'What would dead church leaders think? Short-sighted reasoning

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I highly doubt OD! was revelation. It was political. 

"The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice."

"I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng

 

President Woodruff believed that it was revelation.  Is there evidence otherwise?

 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think this may be another example of what you are talking about:

 

When I was a BYU freshman in 1964, my roommate and I both grew beards. There were very few beards at BYU then, but because beards were rapidly coming to be associated with protest and political activism, when we came back to school in 1965 they were verboten. My roommate was allowed to keep his because it covered severe acne scarring, but mine had to go.

No problem. Beards tend to grow back, but some disgruntled students protested the ban by pointing out all the dead prophets (including the statues of Brigham Young and all the artistic depictions Jesus) who had beards. They wouldn’t be allowed to attend BYU.

Some students thought this was an unassailable argument, but they had no joy because none of the General Authorities at the time had beards, including President McKay. So, who(m) ((?Scott)) do you follow, the dead prophets or the living prophets?

In this case and the above quote from Peggy Stack people cited the dead prophets to shame or discredit living prophets. I think this is what Scott is getting at.

Please don’t sidetrack further by harping on BYU’s beard ban. 

Interestingly, for most of his life BY was beardless. I suppose if it really was that important, one could have transferred to U of U.

Should have used that in the OP. Would have led to a much more fun derail.

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The political machinations of the Nephites and Lamanites were inextricably tied to religious beliefs. The foundation of their woes was the secret oaths of old that gain could be gotten by murder. One of the dead prophets even gave this warning to us:

 

Some of them were tied to secret combinations. I do think Mormon and Moroni get a little melodramatic about the oaths. They are basic common sense when you are trying to commit crimes. It is a way to attempt to create a form of honor amongst thieves. I get that they are satanic but the oaths are not sworn by him. The oaths we have wording for are sworn by God. In modern day the more extreme oaths are sworn on your family’s lives or something like that because they and you get offed if you try to back out. The secret combinations are also as obvious as they always have been. Just a pretense of not being a crook.

[Teancum]

34 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

"The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice."

"I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng

 

President Woodruff believed that it was revelation.  Is there evidence otherwise?

 

Of course he saw what would happen. As to the other comments, I guess I am skeptical.  Anyone can claim anything at all. It is not my job to provide the evidence. It is his.  Having read the history of how this came about and how it was somewhat ignored or worked around for a number of years I am doubtful.

[TheTanakas]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:53 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

To accept the restored gospel is to believe in life after death and, ergo, that deceased Church leaders go on living in the spirit world

Does D&C 138:57 mean Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are still in the spirit world preaching
the gospel to the wicked?

Pete

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Some of them were tied to secret combinations. I do think Mormon and Moroni get a little melodramatic about the oaths. They are basic common sense when you are trying to commit crimes. It is a way to attempt to create a form of honor amongst thieves. I get that they are satanic but the oaths are not sworn by him. The oaths we have wording for are sworn by God. In modern day the more extreme oaths are sworn on your family’s lives or something like that because they and you get offed if you try to back out. The secret combinations are also as obvious as they always have been. Just a pretense of not being a crook.

Melodramatic when you see hundreds of thousands of your people slaughtered in hideous ways as a result? I think I’ll cut them some slack.

I’m reminded of this:

Quote

Helaman 6:25 Now behold, it is these secret oaths and covenants which Alma commanded his son should not go forth unto the world, lest they should be a means of bringing down the people unto destruction.
26 Now behold, those secret oaths and covenants did not come forth unto Gadianton from the records which were delivered unto Helaman; but behold, they were put into the heart of Gadianton by that same being who did entice our first parents to partake of the forbidden fruit—
27 Yea, that same being who did plot with Cain, that if he would murder his brother Abel it should not be known unto the world. And he did plot with Cain and his followers from that time forth.
28 And also it is that same being who put it into the hearts of the people to build a tower sufficiently high that they might get to heaven. And it was that same being who led on the people who came from that tower into this land; who spread the works of darkness and abominations over all the face of the land, until he dragged the people down to an entire destruction, and to an everlasting hell.
29 Yea, it is that same being who put it into the heart of Gadianton to still carry on the work of darkness, and of secret murder; and he has brought it forth from the beginning of man even down to this time.
30 And behold, it is he who is the author of all sin. And behold, he doth carry on his works of darkness and secret murder, and doth hand down their plots, and their oaths, and their covenants, and their plans of awful wickedness, from generation to generation according as he can get hold upon the hearts of the children of men.

