Beards

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

Members who are called to serve in the temple are asked to be clean shaven.  You don't have to shave to attend the temple though.   

I think it's a carryover of the beard policy at BYU honestly.

It actually has a more recent (and interesting) history than that. I served in a temple whilst living in America in the early 2000s, and universal 'dress and grooming' standards for temple workers were only introduced then. They came with a cover letter from the Temple Department that stated that this decision had been taken in response to repeated complaints from members that some temples had rules and some didn't. The general impression for me was this: complain, and we'll give you rules you'll probably regret.

I had a beard at the time and was also acting in a film that one of my mates was making as an entrance requirement for a film degree at uni. I explained to my supervisor that shaving my beard was not an option till the film was completed. I thought then it would be a few weeks' time, but it actually dragged out for several months.

Many workers in our temple had had a beautiful variety of facial hair before this change, and they clearly resented my showing up each week with a beard. I always thought they should just have quit en masse. Imagine the phone call from the temple president to the temple department:

TP: 'We're sorry, but we've had to cancel most endowment sessions this week'.

TD: 'What? Why?'

TP: 'We've lost nearly half of our male ordinance workers'.

TD: 'How did that happen?!'

TP: 'You told them you don't want men with facial hair serving in the temple'. 

I feel certain that there would have been a softening of the new 'beard ban' pretty quickly after that!

[JustAnAustralian]

19 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

They came with a cover letter from the Temple Department that stated that this decision had been taken in response to repeated complaints from members that some temples had rules and some didn't.

Interesting.

A temple worker once told me that the rule was in place because ordinance workers are meant to be "invisible" to the patron (since the worker is not the focal point of the presentation etc), and beards would detract from that. Does that track with what the discussions sounded like at the time?

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

A temple worker once told me that the rule was in place because ordinance workers are meant to be "invisible" to the patron (since the worker is not the focal point of the presentation etc), and beards would detract from that. Does that track with what the discussions sounded like at the time?

Nope, not at all.

And the 'explanation' you heard is based on a false presumption that facial hair is inherently distracting. In the temple I served in then, it was pretty much on half the male workers (including things like moustaches).

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Nope, not at all.

And the 'explanation' you heard is based on a false presumption that facial hair is inherently distracting. In the temple I served in then, it was pretty much on half the male workers (including things like moustaches).

It is probably quite distracting to patrons who feel the need to sit there composing complaints to the temple presidents and others about how distracting the brothers’ beards are.  So hard with both the presentation and the workers getting in the way of the really important work of judging others’ appearances. 

[JustAnAustralian]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is probably quite distracting to patrons who feel the need to sit there composing complaints to the temple presidents and others about how distracting the brothers’ beards are.  

Maybe it's like Pogi said

14 hours ago, pogi said:

Beards were just way too sexy for women to handle. We had to shave to help them keep their thoughts pure. 

 

[CV75]

20 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I was reading the last couple of pages on the modesty thread and there were a few posts that mentioned beards (or more specifically, the lack of them) in LDS leadership positions.

I was curious about the LDS relationship with beards.

I'd say most "rules" in religion can be categorized as doctrine, principle, rule, or cultural norm. Where does being clean shaven fall? I assume it is a rule for missionaries not to have beards because I've never seen one with facial hair. Why? I've read here that it's against the rules for men at BYU to have beards, too.

Is there any doctrine about this? Religious principle? Or are they just rules and/or cultural norms?

How much push back would someone get for having a beard if they were in a leadership position?

I googled the LDS apostles and none of them have beards. I assume this is a rule for them?

I wonder if LDS missionaries would have more success in cultures/religious areas where beards are looked upon as something positive, such as India, the Middle East, and places with high numbers of Eastern Orthodox.

Finally, what do you all think? Should the LDS church/culture be more open to beards? Or would that let the barbarians in the gate?

(full disclosure: I have a full beard and sometimes it has been as big as Pogi's avatar)

I think it is a rule for certain callings, having its roots in social consideration, but not in cultural norms.

Social norms in grooming and dress is something Christ and His apostles past and present have used as a means of sharing the gospel message, by precept and example.

