Salt Lake Tribune: Why the Church's $100B "May Be Needed"

[smac97]

Here: 

Quote

Latest from Mormon Land: Why the U.S. church may not be growing and why that $100B may be needed
Data scientist expects to see congregation expansion slow or stop in the nation, while continuing to increase overseas.

Church growth isn’t all it’s cracked up to be

We know that church growth tanked in the pandemic year of 2020, falling short of six figures for the first time since at least 2010, as convert baptisms plunged by nearly 50%.

But how’s the overall trend in the U.S. church?

Data scientist Stephen Cranney takes a swing at that question in a recent Times and Seasons blog post. He notes that while the Utah-based faith keeps adding wards and branches — generally viewed as the best way to measure substantive growth — there are signs that such expansion may slow or even cease.

Why? Because of “population momentum,” or, in short, the leftover effects of older members.

“The church in the U.S. may be forming new wards, registering more members on its rolls, and building more temples to meet increasing demand while actually having undergone changes, such as lower birthrates and a net outflow of members, that will lead to the U.S. church shrinking once the older generations die off,” Cranney explains. “...The ‘children of record’ numbers [down 31% last year] have been relatively flat for the past decade [so] … most if not all of the growth that is fueling the expansion of wards, stakes, and temples in the U.S. is essentially being caused by childbearing that happened in the past, and once these effects pass through the system, growth in church units will stagnate, potentially to nothing, and we’ll enter a time period where no new branches, wards, or stakes are being added.”

At least in the U.S.
...
Futurists point to the Global South as where the action will be. On that score, the church appears in solid shape.

“Six countries alone are projected to account for half of the world population growth between now and the end of the 21st century,” Cranney notes, “and with one exception (Pakistan), the church is growing fast in all of them.”

So those reserve funds that the church has amassed by the billions — in part, leaders say, to finance operations in poorer parts of the world — may come in handy.

The church’s world bank

To that last point, Sam Brunson, a tax law professor at Loyola University in Chicago, surmises that the church could tap its hefty cache of cash — reported at $100 billion two years ago — to tend to global operations.

“There would be a lot of power in church leaders saying, ‘We believe that we need to have a cushion for the next hundred years. Based on our projections, we believe ... the church is going to grow primarily among the poor,’” Brunson writes in a By Common Consent blog post. “‘While we have positive revenues today, we have projected that in 20 years we’ll be operating at negative cash flow. We debated tapping into our endowment now to (reduce tithing/feed the hungry/something else) but we believe that these future needs will be more compelling.’”

Read the whole thing.

The early days of the Church drew heavily on converts from Europe, many of whom emigrated to America and to the Intermountain West, where the Church grew for the next century or so.

Conversion/growth rates in Europe subsequently slowed and have now more or less cratered.  During that time the Church in America grew fairly well.  But now growth in America is slowing / stopping / shrinking, while the Church is doing better, in terms of growth and conversion, internationally.

And so it goes.  Europe was previously fertile ground for conversion, now it's not.  America has been fertail ground for conversion, now it's becoming less so.  The future of the Church is international, including, it seems, areas where people are generally poor in the world's measure.

In the early years of the Church, strength and growth came from the Saints physically consolidatingthemselves into the Intermountain West.  Now, however, such gathering isn't feasible.  But strength can be shared over the distance and miles not by the accumulation of people in the Rocky Mountains, but by the accumulated tithes (and revenues from wise management thereof) to help the Church survive and, over time, grow in areas where members are of humble means (as so many were in the early days of the Church).

I'm reminded of a warning and instruction from the history of the Church.  Perhaps the best summary was given to us by Elder Bednar in 2017:

Quote

As individuals and families, we too will be tested, sifted, and prepared, as were the members of Zion’s Camp. The scriptures and the teachings of the Brethren are replete with promises that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; the making, honoring, and remembering of sacred covenants; and obedience to God’s commandments will strengthen us to prepare for, to face, to overcome, and to learn from the trials and tests of mortality.

