“Wishing to be together does not make it d as so.”

[mfbukowski]

On 10/3/2021 at 11:28 AM, Duncan said:

it isn't a guarantee that your marriage will last into the eternities, if your marriage is terrible here but you don't get divorced I highly doubt God will honor it into the next life. If you want a forever marriage there then work on it here. I know some couples that I hope to God above their temple marriage doesn't last because who wants to be miserable forever?

The whole idea is to CHANGE THE PEOPLE into people worthy of exaltation; the "marriage" is nothing but an abstract projection of two people who once loved each other.

It's not a bad marriage, it's two people who can't make it work.

[Duncan]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The whole idea is to CHANGE THE PEOPLE into people worthy of exaltation; the "marriage" is nothing but an abstract projection of two people who once loved each other.

It's not a bad marriage, it's two people who can't make it work.

what if they didn't love each other and married for superficial reasons?

isn't that like saying "I didn't break the law, I just failed to keep it"!

[Rivers]

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

I think these blessings far exceed the mundane characterization you present ("go{ing} on walks, watch{ing} old movies, go{ing} to museums of Earth history, and play{ing} pickleball. 

So let’s say a man and woman are civilly married in mortality. They are no longer man and wife in heaven.  They miss out on the full blessings of exaltation.

Can they still play pickle ball together?  Is anything or anyone going to keep them from doing that?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

So let’s say a man and woman are civilly married in mortality. They are no longer man and wife in heaven.  They miss out on the full blessings of exaltation.

Can they still play pickle ball together?  Is anything or anyone going to keep them from doing that?

I doubt anything will interfere with it.

I think we are imagining it all wrong when we imagine that the kingdoms of glory include a lot of minders making sure people don’t break “the Rules”.

Edited October 5, 2021 by The Nehor

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Rivers said:

So let’s say a man and woman are civilly married in mortality. They are no longer man and wife in heaven.  They miss out on the full blessings of exaltation.

Yes.

2 hours ago, Rivers said:

Can they still play pickle ball together?  Is anything or anyone going to keep them from doing that?

Well, we have D&C 130:2, which states that "that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory” (D&C 130:2).

I remember as a child thinking that, when I grew up, I would be able to eat Skittles whenever I want.  At the time, this was - in my view - the pinnacle of life as a grown-up.  Now that I am an adult, it is technically true that I could, if I wanted, eat Skittles every day.  Instead, however, I have far more satisfying things to do and enjoy.  I find intellectual and athletic/physical and creative/artistic pursuits to be fulfilling, but far and above these pastimes is the importance of my relationships with my loved ones.  My wife and children.  My parents and siblings.  So I now look back at my childhood self and am grateful that my parents were there to help me to go school, to set and achieve goals, and to pursue those things that make life truly meaningful and enjoyable.

Talking about picklball in the eternities is, in a way, aking to my childhood preoccupation with Skittles.  There is so much more that the Lord wants to give us.  "But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion.  Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter.  Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him.  To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves."  (D&C 76:114-117.)

We are not currently situated to fully comprehend the breadth and scope of the blessings the Lord has in store for us.  We can, of course, decline these greater blessings when offered to us, and to instead be happy with pickleball and Skittles.  We are told that even the glory of the lowest kingdom, the Telestial, "surpasses all understanding" (D&C 176:89).  But I think it is better for us to exercise faith in God, to trust Him enough to keep His commandments and pursue those blessings he has made available to us.  As Paul stated: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9.)

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 5, 2021 by smac97

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The whole idea is to CHANGE THE PEOPLE into people worthy of exaltation; the "marriage" is nothing but an abstract projection of two people who once loved each other.

It's not a bad marriage, it's two people who can't make it work.

What does worthy mean?

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

what if they didn't love each other and married for superficial reasons?

isn't that like saying "I didn't break the law, I just failed to keep it"!

Well obviously then they were not married. We are talking about temple sealings here.

God can't protect us from our own stupidity 

This is about WHY God gave us temple sealings and their purpose, not frivolous "marriage"

Edited October 5, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Danzo]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

what if they didn't love each other and married for superficial reasons?

isn't that like saying "I didn't break the law, I just failed to keep it"!