Push-back for the "non-certain" callings, in my experience, is the rare exception.

I think it is a standard and a rule for the Apostles of the Church. I'm not sure how much this rule has to do with undermining their own success in areas that are less appreciative of a clean-shaven face, whether for religious or geo-political ("anti-West") reasons, but rather with what is considered to be a neutral or expected appearance of them in most instances. This would be the kind of setting where individuals would be more receptive to the message.

I think there are more important ways for the culture to change than worrying about beards. Wherever they are prohibited, I don't see it so much as a cultural matter but an administrative decision by those who hold the keys to administer the governance of the Church (as with Christ and the Apostles of old), based on what is considered to be a neutral or expected appearance of those subject to it in most instances.

Edited August 29, 2021 by CV75

[Calm]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

, having its roots in social consideration, but not in cultural norms

Church cultural norms surely

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Church cultural norms surely

To my understanding, “cultural” refers to the accepted mode of life, habit patterns, and the life-style (as expressed though the arts, sciences, technologies, philosophies etc.), while “social” has to do with the relationships among people in the groups that exist within that culture.

Maybe a fine point, but it was the social changes (rebellion against the prevailing philosophy of how people relate to and with each other – most notably on moral issues) in the USA that rendered beards, once the norm or neutral except within prescribed contexts for smaller social groups (such as the military), to suddenly become counter-cultural.

Being clean shaven does not define or dictate a certain lifestyle, but it does facilitate how the saints relate to each other socially (hence the requirement for certain callings formally, and personal interactions informally).

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/28/2021 at 12:22 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I was reading the last couple of pages on the modesty thread and there were a few posts that mentioned beards (or more specifically, the lack of them) in LDS leadership positions.

I was curious about the LDS relationship with beards.

I'd say most "rules" in religion can be categorized as doctrine, principle, rule, or cultural norm. Where does being clean shaven fall? I assume it is a rule for missionaries not to have beards because I've never seen one with facial hair. Why? I've read here that it's against the rules for men at BYU to have beards, too.

Is there any doctrine about this? Religious principle? Or are they just rules and/or cultural norms?

How much push back would someone get for having a beard if they were in a leadership position?

I googled the LDS apostles and none of them have beards. I assume this is a rule for them?

I wonder if LDS missionaries would have more success in cultures/religious areas where beards are looked upon as something positive, such as India, the Middle East, and places with high numbers of Eastern Orthodox.

Finally, what do you all think? Should the LDS church/culture be more open to beards? Or would that let the barbarians in the gate?

(full disclosure: I have a full beard and sometimes it has been as big as Pogi's avatar)

I have often sported facial hair of various styles. Once while a member of a high council I had a mustache, not as prodigious as my Grandfather Piotr’s handlebar, but respectable. After a meeting one night, a good brother made the comment in my hearing, “I never could understand why some people cultivate on their lip what grows wild on their a$$.“ 😜

I thought of responding uncharitably, but didn’t. 😇

I was asked to shave it when I was called as a bishop. No worries…I could always grow it back later. And if it didn’t grow back a had a reliable source for a transplant. 🥸

I was a freshman the last year that BYU allowed beards 1964-65. My roommate **** Phillips and I both had shrubs. His was necessary because it covered severe acne scars. Mine was just for fun. The next year beards were verboten. The reason was that facial hair had become associated with radical protest and violence on campuses. ✌️

Ironically, that year my new roommate and I instigated the only “riot” in BYU history. A campus police car was damaged. It was not political…it was a panty raid from Helaman Halls on Heritage Halls. 😬

It was a hot Fall Friday night and a lot of guys were out of the dorms milling around the quad area. We had a big Sony tape recorder with a PA function. We hung the speakers out the window and started egging on the crowd. “Panty Raid!” became the rallying cry. As we sat laughing in our room, B3223, the mob ascended the hill toward Heritage. Campus police showed up but were badly outnumbered. [edited for consideration of others: I should add that while exciting and fun at the time, we soon realized it could have had serious consequences for everyone. We never did anything like that again]

It made the front page of the Daily Planet…I mean Daily Universe…the next day. The accompanying photo featured a bunch of guys including our Senior Resident Pat Simisky. He was not there as part of the raid, but along with other SRs was trying to get guys to go back to the dorms. He was not pleased with the photo. We were never identified, but now you know.  😲

[edited for respect of others]

Edited August 31, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[strappinglad]

I should start a pool on which GA will be the first to adopt facial hair . It will probably be another 20 years but...

