I am so not ready for Armageddon

[Olmec Donald]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:54 PM, Orthodox Christian said:

Why would there be a need for animal sacrifice when Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was the final, ultimate sacrifice rendering the OT sacrificial worship obsolete. I can't understand how any Christian tradition could reinstate it.

My understanding is that the LDS assumption that there will be a (brief) return to animal sacrifice by the lineal Jewish priests, the Kohanim, is based on this LDS scripture, about the restoration of the Aaronic (or Levitical) priesthood:

"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness."  - D&C 13

Personally I'm not sure that "a resumption of animal sacrifice" is the only possible interpretation of the part I bolded.

20 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Is there a need to restore something that is obsolete, that serves no purpose, new wine in old skins comes to mind. What can it symbolise, when the sacrifice made by Christ is the ultimate? What can it point to or be a type of now that Christ has died for us once and for all, and His great work has been completed for us in His glorious Resurrection? To restore any kind of symbolic animal sacrifice surely would mean nothing and actually would be akin to throwing the salvific work of the Lord in His face. 

I agree that the resumption of animal sacrifice seems totally unnecessary. 

However it is my understanding that not ALL of the offerings made by the Levitical priests in the Old Testament involved animal sacrifice, and even for those that normally did, a poor person could offer something less expensive like flour.  So, maybe not. 

[speculation] Perhaps this "offering" will not be physical at all, but will be more along the lines of "a broken heart and a contrite spirit".  I have heard it taught that the Jewish people will recognize Jesus as their Messiah when He returns.  Zechariah chapter 13, verse 6:  "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."  [/speculation]

*  *  *

And by the way, welcome!

Edited December 16, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

A possible offering will be a record of their work for the dead:

Quote

24 Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand; and who can abide the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/128?lang=eng

[Orthodox Christian]

Thank you all for your interesting replies. I realise that the links you have sent me etc are thoughts and teachings of LDS leaders and theologians therefore they reflect LDS thinking. I, on the other hand, as an Orthodox turn to Holy Scripture in the form of the Bible to look for answers to challenging questions.

I was going to quote chapter and verse, but I am not, instead I commend to you from the New Testament the epistle to the Hebrews where the very reasons why the Temple (Tabernacle) and animal sacrifices are obsolete and the our new and everlasting Temple is our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, through Whom, and by whose flesh and blood we can boldly approach the Throne of Grace. He is our High Priest and Mediator before God, having been the perfect sacrifice for us. I don't want to use my own words but the words of the Spirit inspired Scripture are available are available to us all therefore I commend them to you in good faith. 

[Calm]

The Doctrine and Covenants that several of us have referred to are, we believe, revealed scripture to living prophets, much as the Bible is.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Calm

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you all for your interesting replies. I realise that the links you have sent me etc are thoughts and teachings of LDS leaders and theologians therefore they reflect LDS thinking. I, on the other hand, as an Orthodox turn to Holy Scripture in the form of the Bible to look for answers to challenging questions.

You should realize that most of the links given here that you refer to as "thoughts and teachings of LDS leaders and theologians" are not merely thoughts and teachings (except where there may have been links to lesson materials and suchlike), but link to scripture passages.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem not to be aware that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds not only the Bible as the Word of God, but also other works regarded as on a par with it. These are the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These, along with the Bible, are referred to among us as the Standard Works. 

I know that other Christians don't consider these other works to be scripture equal to the Bible, but when dealing with LDS it might be important to be aware that we have them and hold them in high regard. To fully understand us, you might want to read about them, at least, especially the Book of Mormon. You might even consider reading the Book of Mormon, or a part of it, anyway. But at a minimum, you ought to read Joseph Smith's Testimony, which is available online HERE. It's not a particularly long read, and illustrates the nature of the LDS church as not just a reinterpretation of the New Testament Christian Church, but a revelatory restoration of that church in the latter days.

2 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I was going to quote chapter and verse, but I am not, instead I commend to you from the New Testament the epistle to the Hebrews where the very reasons why the Temple (Tabernacle) and animal sacrifices are obsolete and the our new and everlasting Temple is our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, through Whom, and by whose flesh and blood we can boldly approach the Throne of Grace. He is our High Priest and Mediator before God, having been the perfect sacrifice for us. I don't want to use my own words but the words of the Spirit inspired Scripture are available are available to us all therefore I commend them to you in good faith. 

We do revere and use the Bible, and we're well aware that the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ. This does make all the sacrifices (and not just the animal sacrifices) obsolete, but for those who would not accept that Jesus was the Messiah (i.e. the Jews), they consider themselves to be still subject to the Law of Moses. I think that in the end, their efforts to be faithful to their understanding of it will be counted to them as righteousness, though of course in the end all men everywhere will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ. 