The leaders of the Lord’s Church clearly have identified some of the collective or generational tests we can expect to encounter in our day and generation. As the President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1977, President Ezra Taft Benson (1899–1994) raised a prophetic voice of warning in a meeting of regional representatives. I now quote extensively from President Benson’s message and invite your focused attention on his timely counsel:

“Every generation has its tests and its chance to stand and prove itself. Would you like to know of one of our toughest tests? Hear the warning words of Brigham Young, ‘The worst fear I have about this people is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and His people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution and be true. But my greatest fear is that they cannot stand wealth.’”

President Benson continues: “Ours then seems to be the toughest test of all, for the evils are more subtle, more clever. It all seems less menacing and it is harder to detect. While every test of righteousness represents a struggle, this particular test seems like no test at all, no struggle and so could be the most deceiving of all tests.

“Do you know what peace and prosperity can do to a people—It can put them to sleep. The Book of Mormon warned us of how Satan, in the last days, would lead us away carefully down to hell. The Lord has on the earth some potential spiritual giants whom He saved for some six thousand years to help bear off the Kingdom triumphantly, and the devil is trying to put them to sleep. The adversary knows that he probably won’t be too successful in getting them to commit many great and malignant sins of commission. So he puts them into a deep sleep, like Gulliver, while he strands them with little sins of omission. And what good is a sleepy, neutralized, lukewarm giant as a leader?

“We have too many potential spiritual giants who should be more vigorously lifting their homes, the kingdom, and the country. We have many who feel they are good men and women, but they need to be good for something—strong patriarchs, courageous missionaries, valiant family history and temple workers, dedicated patriots, devoted quorum members. In short, we must be shaken and awakened from a spiritual snooze.”

Consider that affluence, prosperity, and ease can be tests in our day equal to or greater in intensity than the persecution and physical hardships endured by the Saints who volunteered to march in Zion’s Camp. As the prophet Mormon described in his magnificent summary of the pride cycle contained in Helaman 12:

“And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

“Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity” (Helaman 12:1–2).

I invite you specifically to note the final phrase in the last verse: “and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.”

President Harold B. Lee (1899–1973) likewise taught about the collective test of ease that we face in our day: “We are tested, we are tried, we are going through some of the severest tests today and we don’t realize perhaps the severity of the tests we are going through. In those days there were murderings, there were mobbings, there were drivings. They were driven out into the desert, they were starving and they were unclad, and they were cold. They came here to this favored land. We are the inheritors of what they gave to us. But what are we doing with it? Today we are basking in the lap of luxury, the like of which we’ve never seen before in the history of the world. It would seem that probably this is the most severe test of any test that we’ve ever had in the history of this Church.”

These teachings from modern and ancient prophets about latter-day tests and trials are sobering and solemn. But they should not be discouraging, and we should not be afraid. For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, spiritual warnings lead to increasingly vigilant watching. You and I live in “a day of warning” (D&C 63:58). And because we have been and will be warned, we need to be, as the Apostle Paul admonished, “watching … with all perseverance” (Ephesians 6:18). As we watch and prepare, truly we have no need to fear (see D&C 38:30).

Who’s on the Lord’s side? Now is the time to show that we have minds and hearts that accept and will be responsive to these inspired warnings. Now is the time to show that we are watching and preparing to withstand the latter-day trials of prosperity and pride, of affluence and ease, and of hard hearts and forgetting the Lord our God. Now is the time to show that we will be true at all times in whatsoever things we are entrusted by our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son—and that we will keep the commandments of God and walk uprightly before Him (see Alma 53:20–21).

I think this is right.  I think the Brethren anticipated a "generational test" and warned us about it.  But this is an "internalized" one.  Within the Church.  There are also tests and challenges that arise from both within and without the Church.  As Nephi put it: "And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw."  (1 Nephi 14:12.)

