“Wishing to be together does not make it d as so.”

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My brother is married with the choice not to have children. As is my BIL.  

IMO it’s not ok to judge what others want as less than.  We are all going to be happy where we end up. 

I don't blame some people for not wanting to bring children into this crazy 🌎. And some may know if it's the right fit. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Tacenda

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My brother is married with the choice not to have children. As is my BIL.  

IMO it’s not ok to judge what others want as less than.  We are all going to be happy where we end up. 

It's not about judging.  People have their agency and can do what they want.
It's about recognizing that blessings require obedience to applicable laws.  By intentionally choosing to not have children there are blessings they cannot obtain, including some they may not realize yet.
For a believing member I don't see how that thinking could be reconciled.  For a non-member I don't see that it matters much.

But you are correct, they may be happier that way.

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, Fether said:

I would add… Neighbors that can live together as family should they wish

Oh but according to Joseph Fielding Smith they become Ken and Barbi dolls.  Their sexuality is taken away.

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You can make any  contract you want with anyone you want.

But is God behind it?

Who's going to stand by your contract after you're dead?

And give you all HE has?

So you can err on either side, unless the church really is false.

Pascal's Wager.

Best wishes, and I do mean wishes!

Occam's razor....

[The Nehor]

I suspect there is some experience or state of being in being sealed that is denied to those who are not sealed. Some connection? Mental? Emotional? A fundamental identification with their goals and desires? All of the above?

Not sure. Pretty sure it is not about sex or intimacy as we understand it and I doubt that either of those is denied to the lower kingdoms. The teaching some espouse that there will be no desire for it in the lower kingdoms might be true but I doubt it is forbidden.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Oh but according to Joseph Fielding Smith they become Ken and Barbi dolls.  Their sexuality is taken away.

I doubt that will be how the restriction is maintained.

God has far more effective ways of preventing such activities.  
Moses 5:11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Occam's razor....

As a scientific idea it has some merit as it tends to increase testability. As a way of determining truth in general Occam’s Razor is not a handy guide for choosing between hypotheses. In general the more we learn the more complex the reality of nature tends to be. Saying that supernature should be simple in contrast seems difficult to justify.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Oh but according to Joseph Fielding Smith they become Ken and Barbi dolls.  Their sexuality is taken away.

More likely that the desire fades rather than any attempts at neutering or making them androgynous. Otherwise the completeness of the physical resurrection seems to come into doubt.

[pogi]

23 hours ago, cinepro said:

I agree the whole "being together forever" thing doesn't make sense the more you think about it.

Suppose my wife and I end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. If we both have memories of our Earth life and can find each other, then as far as I can tell, the only thing that would change is that we won't be able to have sex. We can still go on walks, watch old movies, go to museums of Earth history, and play pickleball. But no sex.

But maybe it's set up so I won't be able to be with my wife. There will be special segregated areas where people can't reunite with loved ones from Earth in the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdom. So we remember what happened on Earth, but we're around different people. As eternal beings, wouldn't we just eventually...move on? I mean, I'd always remember what happened, but after a billion years, wouldn't I eventually make new friends? The doctrine of sealing and togetherness seems to imply that out of the billions of people who have lived, the one you find and choose to marry, and the few that you give birth to, are the only ones you can be happy with for the rest of eternity. It's a romantic idea, and I wouldn't show this to my wife, but I'm not sure it really makes sense. I mean, it's not even true for most people for the few decades we're on Earth (many kids and parents are more than happy to be apart, and spouses often find out within a few years or decades that they're happier not being together).

 I think of the ineffable peace and joy that fills my soul as I approach oneness (as imperfect as it is in mortality) with God, and can only imagine how it might be after being cleansed, perfected, and exalted via the at-one-ment to experience that level of oneness with God.  As divine as that experience will be, I imagine that the intimate level of oneness that we have the potential of experiencing with our spouse via the fruition of the sealing power in exaltation will be even more special. 

The intimate experience of being completely at-one with another individual for all eternity is the pinnacle of joy.  Multiply that experience with innumerable at-one bonds with children and it is beyond expression.  It is a level of social intimacy and fulfilment, peace, and joy that no one else can come close to experiencing in mortality.   