You might find it interesting (if you don't know it already), that there is an effort underway preparing very quietly for the resumption of the sacrifices required in the Old Testament in Israel -- this in preparation for the time when the Temple is re-erected. You can read about this in a few places, but one is here: 

Update on the Building of the Third Temple

This dovetails very nicely with the revelation that Joseph Smith received in connection with the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood in 1829, codified as Section 13 in the Doctrine and Covenants. These are the words that John the Baptist spoke when he conferred the Aaronic priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery - which was an actual visitation. 

"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness." (D&C 13:1)

The part bolded and italicized by me above is the part which seems to relate to the current movement of restoring the sacrifices in Israel.

Now, assuming that they actually do manage to restore the sacrifices in Jerusalem, will that mean that God will accept their sacrifices in accordance with the Law of Moses in the same way that he accepted them before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? I'm sure that He will not -- because that Law was fulfilled -- but what the resumption of the sacrifices will serve as will be a "sign of the times" in connection with the Second Coming of Christ.

It's my personal opinion that the attempt by the Jews to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem (which presumably will be built upon the Temple Mount where the Muslim Dome of the Rock now stands) will trigger the war which culminates in the Lord's Second Coming.

[Orthodox Christian]

I had Mormon friends many years ago. I read the Book of Mormon and was exposed to The Doctrine and Covenants and other works, so I am aware that you hold other works sacred. However, I still stand by my earlier post, and let the Word of God speak for itself. 

[sunstoned]

On 12/4/2021 at 3:34 PM, rodheadlee said:

I remember duck and cover from elementary school during the cold war. 

We had those drills too.  It use to scare me.  Not much has changed.

[sunstoned]

On 12/7/2021 at 1:00 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

We knew that our sole responsibility was to slow down any Soviet invasion, this so both the German “Army’s, Air Force”, along with the U.S. and NATO’s, “Army’s, Air Force”, so they could attempt to make their stand, on the West Side of the “Rhine River”. We were supposed to fight and die, giving everyone in the NATO Forces to blow up all bridges along the Rhine River, in the event it was a “Conventional War”, with “Tanks and Infantry”. The Soviet would probably be opposed to using NUKES, since they would want to inhabit the land and infrastructure should they were able to take control if they could. Historically, for centuries, the Rhine River has been an effective stopgap for many invading forces, including Rome.   
 

The most unnerving part of our mission, while living and stationed there, was our hope was that our families could be evacuated soon enough, so they would not find themselves suddenly living on a battlefield. So we were always very aware that our families, located just off base, were “like us all”, only about 20 miles from the border we patrolled. An great object lesson to remember, for those who never served, or use our service to this Nation, as a punchline in any and all “bad jokes”. The border was a very high black fence that was dubbed the “Iron Curtain”. This fence located about 50 meters inside of East Germany. It was not there to keep people out, but designed to keep people in. The fence had mines located (or mounted) on the inside of the fence, so that if someone seeking to escape, would meet with shrapnel, and death. The purpose of having the fence located  inside the real border, was to instill the idea into the heads of those seeking freedom, into “believing they were in the clear, and free”. This way they would drop their guard. This would allow the Soviet’s, or East German’s they trusted, to open fire. This way they could kill escapees, without causing an international incident. Once, I decided to go down to the actual border, marked with simple white posts, while I pretended to have engine problems with my Jeep. Suddenly, two Soviet Military soldiers pulled up, one using binoculars, (although I was only about 50 meters away) so I covered my name tag, while the other pointed an AK-47 right at me. BTW, having an AK-47 pointed at you, at such short range, is very intimidating; VERY INTIMIDATING! Also, being a Sargent in the Army, I could have been busted, so (to say the least), I never spoke of it, nor did the guy which I outranked. Of course, I should have not have done this with someone who had to follow orders. But, it was quite a rush, and really a stupid thing to do. 
 

Anyway, sorry once again for the long winder history lessons, with my added commentary about my service in the Army. I know that I do not write well, and should limit the size of my posts, which are not very popular to most. I know better than to post threads or replies so long. I am trying to stop rambling on so much. I know I do not posses the skills that endear myself to this world meant for the scholarly, and those with considerable “education, wit, and charm”. I am trying to limit myself to few sentences, and the Social Forums of many websites. I have thankfully dropped out of many forums like this one. But, I just thought, with this topic, I had a chance to contribute, both due to study, and actual experience. 
 

Anyway, I thank you for your reply to my post. Also, I pray you have a Merry Christmas, also health and happiness to all those you love. 

Thank you for your service.

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

We had those drills too.  It use to scare me.  Not much has changed.

In the last two weeks, we've had drills for "lockdown" in two different elementary schools I sub'd at. Where an actual policeman would open each of the rooms up and let us know all is well now. Maybe because of the anniversary of the Sandy Hook Massacre.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

In the last two weeks, we've had drills for "lockdown" in two different elementary schools I sub'd at. Where an actual policeman would open each of the rooms up and let us know all is well now. Maybe because of the anniversary of the Sandy Hook Massacre.

Yeah, there appear to have been some hoax school threats made today on Tik Tok if I deciphered the headlines correctly. 
 