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

After a meeting one night, a good brother made the comment in my hearing, “I never could understand why some people cultivate on their lip what grows wild on their a$$.“ 😂

I wouldn't have found that funny.

The first time I served in a stake presidency, we were one morning discussing a calling, and one of the presidency members said that a certain brother shouldn't be considered because he had a beard. Then he looked straight and me whilst still talking to the stake president: 'Of course, you ignored me when I warned you that Hamba shouldn't be considered for his calling ...'

Afterwards, the stake president walked me out to my car. 'Don't you pay any attention to him', he said. 'The Lord is fine with you'. Sometimes people in the Church act like a$$es in the way they treat others.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/28/2021 at 3:28 PM, Peacefully said:

My temple-attending husband has had a beard on and off for many years. He currently has one. If he were called to a position where he was asked to be clean-shaven, I believe he would do it willingly. So many younger church members in our area have beards now that it doesn’t seem like a big deal anymore. 

It’s not except in some leadership and service positions. All seven Gui sons have had beards from time to time. We have been blessed/cursed with fast-growing heavy beards. One of them treats it as an art form. We have beard growing contests at family reunions. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Interesting.

A temple worker once told me that the rule was in place because ordinance workers are meant to be "invisible" to the patron (since the worker is not the focal point of the presentation etc), and beards would detract from that. Does that track with what the discussions sounded like at the time?

Actually, whether true or not, this makes some sense. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:50 PM, provoman said:

Isn't David O McKay the first Prophet in th 20th century to not sport facial hair?

For most of his life Brother Brigham was sans bush. Brother Joseph is always pictured beardless, but I don’t know what grooming facilities were available on Zion’s Camp or in Liberty Jail. Great subject for a Masters Thesis or FAIR presentation…

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Brother Joseph is always pictured beardless ...

My recollection from a visit to the John Johnson home in Ohio is that the incident of tarring and feathering that occurred there removed much of the prophet's facial hair and even some of the hair on his temples, which is why he thereafter brushed it forwards. No clue if that was a accurate statement.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have often sported facial hair of various styles. Once while a member of a high council I had a mustache, not as prodigious as my Grandfather Piotr’s handlebar, but respectable. After a meeting one night, a good brother made the comment in my hearing, “I never could understand why some people cultivate on their lip what grows wild on their a$$.“ 😜

I thought of responding uncharitably, but didn’t. 😇

I was asked to shave it when I was called as a bishop. No worries…I could always grow it back later. And if it didn’t grow back a had a reliable source for a transplant. 🥸

I was a freshman the last year that BYU allowed beards 1964-65. My roommate and I both had shrubs. His was necessary because it covered severe acne scars. Mine was just for fun. The next year beards were verboten. The reason was that facial hair had become associated with radical protest and violence on campuses. ✌️

Ironically, that year my new roommate and I instigated the only “riot” in BYU history. A campus police car was damaged. It was not political…it was a panty raid from Helaman Halls on Heritage Halls. 😬

It was a hot Fall Friday night and a lot of guys were out of the dorms milling around the quad area. We had a big Sony tape recorder with a PA function. We hung the speakers out the window and started egging on the crowd. ”Panty Raid!” became the rallying cry. As we sat laughing in our room, B3223, the mob ascended the hill toward Heritage. Campus police showed up but were badly outnumbered. There were some successful forays. 👏

It made the front page of the Daily Planet…I mean Daily Universe…the next day. The accompanying photo featured a bunch of guys including our Senior Resident Pat Simisky. He was not there as part of the raid, but along with other SAs was trying to get guys to go back to the dorms. He was not pleased with the photo. We were never identified, but now you know.  😲

There was a guy on our floor who could vomit at will. Will did not appreciate it. Made for some interesting photo commentaries posted on the Cannon Cafeteria bulletin board. 🤮

I hope this doesn’t make you think less of me. I was younger then.  😎

College, college college... I joined the Church while doing the same kinds of things at a SUNY.