It's not why they married that is important, Its whether they want to stay married that is important. People get married for lots of stupid reasons.  My mother in law married my father in law when she was 14 and my father in law was 18.  It was an arranged marriage.  They may have not had much choice on who they married by they had alot of choice over what their marriage was like and whether they would stay married.  They seem to be happily married after more than 50 years

I don't think there will be much to complain about if ones spouse makes it to the celestial kingdom.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

What does worthy mean?

Well I think it varies, and that was what I meant. I see the gospel as a continuum eventually leading to being "worthy" to be sealed and onward.

So one can be worthy for baptism without being worthy to be sealed- yet, but eventually become worthy for that and more.

It's like a staircase- or Jacob's ladder- we go from one level of repentance  or worthlessness,  to another.

I think it is about how far you have come to become like God, REALLY, not necessarily how we may be judged by men. 

That is a different question.

God is really our only judge, imo.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I think it varies, and that was what I meant. I see the gospel as a continuum eventually leading to being "worthy" to be sealed and onward.

So one can be worthy for baptism without being worthy to be sealed- yet, but eventually become worthy for that and more.

It's like a staircase- or Jacob's ladder- we go from one level of repentance  or worthlessness,  to another.

I think it is about how far you have come to become like God, REALLY, not necessarily how we may be judged by men. 

That is a different question.

God is really our only judge, imo.

I would agree that God is our Judge.  But who sets the worthiness standard now?  For Latter-day Saints it is the Church and its leaders.  But are they really able to judge what worthy means?

[smac97]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

What does worthy mean?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/missionary-preparation/personal-worthiness?lang=eng

https://askgramps.org/category/personal-searching/worthiness/

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

It's not why they married that is important, Its whether they want to stay married that is important. People get married for lots of stupid reasons.  My mother in law married my father in law when she was 14 and my father in law was 18.  It was an arranged marriage.  They may have not had much choice on who they married by they had alot of choice over what their marriage was like and whether they would stay married.  They seem to be happily married after more than 50 years

I don't think there will be much to complain about if ones spouse makes it to the celestial kingdom.

Do you mind if I ask if their marriage was arranged by LDS parents?

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I would agree that God is our Judge.  But who sets the worthiness standard now?  For Latter-day Saints it is the Church and its leaders.  But are they really able to judge what worthy means?

Well they have limited insight but also limited authority.

They are mostly "good enough" to make the decisions they make- baby steps in relation to eternity- like whether or not this 8 year old has "repented " enough by obeying Mommy to understand what obedience is, or that the wild teenager has  learned mostly how to control himself, or that the hormone drenched couple really can restrain themselves when needed, because that can be important in marriage.

The church "judge" only makes decisions really only up to his ability, by which he himself is judged.

As a bishop I remember some cliffhanger decisions I had to make regarding marriages that I still wonder about whether my decision was "correct", even after a lot of prayer.

But my opinion either way did not affect huge issues concerning humanity, but relatively small issues in terms of eternity 

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well they have limited insight but also limited authority.

They are mostly "good enough" to make the decisions they make- baby steps in relation to eternity- like whether or not this 8 year old has "repented " enough by obeying Mommy to understand what obedience is, or that the wild teenager has  learned mostly how to control himself, or that the hormone drenched couple really can restrain themselves when needed, because that can be important in marriage.

The church "judge" only makes decisions really only up to his ability, by which he himself is judged.

As a bishop I remember some cliffhanger decisions I had to make regarding marriages that I still wonder about whether my decision was "correct", even after a lot of prayer.

But my opinion either way did not affect huge issues concerning humanity, but relatively small issues in terms of eternity 

From that perspective how would you interpret Matthew 16:18-19

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

I would read this as the Lord placing tremendous trust in His servants.  While I believe that decisions based on lack on knowledge or understanding can be changed, it does sound like the Lord places power and authority into the hands of His servants and stands behind them.

[Teancum]

34 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well they have limited insight but also limited authority.