Year ago G.K. Chesterton wrote: "We shall soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four, in which people will persecute the heresy of calling a triangle a three-sided figure, and hang a man for maddening a mob with the news that grass is green."

Yep.  We are being howled down for saying that marriage is between a man and a woman, that gender is more than just a social construct, that God has given us constraints on sexual behavior.  These were previously nearly universally acknowledged, but now we face a maddened mob for believing and advocating these things.

I've always been comfortable with distinguishing the overall growth of the Church from the truthfulness of its message.  The Church is as true today with its many millions of members as it was in 1830 with six.  We of course should continue the pursue the mandates given to us, including the Great Commission.  And while I am saddened to see the Church contract in America, and to see the missed opportunities for blessings attendant to that, it is pretty exciting to see the Church growing overseas.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 26, 2021 by smac97

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

that gender is more than just a social construct,

Gender or sex?

Quote

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.

https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html
 

Quote

Sex” refers to the physical differences between people who are male, female, or intersex. A person typically has their sex assigned at birth based on physiological characteristics, including their genitalia and chromosome composition. This assigned sex is called a person’s “natal sex.”

Gender, on the other hand, involves how a person identifies. Unlike natal sex, gender is not made up of binary forms. Instead, gender is a broad spectrum. A person may identify at any point within this spectrum or outside of it entirely.

People may identify with genders that are different from their natal sex or with none at all. These identities may include transgender, nonbinary, or gender-neutral. There are many other ways in which a person may define their own gender. 

Gender also exists as social constructs — as gender “roles” or “norms.” These are definedTrusted Sourceas the socially constructed roles, behaviors, and attributes that a society considers appropriate for men and women.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363

 

Quote

First though, it is necessary to point out that the terms sex and gender are not synonyms. Sex refers to the biological differences between males and females. Gender refers to the continuum of complex psychosocial self-perceptions, attitudes, and expectations people have about members of both sexes. Even the terms male and female, man and woman are not interchangeable. What it means to be male or female originates from physical characteristics derived from sex chromosomes and genes that lead to certain gonads, internal and external genitalia, and physiological hormones. Being a man or a woman holds broader meaning, with cultural concepts of masculinity and femininity coming into play. This issue of Virtual Mentor will not focus so much on why sex and gender should not be used interchangeably, but instead on how sex and gender together and to varying degrees influence today's practice of medicine [1].

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/sex-gender-and-why-differences-matter/2008-07

[bOObOO]

Money is almost always useful, so the more money someone or some organization has the more money it can use to do something useful.  Money doesn't help with forgiveness of sins, though, because our Lord's mercy can not be bought with money.

So we all need to remember that we still need to be good, and repent when we do something sinful, even when we have a lot of money because our money will not fix everything, no matter how much money we have.

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Gender or sex?

https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html
 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363

 

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/sex-gender-and-why-differences-matter/2008-07

From Wikipedia:

Quote

In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.^[11][12] Some languages, such as German or Finnish, have no separate words for sex and gender. German, for example, uses "Biologisches Geschlecht" for biological sex, and "Soziales Geschlecht" for gender when making this distinction.^[13]

...

11. Udry, J. Richard (November 1994). "The Nature of Gender"(PDF). Demography. 31 (4): 561–573. doi:10.2307/2061790. JSTOR 2061790. PMID 7890091. Archived (PDF) from the original on 2016-12-11.

12. ^ Jump up to:^a b c Haig, David (April 2004). "The Inexorable Rise of Gender and the Decline of Sex: Social Change in Academic Titles, 1945–2001" (PDF). Archives of Sexual Behavior. 33 (2): 87–96. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.359.9143. doi:10.1023/B:ASEB.0000014323.56281.0d. PMID 15146141. S2CID 7005542. Archived from the original (PDF) on 25 May 2011.