Regarding " The reason was that facial hair had become associated with radical protest and violence on campuses. ✌️" shows that a beard is not anti-social, but can be seen as counter-cultural.

Given the call to preach the gospel in all nations, can anyone point out a nation where a clean-shaven face is considered counter-cultural, even where beards are common?

[Hamba Tuhan]

29 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Given the call to preach the gospel in all nations, can anyone point out a nation where a clean-shaven face is considered counter-cultural, even where beards are common?

'Some religions (such as Islam and Sikhism) have considered a full beard to be essential and mandate it as part of their observance. Other cultures, even while not officially mandating it, view a beard as central to a man's virility, exemplifying such virtues as wisdom, strength, sexual prowess and high social status.'

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

College, college college... I joined the Church while doing the same kinds of things at a SUNY.

Regarding " The reason was that facial hair had become associated with radical protest and violence on campuses. ✌️" shows that a beard is not anti-social, but can be seen as counter-cultural.

Given the call to preach the gospel in all nations, can anyone point out a nation where a clean-shaven face is considered counter-cultural, even where beards are common?

Can’t think of any.

Perhaps there are countries where no beards might be counter-cultural? Would bearded missionaries be more readily accepted in Near East countries (given that other obstacles had been overcome)?

[Bernard Gui]

41 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

'Some religions (such as Islam and Sikhism) have considered a full beard to be essential and mandate it as part of their observance. Other cultures, even while not officially mandating it, view a beard as central to a man's virility, exemplifying such virtues as wisdom, strength, sexual prowess and high social status.'

Well, a couple of those virtues might not be appropriate for LDS missionaries at least while they are serving. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I should start a pool on which GA will be the first to adopt facial hair . It will probably be another 20 years but...

Probably a member from India, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or some other Near Eastern country. You  laugh? I remember when we thought LDS missions in countries behind the Iron Curtain would never happen without war. But who knows what needs to take place for the Church to proselytize in Muslim countries? They don’t seem to appear much in scripture or modern revelation.

Or our own Hamba. I would wager an Outback Steakhouse dinner on him. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

'Some religions (such as Islam and Sikhism) have considered a full beard to be essential and mandate it as part of their observance. Other cultures, even while not officially mandating it, view a beard as central to a man's virility, exemplifying such virtues as wisdom, strength, sexual prowess and high social status.'

Thank you, I checked this out beforehand. This is a community within a nation, which can be said of the same community within the USA. I understand that "cultures" and "sub-cultures" may be represented within the "nations" but I am wonder which nation might find a clean-shaven face objectionable, suspicious or otherwise alienating to the point of being a significant barrier to teaching the gospel. My thought is that a clean-shaven face, today, among any nation, is fairly acceptable or at least tolerable.

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Can’t think of any.

Perhaps there are countries where no beards might be counter-cultural? Would bearded missionaries be more readily accepted in Near East countries (given that other obstacles had been overcome)?

On a country level, I don't see this being much of a barrier. Of course converts within their own communities and following their community's grooming norms might be more well-received than a stranger. This might get Hamba's point, but that goes for something as basic as language where all other cultural grooming norms are at least superficially similar (e.g. US vs just about any nation in Europe).

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

'Some religions (such as Islam and Sikhism) have considered a full beard to be essential and mandate it as part of their observance. Other cultures, even while not officially mandating it, view a beard as central to a man's virility, exemplifying such virtues as wisdom, strength, sexual prowess and high social status.'

Thank you, but this is a religion within a nation, which can be said of the USA. I understand that "cultures" and "sub-cultures" may be represented within the "nations" but I am wonder which nation might find a clean-shaven face objectionable, suspicious or otherwise alienating to the point of being a significant barrier to teaching the gospel. My thought is that a clean-shaven face, today, among any nation, is fairly acceptable or at least tolerable.