But, of course, this could not happen today.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Does D&C 138:57 mean Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are still in the spirit world preaching
the gospel to the wicked?

Pete

 

I suppose so if that is their current assignment, but it does say “the faithful elders of this dispensation.” They may be included in those numbers. In any case, they are mingling with Gods to plan for their brethren [and sisteren].

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Should have used that in the OP. Would have led to a much more fun derail.

I didn’t write the OP. Why take delight from derailing threads?

Edited July 20, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

"The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice."

"I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng

 

President Woodruff believed that it was revelation.  Is there evidence otherwise?

 

Given that OD1 was basically just a front and church leaders continued to practice plural marriage in secret for over a decade, it's pretty difficult to take anything they say about it at face value. ymmv.

[ksfisher]

42 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Given that OD1 was basically just a front and church leaders continued to practice plural marriage in secret for over a decade, it's pretty difficult to take anything they say about it at face value. ymmv.

I would agree that it was implemented imperfectly, but I don't know that calling it "just a front" does justice to what was going on either.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I didn’t write the OP. Why take delight from derailing threads?

The same reason you should take delight in anything. Delight is good.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Melodramatic when you see hundreds of thousands of your people slaughtered in hideous ways as a result? I think I’ll cut them some slack.

I’m reminded of this:

But, of course, this could not happen today.

It had been happening every day since Cain killed Abel. The “secret works of darkness” are always going on but they are terrible at keeping it secret and in the dark. The Book of Mormon makes that clear. We don’t need grandiose and unlikely conspiracy theories to find this stuff. It exists on every level from a small HOA quietly skimming money for themselves to police that refuse to turn on wrongdoers in their ranks to executives keeping mum about obvious illegalities that they hope no one will ever see up to international arms deals with a code of silence about what those weapons will end up doing. They are everywhere a quiet deal is made so that the chosen few involved will profit at the expense of others whether that is dodging a law, scamming people, or murdering them to free up property. It is just that people don’t want to do anything about it. The warnings about secret combinations are not about figuring them out. The warning is not to join in with them.

I am saying it is melodramatic to insist Satan always has to reveal the plans. They are obvious and are often just a way of life.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I would agree that it was implemented imperfectly, but I don't know that calling it "just a front" does justice to what was going on either.

So when Woodruff states to the world:

”We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.”

but then continues to allow the Saints to enter into the principal that looks like lying to me. You can say that he was lying to serve a greater purpose, but I think “a front” was a generous way to put it. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Delight is good.

Man is that he might have joy.

[Calm]

 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am saying it is melodramatic to insist Satan always has to reveal the plans. They are obvious and are often just a way of life.

There is a ritual feel to the way they describe the groups, imo. Maybe borrowed from actual dramas. 

[Navidad]

On 7/18/2021 at 6:59 PM, JLHPROF said:

There's a big difference between perfect and complete. 

Its interesting you say that. The Greek word used for perfect in the New Testament (teleioi and its derivatives) in its best English translation means "complete." When we are made perfect in the NT sense it means in Christ we are made complete, not sinless, but complete. At least in that usage there is not difference between perfect and complete.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The same reason you should take delight in anything. Delight is good.