13. ^ Helfrich, Hede (2019), "Biologisches und soziales Geschlecht", Kulturvergleichende Psychologie, Berlin, Heidelberg: Springer Berlin Heidelberg, pp. 147–154, doi:10.1007/978-3-662-57665-6_11, ISBN 978-3-662-57664-9, retrieved 2021-08-18

See also here.  And here:

Quote

Social and medical science, and sexual minorities themselves, have been developing definitions for sex, gender, and sexual orientation that are increasingly more precise. This trend has developed in part to better understand and protect people whose sex and/or gender identities do not fit conventional norms, and who often struggle to explain how their appearance, behavior, desires, and/or psychology departs from traditionally recognized categories. In this context, there has been a push by experts and activists to clarify that “sex” is not synonymous with gender, sexual orientation, relationship preferences, etc., although it is obviously related. The law, however, has moved much more slowly to disentangle these concepts, often conflating them or drawing hazy, even inconsistent, distinctions among them. 

I acknowledge that the terms are not exactly synonymous, but I reject the effort to utterly differentiate them.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

“This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution and be true. But my greatest fear is that they cannot stand wealth.’”

I’m thinking I could do it. I’d like to give it a try, at least. 😉 

[Tacenda]

I don't think members need worry, I've heard that the church could have closer to a trillion dollars. Don't ask me how, it came from my son-in-law but we didn't discuss further. 

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

..............................

I've always been comfortable with distinguishing the overall growth of the Church with the truthfulness of its message. 

I think that you intended a "from" there instead of "with."  And that would be a correct observation.

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

The Church is as true today with its many millions of members as it was in 1830 with six.  We of course should continue the pursue the mandates given to us, including the Great Commission.  And while I am saddened to see the Church contract in America, and to see the missed opportunities for blessings attendant to that, it is pretty exciting to see the Church growing overseas.  ........

Aside from a year of pandemic not being amenable to reliable statistical indication, I don't think that we should count our chickens before they're hatched, Spencer.  The LDS Church has not yet contracted in America. If present trends continue, that may well happen, but it will be of little consequence in the near term.  It will take decades to become an actual, statistical drag on Church performance.  Meantime, the Church has a chance to offer excellent education to new members abroad.  Most LDS members already live abroad and speak a language other than English.  We need to get accustomed to some deluded people complaining that "the sky is falling."

Edited August 27, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[Fly Fisherman]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m thinking I could do it. I’d like to give it a try, at least. 😉 

 

Perchik:
Money is the world's curse.

Tevye:
May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover.

--Fiddler on the Roof

😉 

[carbon dioxide]

It is ALWAYS better to have way more money than one needs than not enough.  It should be understood that money and wealth are different.   If a man has a billion dollars in cash, whether the economy or economy goes up or down, if all they have is cash, they maintain a billion dollars in cash.  The only threat is inflation that will devalue that billion dollars.  A man who has a billion dollars in stock may have his wealth go up or down in quite dramatic ways.  He might lose 500 million in a month.  So if the Church has 100 billion in wealth, all it takes is a market crash and that 100 billion could be 60 or 70 billion in a couple months time.  It is good for the church to be way up in the good times so that when the bad times happen, it will still have more than enough when the market goes down and it loses a huge chunk of wealth.

Edited August 27, 2021 by carbon dioxide

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m thinking I could do it. I’d like to give it a try, at least. 😉 

I've seen many adults survive the advent of wealth in their lives, but very few of their children do.

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Most LDS members already live abroad and speak a language other than English.

Interesting spatial deixis. Just FYI, I think it is you minority Americans who 'live abroad'.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said:

It is ALWAYS better to have way more money than one needs than not enough.

Not if one is invested in seeing the Church fold at some point.

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here: 

Read the whole thing.

The early days of the Church drew heavily on converts from Europe, many of whom emigrated to America and to the Intermountain West, where the Church grew for the next century or so.

Conversion/growth rates in Europe subsequently slowed and have now more or less cratered.  During that time the Church in America grew fairly well.  But now growth in America is slowing / stopping / shrinking, while the Church is doing better, in terms of growth and conversion, internationally.