Those who disagree don't need any cherubim and a flaming sword to keep them from being eternally committed to any single individual.   They will separate themselves.  I agree with you that this level of oneness with a spouse is something that is not experienced in mortality, and that we don't have just one soul-mate and that we have the potential to be happy with any number of people.   You are also right, that many spouses are happier not being together and usually end up in divorce - which doesn't account for those who stay together but are unhappy together.  I suppose this very fallen and mortal sentiment that we don't need to commit to any individual to experience the pinnacle of joy will carry-on in the after life for those who are not exalted.  That is what I think will keep them apart. Eternity is a LONG time after all.  Do we really need to commit to just one relationship forever when there is potential for other fulfilling relationships elsewhere - especially considering that we can't benefit from the sealing power of these relationships and physical intimacy, or the fruit of children?  Staying committed to any single person, with that line of thinking, for eternity simply doesn't make sense.  However, for those who do see the vision and potential fulfilment that such a relationship can bring, the sealing power is available to them. 

There is something divine about constancy in relationships.  The unwavering constancy in God's love and commitment to us despite our follies inspires faith and devotion to Him.  If such constancy with another individual is rooted in divine oneness and perfection via the at-one-ment, I don't know what could be better, honestly.  What could bring more joy?   

Quote

So then we get to the other stuff, like eternal increase and getting our own planets. But from what I can tell, a lot of people aren't really interested in "increase" beyond two or three, and they're not interested in managing massive projects. They just want to watch TV and hang out on the internet. If we have the same personalities in the afterlife as we do here on Earth, I'm not seeing a planet of would-be managers of planets managing eternal increase.

I just asked the question, "what could bring more joy?"  TV perhaps?  The internet?  I am less than inspired. 

I agree, a lot of people aren't interested in eternal increase and just want to hang out on-line or watch tv.  This level of aspiration is less-then inspiring and often leads to depression, isolation, anxiety, and lacks true intimacy that comes with committed relationships that work towards fulfilling our greatest potential as an eternal unit. 

You and I both know that what we want and what we are capable of are two different things.  What we claim to want does not always bring us the most joy either, and is usually not what we really want deep down.

Edited October 4, 2021 by pogi

[Teancum]

49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I doubt that will be how the restriction is maintained.

God has far more effective ways of preventing such activities.  
Moses 5:11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

I doubt any of what is being discussed on this thread will have any basis in future reality. But JFS was an apostle and prophet. Thus he out ranks your opinion.

[Teancum]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As a scientific idea it has some merit as it tends to increase testability. As a way of determining truth in general Occam’s Razor is not a handy guide for choosing between hypotheses. In general the more we learn the more complex the reality of nature tends to be. Saying that supernature should be simple in contrast seems difficult to justify.

I think it is pretty handy especially when discussing things like this thread is discussing.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I doubt any of what is being discussed on this thread will have any basis in future reality. But JFS was an apostle and prophet. Thus he out ranks your opinion.

Sure, why not.  It's not like the Ken & Barbie theory is completely absent from all scripture and known revelation.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Oh but according to Joseph Fielding Smith they become Ken and Barbi dolls.  Their sexuality is taken away.

What does sex have to do with being a family?

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

What does sex have to do with being a family?

You cannot make babies without sex.

[Fether]

51 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You cannot make babies without sex.

We aren’t talking about making babies. We are talking about being an eternal family 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

We aren’t talking about making babies. We are talking about being an eternal family 

What is the Church doctrine?

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

I think it is pretty handy especially when discussing things like this thread is discussing.

Of course it is.

For you.

Because "It is all made up" is shorter and involves fewer complexities than virtually any argument you face. It is like having a bunch of cavalry while your opponent has none and arguing that a "no pikeman" rule seems useful. It is (for you), but it is unlikely your opponent will concede and let you have your way.

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Of course it is.

For you.

Because "It is all made up" is shorter and involves fewer complexities than virtually any argument you face. It is like having a bunch of cavalry while your opponent has none and arguing that a "no pikeman" rule seems useful. It is (for you), but it is unlikely your opponent will concede and let you have your way.