It had been happening every day since Cain killed Abel. The “secret works of darkness” are always going on but they are terrible at keeping it secret and in the dark. The Book of Mormon makes that clear. We don’t need grandiose and unlikely conspiracy theories to find this stuff. It exists on every level from a small HOA quietly skimming money for themselves to police that refuse to turn on wrongdoers in their ranks to executives keeping mum about obvious illegalities that they hope no one will ever see up to international arms deals with a code of silence about what those weapons will end up doing. They are everywhere a quiet deal is made so that the chosen few involved will profit at the expense of others whether that is dodging a law, scamming people, or murdering them to free up property. It is just that people don’t want to do anything about it. The warnings about secret combinations are not about figuring them out. The warning is not to join in with them.

I am saying it is melodramatic to insist Satan always has to reveal the plans. They are obvious and are often just a way of life.

Great be the glory of those who do right, who overcome evil, in good take delight.

.Apparently we are talking about two different things.

This is what I am referring to.

Quote

Moses 5:29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
30 And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret.
31 And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan, and he gloried in his wickedness.
32 And Cain went into the field, and Cain talked with Abel, his brother. And it came to pass that while they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel, his brother, and slew him.
33 And Cain gloried in that which he had done, saying: I am free; surely the flocks of my brother falleth into my hands.

This is what the Nephites dealt with to their final destruction, not with some schoolyard bully who beat you up to take your lunch.

Quote

Ether 8: I, Moroni, write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.
21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.
22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.
23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

I got one of these today as well after drafting up a long comment.  Very frustrating! 

The apparent problem has to do with, in my particular case, non-ASCII characters in the text. This would occur because of copy/pasting from sources that have embedded non-printing or "odd" characters that are not recognized by the board software. In one thread dealing with a new German version of the Bible that the Church is working on, I copy/pasted some German language text from the Luther Bible, and got blasted by the 403. This was because of a particular character in German. The character looks like this: ß

The source I copied it from (the Church website, actually), had three occurrences of the character. I got the 403 until I replaced them with their ASCII equivalent, which is "ss". It's also possible there were non-printing characters in there that my replacement eliminated. I don't know why it doesn't 403 on me this time, except that I got the character from Wikipedia, and it may be in a different form. (SMS)

You can also get the 403 if you type words that the system interprets as spam, such as drug names.

 

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, Teancum said:

I got one of these today as well after drafting up a long comment.  Very frustrating! 

One rule that I have devised but don't always follow is that if I have a long post to make, I copy the text into my clipboard before I hit Submit. Then, if the board software kicks me to the curb, at least I still have my text and can paste it to Notepad (or Notepad++, which is much better) and search through it to figure out what the problem was. 

[Stargazer]

On 7/19/2021 at 4:48 PM, Calm said:

lol, that is what I get for not double checking given been decades since my last civics class…and last night was kind of blurry. Should have known better.  Mixed up interpretation of “persons” where the Constitution did not define what a person was for legal purposes (right?, don’t quite trust myself now  ) and then applied it too broadly (not just requirements for representatives, but who could vote for them).

The Constitution doesn't actually define anything at all, so far as I remember. It assumes the conventional meaning of words -- although with changes in meaning over time this means that things may gradually become understood differently. As for "person", there is only one place in the Constitution where the gender of persons is mentioned, and that's in the 14th Amendment. It there implies that males are the ones who vote, and sets the minimum age at 21. Of course, this was changed in later amendments. But the implication was in only connection with the election of electors for the presidential election, and so might not have universal application.

[Calm]

I was referring to the age and citizenship requirements for holding office that are in the original document….which uses “person” as the term for individual. In context of that time and place the source was most likelyBritish common law iirc, legally “person” meant something different than it does today…and I was thinking that interpretation of person was included in the text where it wasn’t. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Great be the glory of those who do right, who overcome evil, in good take delight.

.Apparently we are talking about two different things.

This is what I am referring to.

This is what the Nephites dealt with to their final destruction, not with some schoolyard bully who beat you up to take your lunch.

 

A schoolyard bully is not in a secret combination unless he has some code of silence with other bullies or other kids.

It is the same concept and mechanism. It is just the scale that changes. The Nephites (and Lamanites) were brought down because they let this kind of mechanism become embedded in every level of their society. While murder is the most efficient way to turn human life into property (with the possibly exception of slavery) it is not the most common method. It is often easier and safer to exploit, use, trick, con, etc. Then you and your partners agree to make sure no one gets caught. Inevitably there are murder plots of course. There are even genocide plots. What better way to get more “stuff” than to kill off a whole people and take it all?