They are mostly "good enough" to make the decisions they make- baby steps in relation to eternity- like whether or not this 8 year old has "repented " enough by obeying Mommy to understand what obedience is, or that the wild teenager has  learned mostly how to control himself, or that the hormone drenched couple really can restrain themselves when needed, because that can be important in marriage.

The church "judge" only makes decisions really only up to his ability, by which he himself is judged.

As a bishop I remember some cliffhanger decisions I had to make regarding marriages that I still wonder about whether my decision was "correct", even after a lot of prayer.

But my opinion either way did not affect huge issues concerning humanity, but relatively small issues in terms of eternity 

Ok like this.  We could get along!  😁

[Ipod Touch]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:57 AM, Rivers said:

I’m still a bit confused about the doctrine of sealing.  I understand that sealing extends marital status into eternity.  But what is it that keeps couples apart if they are not sealed?  
 

The doctrine of sealing has to mean a lot more than simply “being together.”  There’s got to be better language to discuss this doctrine.

The way I like to think of it is this:

Sealing is like an in-game XBOX achievement.  If maintained, it unlocks the ability to craft spirit children.

Without the achievement, the "Craft Children" button remains greyed out in the eternal crafting menu.

[ksfisher]

18 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

The way I like to think of it is this:

Sealing is like an in-game XBOX achievement.  If maintained, it unlocks the ability to craft spirit children.

Without the achievement, the "Craft Children" button remains greyed out in the eternal crafting menu.

There seems to be more to it than this to the sealing ordinance.  Parents are sealed to children as well as husbands to wives.  If the sealing ordinance was only about "the ability to craft spirit children" then I don't think there would be any need to seal children to their parents. 

[mfbukowski]

48 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

From that perspective how would you interpret Matthew 16:18-19

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

I would read this as the Lord placing tremendous trust in His servants.  While I believe that decisions based on lack on knowledge or understanding can be changed, it does sound like the Lord places power and authority into the hands of His servants and stands behind them.

Well yes, but they are still men who make mistakes.

How does God then deal with injustice?

Does he let it stand for eternity? Say perhaps an unjust excommication based on a liar's testimony ?

I think not

 

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well yes, but they are still men who make mistakes.

How does God then deal with injustice?

Does he let it stand for eternity? Say perhaps an unjust excommication based on a liar's testimony ?

I think not

 

I agree.  I just don't think it will be God fixing all the mistakes.  I believe he'll give those who made the mistakes the opportunity and ability to correct them. 

[Rivers]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I doubt anything will interfere with it.

I think we are imagining it all wrong when we imagine that the kingdoms of glory include a lot of minders making sure people don’t break “the Rules”.

So when we sing “Families can be together forever,” are we oversimplifying the doctrine of sealing?  
It is clear to me that sealing is much more than just being with each other.

 

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Rivers said:

So when we sing “Families can be together forever,” are we oversimplifying the doctrine of sealing?  
It is clear to me that sealing is much more than just being with each other.

 

A Primary song simplifying a gospel principle? I am pretty sure that would never happen.

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, Rivers said:

So when we sing “Families can be together forever,” are we oversimplifying the doctrine of sealing?  
It is clear to me that sealing is much more than just being with each other.

 

I think the doctrine of being "one" as Christ teaches in John 17 is instructive when trying to understand the sealing ordinance.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

It seems as though Christ is teaching more than just physical proximity, but a type of relationship, or indwelling, enjoyed by celestial being.

[Rivers]

Just now, The Nehor said:

A Primary song simplifying a gospel principle? I am pretty sure that would never happen.

Of course not.

[Rivers]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I think the doctrine of being "one" as Christ teaches in John 17 is instructive when trying to understand the sealing ordinance.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

It seems as though Christ is teaching more than just physical proximity, but a type of relationship, or indwelling, enjoyed by celestial being.

I think John 17 just might be the most important chapter in all of scripture.

[The Nehor]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:09 AM, mfbukowski said:

God can't protect us from our own stupidity 

Uh-oh. Oops.

So where do I submit my resignation?