And so it goes.  Europe was previously fertile ground for conversion, now it's not.  America has been fertail ground for conversion, now it's becoming less so.  The future of the Church is international, including, it seems, areas where people are generally poor in the world's measure.

In the early years of the Church, strength and growth came from the Saints physically consolidatingthemselves into the Intermountain West.  Now, however, such gathering isn't feasible.  But strength can be shared over the distance and miles not by the accumulation of people in the Rocky Mountains, but by the accumulated tithes (and revenues from wise management thereof) to help the Church survive and, over time, grow in areas where members are of humble means (as so many were in the early days of the Church).

I'm reminded of a warning and instruction from the history of the Church.  Perhaps the best summary was given to us by Elder Bednar in 2017:

I think this is right.  I think the Brethren anticipated a "generational test" and warned us about it.  But this is an "internalized" one.  Within the Church.  There are also tests and challenges that arise from both within and without the Church.  As Nephi put it: "And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw."  (1 Nephi 14:12.)

Year ago G.K. Chesterton wrote: "We shall soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four, in which people will persecute the heresy of calling a triangle a three-sided figure, and hang a man for maddening a mob with the news that grass is green."

Yep.  We are being howled down for saying that marriage is between a man and a woman, that gender is more than just a social construct, that God has given us constraints on sexual behavior.  These were previously nearly universally acknowledged, but now we face a maddened mob for believing and advocating these things.

I've always been comfortable with distinguishing the overall growth of the Church from the truthfulness of its message.  The Church is as true today with its many millions of members as it was in 1830 with six.  We of course should continue the pursue the mandates given to us, including the Great Commission.  And while I am saddened to see the Church contract in America, and to see the missed opportunities for blessings attendant to that, it is pretty exciting to see the Church growing overseas.  

Thanks,

-Smac

IT is certainly  prudent for the church to accumulate reserves for contingencies. And I agree with biggest threat to the church and its operations is the lack of growth and even shrinking membership in the developed world versus the growth in the underdeveloped and less wealthy part of the world. I have to think the LDS leaders are rather concerned about this.  The question really is how much is enough for a reserve. Between equity. other business investments and land the LDS Church has to by at a half trillion at least in net worth. That is a lot especially given its membership and size.  But yea I get that they have to be very worried as they watch the membership growth stall and and backslide in so much of the world where members have financed the church quite well. I have to think as the membership continues to bleed in more wealthy nations it is impacting tithing collections.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've seen many adults survive the advent of wealth in their lives, but very few of their children do.

I’ve heard that studies bear this out. Rather than give my kids a lucrative bequest, I’d prefer to empower them with the skill to manage money and build wealth on their own. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

23 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I have to think the LDS leaders are rather concerned about this ... But yea I get that they have to be very worried ...

'But if ye are prepared[,] ye shall not fear' (D&C 38:30).

Thanks for your concern, but we're good. 

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

'But if ye are prepared[,] ye shall not fear' (D&C 38:30).

Thanks for your concern, but we're good. 

My concern.....🤣

 

The LDS Church has really very little influence in the over wide world and the direction it takes. Most don't care much about it. And its influence is diminishing.  And if they keep shooting themselves in the foot like Elder Holland just did at BYU their influence with continue to diminish.  So no concern from me but is it interesting to watch it,

[SteveO]

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

My concern.....🤣

 

The LDS Church has really very little influence in the over wide world and the direction it takes. Most don't care much about it. And its influence is diminishing.  And if they keep shooting themselves in the foot like Elder Holland just did at BYU their influence with continue to diminish.  So no concern from me but is it interesting to watch it,

🤣 This is wishful thinking…it’s sphere of influence is disproportionate to its membership numbers.  That’s been evident for a while now.

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, SteveO said:

🤣 This is wishful thinking…it’s sphere of influence is disproportionate to its membership numbers.  That’s been evident for a while now.