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

A schoolyard bully is not in a secret combination unless he has some code of silence with other bullies or other kids.

It is the same concept and mechanism. It is just the scale that changes. The Nephites (and Lamanites) were brought down because they let this kind of mechanism become embedded in every level of their society. While murder is the most efficient way to turn human life into property (with the possibly exception of slavery) it is not the most common method. It is often easier and safer to exploit, use, trick, con, etc. Then you and your partners agree to make sure no one gets caught. Inevitably there are murder plots of course. There are even genocide plots. What better way to get more “stuff” than to kill off a whole people and take it all?

Here's a good article by Brandt Gardner re the Gadianton Robbers

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2002/the-gadianton-robbers-in-mormons-theological-history-their-structural-role-and-plausible-identification

I'd pull some quotes out, but I'm afraid I'd be losing some of the context in doing so.  The whole article really needs to be read to get a complete understanding of what Gardner is proposing.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A schoolyard bully is not in a secret combination unless he has some code of silence with other bullies or other kids.

It is the same concept and mechanism. It is just the scale that changes. The Nephites (and Lamanites) were brought down because they let this kind of mechanism become embedded in every level of their society. While murder is the most efficient way to turn human life into property (with the possibly exception of slavery) it is not the most common method. It is often easier and safer to exploit, use, trick, con, etc. Then you and your partners agree to make sure no one gets caught. Inevitably there are murder plots of course. There are even genocide plots. What better way to get more “stuff” than to kill off a whole people and take it all?

Schoolyard bullies always have their minions to back them up.

The Satan-inspired secret oath/societies/conspiracies/combinations are a repeated theme in the BoM. Mormon did that for a purpose. I think he did this as a warning for us today. IMO the drug cartels are examples of modern Gadiantons. We should take heed.

You seem loathe to acknowledge the Satanic connection with these secret combinations. Can they not exist today?  Maybe I’m misunderstanding.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

53 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Here's a good article by Brandt Gardner re the Gadianton Robbers

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2002/the-gadianton-robbers-in-mormons-theological-history-their-structural-role-and-plausible-identification

I'd pull some quotes out, but I'm afraid I'd be losing some of the context in doing so.  The whole article really needs to be read to get a complete understanding of what Gardner is proposing.

Excellent read as usual from BroG.

Bro. Gardner does a great job of contextualizing the Gadiantons and finding similarities in Mesoamerican history, but he does not address the relevance for us today -why did Mormon take such pains to document them? 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[bOObOO]

On 7/18/2021 at 11:53 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

I lose patience with the occasional remark about what Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or whoever would think about X if he were alive today. 
 

Why? Because the underlying implication is nearly always that they would be plucked out of the time in which they lived and plunked down in present day without any orientation and would therefore disapprove of the way things are done in the Church today. That is faulty reasoning. And a form of presentism. 
 

To accept the restored gospel is to believe in life after death and, ergo, that deceased Church leaders go on living in the spirit world. Furthermore, it is a virtual certainty that they remain dialed into, and even participate in some way in, the ongoing progress of the kingdom of God in mortality. So if changes in the Church have come about over time via divine revelation (and they have) the compelling conclusion is that these Church leaders have seen and approve of said changes. 
 

So, for example, to say that Brigham Young would disapprove of controlled U.S. borders today because he needed free-flowing immigration to feed the gathering to Zion in the 19th century ignores the fact that since the turn of the century (20th, not 21st), the Church has taught and encouraged that converts should remain and build Zion wherever they live instead of physically gathering to one central location. 

Rather than lose patience I try to sympathize with people who have false beliefs while thinking prophets would agree with them.  They believe God agrees with them too while thinking their beliefs are true when in truth they are actually wrong.

I sympathize because I know what it feels like to believe in something that I later discover I should not have believed is true.