If you ever want to get depressed, read the list of school shootings on wiki.  I wonder how complete it is, hopefully very and there aren’t more out there. There were five or six last month, though one was a misfire by a woman looking for something in her purse and somehow setting off her gun instead. No one hurt. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

In the last two weeks, we've had drills for "lockdown" in two different elementary schools I sub'd at. Where an actual policeman would open each of the rooms up and let us know all is well now. Maybe because of the anniversary of the Sandy Hook Massacre.

There have been a rash of threats against several schools lately and talk of a “National School Shooting” day. A few schools closed temporarily and security is being tightened at others. It is probably nothing but who knows? We are averaging about one school shooting a week. America is #1 at school shootings and we are not losing that honor!

https://kottke.org/18/11/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-regularly-happens

[Stargazer]

On 12/16/2021 at 11:29 PM, Orthodox Christian said:

I had Mormon friends many years ago. I read the Book of Mormon and was exposed to The Doctrine and Covenants and other works, so I am aware that you hold other works sacred. However, I still stand by my earlier post, and let the Word of God speak for itself. 

Of course! One would not expect you to start quoting uniquely LDS scripture to us in order to illustrate or support your own points. But in fact you could, since the Bible and these LDS works don't actually work at cross-purposes, any more than Matthew falsifies Luke, despite whatever apparent differences in some of their details there may be.

When I am discussing the gospel of Jesus Christ with someone unfamiliar with Latter-day scripture, I will generally restrict myself to the Bible. But you should understand that when someone asks a Latter-day Saint about our "take" on a point of faith, completeness frequently requires that we refer also to these other scriptures. Since you're familiar with them already, even if not erudite, it should enable you to better understand how we get from A to B in some cases, when they are used.

Do I understand correctly if it seems to me that you largely disregard the books of the Old Testament as a source of doctrine?

[Orthodox Christian]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Of course! One would not expect you to start quoting uniquely LDS scripture to us in order to illustrate or support your own points. But in fact you could, since the Bible and these LDS works don't actually work at cross-purposes, any more than Matthew falsifies Luke, despite whatever apparent differences in some of their details there may be.

When I am discussing the gospel of Jesus Christ with someone unfamiliar with Latter-day scripture, I will generally restrict myself to the Bible. But you should understand that when someone asks a Latter-day Saint about our "take" on a point of faith, completeness frequently requires that we refer also to these other scriptures. Since you're familiar with them already, even if not erudite, it should enable you to better understand how we get from A to B in some cases, when they are used.

Do I understand correctly if it seems to me that you largely disregard the books of the Old Testament as a source of doctrine?

Good morning Stargazer, no we don't disregard the Old Testament at all. It is the basis of our Christian faith. How many times did our Lord refer to it and how many times was it pointed out that Christ was the fulfillment of. No the OT and Psalms which are prayed daily are very precious to us. 

[Orthodox Christian]

2 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Good morning Stargazer, no we don't disregard the Old Testament at all. It is the basis of our Christian faith. How many times did our Lord refer to it and how many times was it pointed out that Christ was the fulfillment of. No the OT and Psalms which are prayed daily are very precious to us. 

It is also fair to mention that when we discuss the Scriptures we may quote the Holy Father's of the Church, and many of the Saints of Orthodoxy. 

[sunstoned]

On 12/17/2021 at 10:38 AM, Tacenda said:

In the last two weeks, we've had drills for "lockdown" in two different elementary schools I sub'd at. Where an actual policeman would open each of the rooms up and let us know all is well now. Maybe because of the anniversary of the Sandy Hook Massacre.

It just blows my mind that active shooter drills are needed.  I am so concerned about our society.  

[Calm]

On 12/7/2021 at 1:43 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

We have weathered so much, which grants me much strength. This Christmas should, and will be great. My wife, children, and grandchildren”, are worried about my surgery on the 28th.

Thinking of you, Bill.

[sunstoned]

On 12/26/2021 at 7:48 AM, Moneymaking said:

Unfortunate result of the times. Unlike the Atom Bomb drills, these at least have some use.

So true.

[Tacenda]

On 12/21/2021 at 10:32 PM, sunstoned said:

It just blows my mind that active shooter drills are needed.  I am so concerned about our society.  

A couple of years ago, the schools started having you show ID through a camera before allowing you through the main doors. It was more strict back then because of several school shootings. But it's become lax where they don't have me show my ID, which I'd gladly do. I just tell them I'm sub'g for the day. But maybe for others they are more strict, but wish they'd ID me as well.  

[Kenngo1969]

On 12/26/2021 at 7:47 AM, Moneymaking said:

I have the “ Hiker” model. That thing can make Champaign out of sewer water. Great device!

Ewwwww!  

   

[rodheadlee]

On 12/26/2021 at 6:47 AM, Moneymaking said:

I have the “ Hiker” model. That thing can make Champaign out of sewer water. Great device!

Cool. What brand?