And the same really holds true four you does it not? Well in reverse anyway.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And the same really holds true four you does it not? Well in reverse anyway.

There is an Occam’s Rusty Dull Hacksaw rule?

[Fether]

58 minutes ago, Teancum said:

What is the Church doctrine?

Pertaining to what? What signifies a family? Or how to have babies?

[smac97]

On 10/3/2021 at 11:57 AM, Rivers said:

I’m still a bit confused about the doctrine of sealing.  I understand that sealing extends marital status into eternity.  But what is it that keeps couples apart if they are not sealed?  

I think that is the natural way of things.  A marital relationship entered into in this life must be preserved by affirmative divine act.  See D&C 132:7:

Quote

All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

The same goes for the resurrection of the physical body, I think.  It won't happen of its own accord, but must instead be wrought by God.

On 10/3/2021 at 11:57 AM, Rivers said:

The doctrine of sealing has to mean a lot more than simply “being together.”  There’s got to be better language to discuss this doctrine.

Yep.  Plenty of stuff out there about this.  A decent starting point is the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Sealing

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 10/3/2021 at 12:10 PM, Rivers said:

So two people can be in proximity and not be in an eternal union?  

It appears so.  See D&C 131:

Quote

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 10/3/2021 at 1:09 PM, cinepro said:

I agree the whole "being together forever" thing doesn't make sense the more you think about it.

I think it makes about as much sense as any other facet of the Hereafter does.

On 10/3/2021 at 1:09 PM, cinepro said:

Suppose my wife and I end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. If we both have memories of our Earth life and can find each other, then as far as I can tell, the only thing that would change is that we won't be able to have sex. We can still go on walks, watch old movies, go to museums of Earth history, and play pickleball. But no sex.

Romans 8:17 speaks of "children of God" as "heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."  And D&C 84:38 states that "he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him."

See also this EOM entry ("Exaltation") :

Quote

To Latter-day Saints, exaltation is a state that a person can attain in becoming like God-salvation in the ultimate sense (D&C 132:17). Latter-day Saints believe that all mankind (except the sons of perdition) will receive varying degrees of glory in the afterlife. Exaltation is the greatest of all the gifts and attainments possible. It is available only in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and is reserved for members of the Church of the Firstborn. This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and wife. It means not only living in God's presence, but receiving power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection (TPJS, pp. 300-301; D&C 132:19). 

And this one ("Eternal Lives") :

Quote

"Eternal lives" is a term that refers to the right and power to beget children after the resurrection, granted to those who are exalted in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. This is an aspect of eternal progression. "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase" (D&C 131:1-4).

This distinctive doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was taught by Joseph Smith and was especially articulated on May 16-17, 1843, at Ramus, Illinois, where he often visited and preached. Conversing on spiritual topics with a small party of friends, the Prophet Joseph Smith shed light on the concept of eternal increase: "Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory" (TPJS, pp. 300-301). Doctrine and Covenants, section 131,is largely concerned with this subject, and was first included in 1876.

A husband and wife who are married in the new and everlasting covenant and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise under the proper priesthood authority are promised that they shall inherit "thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers," and their "glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever" (D&C 132:19). They are likened to gods, having no end. They share in the promises of eternal posterity made to Abraham and Sarah: "Both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars" (D&C 132:30).

Brigham Young, in 1862, spoke of eternal lives, stating that the opportunity to become heirs to all things, and to become a "King of kings and Lord of lords,…is promised to the faithful, and are but so many stages in that ceaseless progression of eternal lives…. There will be no end to the increase of the faithful" (JD 10:5). He described such a situation as a pleasing one, creating happiness beyond mortal comprehension. 

And this one ("Eternal Progression") :

Quote

The principle of eternal progression cannot be precisely defined or comprehended, yet it is fundamental to the LDS worldview. The phrase "eternal progression" first occurs in the discourses of Brigham Young. It embodies many concepts taught by Joseph Smith, especially in his king follett discourse. It is based on the proposition that "there is no such thing as principle, power, wisdom, knowledge, life, position, or anything that can be imagined, that remains stationary-they must increase or decrease" (Young, JD 1:350).