20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Can’t think of any.

Perhaps there are countries where no beards might be counter-cultural? Would bearded missionaries be more readily accepted in Near East countries (given that other obstacles had been overcome)?

On a country level, I don't see this being much of a barrier. Of course converts within their own communities and following their community's grooming norms might be more well-received than a stranger.

[MustardSeed]

I find it objectionable on my husband fwiw

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Thank you, I checked this out beforehand. This is a community within a nation, which can be said of the same community within the USA. I understand that "cultures" and "sub-cultures" may be represented within the "nations" but I am wonder which nation might find a clean-shaven face objectionable, suspicious or otherwise alienating to the point of being a significant barrier to teaching the gospel. My thought is that a clean-shaven face, today, among any nation, is fairly acceptable or at least tolerable.

On a country level, I don't see this being much of a barrier. Of course converts within their own communities and following their community's grooming norms might be more well-received than a stranger. This might get Hamba's point, but that goes for something as basic as language where all other cultural grooming norms are at least superficially similar (e.g. US vs just about any nation in Europe).

When I looked on Wikipedia, there were only a handful of countries with beard/grooming laws of some sort. Most of these were limited to specific professions or religious exemptions. And a couple were countries that most of us will never visit or have an active presence in for a long time to come anyways (like North Korea). Even if there was, it would be simple to have cultural training or mission/area specific rules for when you’re called to be a representative in that specific area. that’s not exactly difficult. It makes no sense to me to care about for what is at this point a small sunset of the population freaking out about some facial hair for usually petty reasons (some variation of “I don’t like it” usually) as the determinate for how we should conduct ourselves globally or generally. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited August 30, 2021 by BlueDreams

[bOObOO]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

I was reading the last couple of pages on the modesty thread and there were a few posts that mentioned beards (or more specifically, the lack of them) in LDS leadership positions.

I was curious about the LDS relationship with beards.

I'd say most "rules" in religion can be categorized as doctrine, principle, rule, or cultural norm.

I'd also categorize all of that as either from members of the Church or from our Lord.  So you might want to ask if our Lord has ever said anything about beards or facial hair, specifically. 

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Where does being clean shaven fall?

From members of our Church or from our Lord?  I don't know of any revelation from our Lord where he has ever said something like:  Thou shalt keep thy face clean shaven and free from any facial hair from henceforth until  I say otherwise. 

I'm pretty sure that was a decision that some men decided should be the norm even though most men naturally grow facial hair and it takes the work of men (and sometimes women) to get rid of that hair. 

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

I assume it is a rule for missionaries not to have beards because I've never seen one with facial hair. Why? I've read here that it's against the rules for men at BYU to have beards, too.

Yes, the why of that as far as I know is that some men decided to make that a rule. 

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Is there any doctrine about this? Religious principle? Or are they just rules and/or cultural norms?

Doctrine from men or from our Lord?  Which are you asking about?

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

How much push back would someone get for having a beard if they were in a leadership position?

I have a beard and I am still a leader in my family.  What type of leadership position are you asking about?

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

I googled the LDS apostles and none of them have beards. I assume this is a rule for them?

You mean none of the more recent ones?  Maybe they just do not like facial hair.  I don't know that they have a rule that they should not wear one.

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

I wonder if LDS missionaries would have more success in cultures/religious areas where beards are looked upon as something positive, such as India, the Middle East, and places with high numbers of Eastern Orthodox.

Something to wonder about, I suppose.

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Finally, what do you all think? Should the LDS church/culture be more open to beards? Or would that let the barbarians in the gate?

I think everyone should decide for himself, or herself.  I don't like to trammel others and I don't like to be trammeled myself.

On 8/28/2021 at 9:22 AM, MiserereNobis said:

(full disclosure: I have a full beard and sometimes it has been as big as Pogi's avatar)

I wouldn't want one that long.  I like to trim mine to about an inch long and sometimes let it grow to an inch and a quarter.