No wishful thinking on my part.  Just reality.  But active true believers do have an outsized sense of their and the LDS Church's influence in the world.  It may be outsized based on its membership.  But it is still very small.  Most people  just don't know or care much about the LDS Church

[telnetd]

43 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But it is still very small.  Most people  just don't know or care much about the LDS Church

The LDS Church membership is about the same size as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh
Day Adventists I think.

[Teancum]

24 minutes ago, telnetd said:

The LDS Church membership is about the same size as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh
Day Adventists I think.

Yes. Two other odd sects that  most people don't worry to much about.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

🤣 This is wishful thinking…it’s sphere of influence is disproportionate to its membership numbers.  That’s been evident for a while now.

I'm not sure the institutional Church is intended to have, as Teancum apparently supposes, a huge and obvious "influence in the over wide world and the direction it takes."  I think it is mostly the individual members who are supposed to influence the world, and even then they are to be the "salt" or "leaven."  Consider 1 Nephi 14:12:

Quote

And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

"Their dominions upon the face of the earth were small."  Yep.  I don't think the Church was ever intended to be the Holy Roman Empire, or the Catholic Church, or some other worldwide "religious" superpower.  So Teancum's oblique sneering about the supposed inconsequentiality of the Church doesn't really work.  

To the extent the institutional Church is to have an influence, I don't think that influence is supposed to be political, or military, or financial, or medical, or technological, or in music/entertainment, or in news/media, and so on.  Rather, its mandates are to perfect the Saints, proclaim the Gospel, redeem the dead, and care for poor and needy.  The Church has many thousands of buildings, hundreds of temples, tens of thousands of missionaries, and extensive humanitarian and educational endeavors.

If there were a facet of society where the Church has an obvious and substantial and overside "sphere of influence" (aside from the quality of its members and their cumulative "leavening" influence on their communities/societies), I would point to . . . family history work.  I think the Church is a recognized leader in that field, which is notable given Malachi's prophecy about Elijah:

Quote

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

There are still more things that will happen in the future, I believe.  

“Before the great day of the Lord shall come, … the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose” (D&C 49:24).  I think this is starting to happen.  

Also: "Near the time of the coming of Jesus Christ, the faithful Saints will build a righteous city, a city of God, called the New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ Himself will rule there. (See 3 Nephi 21:23–25; Moses 7:62–64; Articles of Faith 1:10.)"

The literal gathering of the Ten Tribes.  

A temple in Jerusalem, and one in New Jerusalem.

The gathering at Adam-ondi-Ahman.

Two witnesses in Jerusalem.  

I think the institutional Church will be involved in most or all of these.  

I'm not really that concerned about how much "the World" takes notice of these things.  That's not the predominating metric by which I gauge the role of the Church.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 27, 2021 by smac97

[carbon dioxide]

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

My concern.....🤣

 

The LDS Church has really very little influence in the over wide world and the direction it takes. Most don't care much about it. And its influence is diminishing.  And if they keep shooting themselves in the foot like Elder Holland just did at BYU their influence with continue to diminish.  So no concern from me but is it interesting to watch it,

The influence currently is small.  It may get smaller as the Church takes positions that are not popular.  That is 100% OK.  Based on the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets, the last days are progressing as has been predicted.  Eventually the Church becomes the most important thing in the world but a lot of ground has to be traveled from now until then.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The influence currently is small.  It may get smaller as the Church takes positions that are not popular.  That is 100% OK.  Based on the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets, the last days are progressing as has been predicted.  Eventually the Church becomes the most important thing in the world but a lot of ground has to be traveled from now until then.

100. 500 or 1000  years from now the LDS Church wont be the most important thing in the world. My guess is it and other religious influence will diminish.

.  But I know this is what believers believe.  And it used to be that he church was the stone cut out of the mountain without hands that was going to fill the entire earth. And that meant it was true and fulfilling prophecy;  Now the Church is true because its numbers are small.... It is a win win either way.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Teancum