Progression takes many forms. In one sense, eternal progression refers to everything that people learn and experience by their choices as they progress from premortal life, to mortality, to postmortal spirit life, and to a resurrected state in the presence of God. Personal progression is possible in each of these states, but not the same kind of progression. Progression apparently occurred in the premortal life, for most spirits there chose to follow Christ and some were noble and great, while others chose to follow Lucifer. Entering mortality affords opportunities for further progression. Obtaining a physical body is a crucial step, enabling a person to experience physical sensations of all kinds and to progress in knowledge and understanding, all of which will rise with the person in the Resurrection (D&C 130:18). Brigham Young taught that even in mortality, "We are in eternity" (JD 10:22), and the object of this existence is "to learn to enjoy more, and to increase in knowledge and experience" (JD 14:228). "When we have learned to live according to the full value of the life we now possess, we are prepared for further advancement in the scale of eternal progression-for a more glorious and exalted sphere" (JD 9:168).

And 1 Corinthians 2:9:

Quote

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

• "{A}ll that my Father hath shall be given unto him..."
• "Exaltation . . . called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and wife. It means not only living in God's presence, but receiving power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection."
• "'"Eternal lives' ... refers to the right and power to beget children after the resurrection..."
• "A husband and wife who are married in the new and everlasting covenant and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise under the proper priesthood authority are promised that they shall inherit 'thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers,' and their 'glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever...'"
• "Brigham Young . . . described such a situation as a pleasing one, creating happiness beyond mortal comprehension."
• "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

I think these blessings far exceed the mundane characterization you present ("go{ing} on walks, watch{ing} old movies, go{ing} to museums of Earth history, and play{ing} pickleball").

On 10/3/2021 at 1:09 PM, cinepro said:

But maybe it's set up so I won't be able to be with my wife. There will be special segregated areas where people can't reunite with loved ones from Earth in the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdom. So we remember what happened on Earth, but we're around different people. As eternal beings, wouldn't we just eventually...move on? I mean, I'd always remember what happened, but after a billion years, wouldn't I eventually make new friends? The doctrine of sealing and togetherness seems to imply that out of the billions of people who have lived, the one you find and choose to marry, and the few that you give birth to, are the only ones you can be happy with for the rest of eternity. It's a romantic idea, and I wouldn't show this to my wife, but I'm not sure it really makes sense. I mean, it's not even true for most people for the few decades we're on Earth (many kids and parents are more than happy to be apart, and spouses often find out within a few years or decades that they're happier not being together).

I think the Lord wants to give us as much happiness and growth as we are willing and able to accept.

On 10/3/2021 at 1:09 PM, cinepro said:

So then we get to the other stuff, like eternal increase and getting our own planets. But from what I can tell, a lot of people aren't really interested in "increase" beyond two or three, and they're not interested in managing massive projects. They just want to watch TV and hang out on the internet. If we have the same personalities in the afterlife as we do here on Earth, I'm not seeing a planet of would-be managers of planets managing eternal increase.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."  (1 Cor. 13:12.)

Thanks,

-Smac

[mgy401]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

You cannot make babies without sex.

Well, there was that one time . . .

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect there is some experience or state of being in being sealed that is denied to those who are not sealed. Some connection? Mental? Emotional? A fundamental identification with their goals and desires? All of the above?

Not sure. Pretty sure it is not about sex or intimacy as we understand it and I doubt that either of those is denied to the lower kingdoms. The teaching some espouse that there will be no desire for it in the lower kingdoms might be true but I doubt it is forbidden.

I believe it might be an intimate spiritual connection yin yang thing with the other half of humanity.   I am convinced that men and women are quite different in consistent patterns, though today some may debate that.  If counseling women is so different than counseling men as a bishop I cannot imagine how much harder it would be for a God or Goddess to understand the deepest pains and heartaches of the other sex without having intimate experience of how their minds, bodies, hearts and inclinations are similar and different in their distinctive areas of being in the world

Very few understand the other sex as deeply as they could- the other half of humanity - without being one with at least one representative of that sex for a long long time.

I have only been married a bit over 40 years and I still learn more every day.  I think in a few hundred years more, I will start really "getting" it.    But in a thousand I think I might be at least half way there...