Bsa suffering huge membership declines

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, It doesn’t suggest that at all. This is why Scouting is a foundational American institution:

By foundational I mean pioneering, important, fundamental, critical, basic, or essential. Scouting was the first national, the largest, the most successful, the most important, and the most enduring institution for American boys.

Scouting was the foundational institution for American boys, but American outdoorsmen were establishing adventure-based training programs for boys before 1910.

For example, E.T. Seton founded The Woodcraft Indians program (1901-02). He published How Boys Can Form a Band of Indians in 1903, and his bookThe Birch Bark Roll of the Woodcraft Indians (1905-06) influenced Lord Baden-Powell. In 1906 these two men met to discuss their concepts of outdoor training for boys. 

Daniel Beard founded The Sons of Daniel Boone in 1905. His handbook Boy Pioneers: Sons of Daniel Boone was published in 1909. Both Seton and Beard were principal founders of BSA.

BSA was also foundational  for later youth organizations such as Cub Scouts, Exploring, Brownies, Girl Scouts, Camp Fire, YMCA Indian Guides, and other religious groups for boys, including being the official activity program for LDS boys for over 100 years. Teddy Roosevelt served as the first Chief Scout in 1910 and all US Presidents since WH Taft in 1910 have served as Honorary Presidents.

 

I just do not see it as that foundational. Even at its peak of membership in the 1970s only about a third of boys in the US in that age group were members and that was the peak. I agree it was a major influence particularly in the demographics that were heavily involved which includes members of the Church who had a higher participation rate per capita than pretty much any other group.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I just do not see it as that foundational. Even at its peak of membership in the 1970s only about a third of boys in the US in that age group were members and that was the peak. I agree it was a major influence particularly in the demographics that were heavily involved which includes members of the Church who had a higher participation rate per capita than pretty much any other group.

Thank you. One third is a significant number of participants. I can’t think of another organization that had that much influence on American boys.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

Does anyone lamenting the loss of the foundational impact that the BSA had on American youth want to discuss its pedophile problem?  Because I don't see how we can honestly ignore that part of its legacy.

Not all of the BSA's influence as been good.  

 

 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Because I don't see how we can honestly ignore that part of its legacy.

I was wondering about the lack of mention. Not only pedophilia, but abuse between the youth (not talking consensual, but assaults).  Heard stories from several men about being assaulted by other scouts. 

[AtlanticMike]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Does anyone lamenting the loss of the foundational impact that the BSA had on American youth want to discuss its pedophile problem?  Because I don't see how we can honestly ignore that part of its legacy.

Not all of the BSA's influence as been good.  

 

 

Are you suggesting that it might of been a good idea for the church to of parted ways with the BSA because of sexual abuse? If so, then that kinda opens up the discussion about what we do with the sexual abuse inside other organizations like religions, including ours.

[Bernard Gui]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Does anyone lamenting the loss of the foundational impact that the BSA had on American youth want to discuss its pedophile problem?  Because I don't see how we can honestly ignore that part of its legacy.

Not all of the BSA's influence as been good.  

 

 

That would be a great topic for another thread.

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Are you suggesting that it might of been a good idea for the church to of parted ways with the BSA because of sexual abuse? If so, then that kinda opens up the discussion about what we do with the sexual abuse inside other organizations like religions, including ours.

I'm not suggesting that.

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That would be a great topic for another thread.

It seems like it's relevant to this one, given the topic of your posts about everything America stands to lose with the loss of the BSA.  Can we talk about the foundational impact the BSA had on Americans--which you seemed to want to talk about--and not include the sexual abuse?

[JAHS]

Boy Scout oath:
"To do my duty, to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."

Is it the opinion of the Church leaders that the BSA has violated this oath, especially the part about duty to God and morally straight?

I guess it depends on what your definitions of these two terms are.

[CA Steve]

5 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Is it the opinion of the Church leaders that the BSA has violated this oath, especially the part about duty to God and morally straight?

I guess it depends on what your definitions of these two terms are.

I would guess that "morally straight" is where the BSA and the church differ in definitions.

😉

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I would guess that "morally straight" is where the BSA and the church differ in definitions.

😉

Probably be altered due to changing meetings. Similar to how they took out the part about being “square”.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

It seems like it's relevant to this one, given the topic of your posts about everything America stands to lose with the loss of the BSA.  Can we talk about the foundational impact the BSA had on Americans--which you seemed to want to talk about--and not include the sexual abuse?

There are plenty of groups that have predators join up including Hollywood, pop culture, sports, politics, academia, the Olympics, etc. It seems that would better be addressed in another thread. 

I’m trying to be upeat about something that has had significant positive impact on my life and my extended family from age 8 to now. If you want to tear it down feel free, but I won’t do it in this thread.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[AtlanticMike]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are plenty of groups that have predators join up including Hollywood, pop culture, sports, politics, academia, the Olympics, etc. It seems that would better be addressed in another thread. 

I’m trying to be upeat about something that has had significant positive impact on my life and my extended family from age 8 to now. If you want to tear it down feel free, but I won’t do it in this thread.

👍    Scouts was a positive influence in my life also. Did you get your eagle?

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are plenty of groups that have predators join up including Hollywood, pop culture, sports, politics, academia, the Olympics, etc. It seems that would better be addressed in another thread. 

I’m trying to be upeat about something that has had significant positive impact on my life and my extended family from age 8 to now. If you want to tear it down feel free, but I won’t do it in this thread.

The problem isn’t that predators attempt to insinuate themselves into an organization. That is business as usual. It is when the institution as a whole allows it to continue that problems crop up. The BSA kept a bunch of records about predators but did almost nothing with them which further incriminated them.

Last I heard BSA was trying to limit liability to the National organization to protect the local councils but the number of abuse victims who stepped forward was much higher than anticipated and it dwarfed their ability to pay. Their early settlement offer of $220 million was way too low for the roughly 84,000 plaintiffs.

There is good news though. Roughly 90% of the claims came from incidents 30 years or more in the past. It suggests that their steps to mitigate the problem are working to some extent so they may be able to survive if they can make it out of their current situation.

[Judd]

I don’t believe I’ve had to attend a church meeting hi-jacked into a friends of scouting drive for at least 10 years. Tender mercies of the Lord. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

👍    Scouts was a positive influence in my life also. Did you get your eagle?

Yes. Did you? Did you work in Scouts as an adult?

[Bernard Gui]

Is there a national organization waiting in the wings to replace BSA as an influencer and shaper of boys and young men? 

[Bernard Gui]

32 minutes ago, Judd said:

I don’t believe I’ve had to attend a church meeting hi-jacked into a friends of scouting drive for at least 10 years. Tender mercies of the Lord. 

I never thought it was onerous to be a Friend of Scouts even when my sons became too old. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

Does anyone lamenting the loss of the foundational impact that the BSA had on American youth want to discuss its pedophile problem?  Because I don't see how we can honestly ignore that part of its legacy.

Not all of the BSA's influence as been good.  

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That would be a great topic for another thread.

 

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

It seems like it's relevant to this one, given the topic of your posts about everything America stands to lose with the loss of the BSA.  Can we talk about the foundational impact the BSA had on Americans--which you seemed to want to talk about--and not include the sexual abuse?

 

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are plenty of groups that have predators join up including Hollywood, pop culture, sports, politics, academia, the Olympics, etc. It seems that would better be addressed in another thread. 

I’m trying to be upeat about something that has had significant positive impact on my life and my extended family from age 8 to now. If you want to tear it down feel free, but I won’t do it in this thread.

I didn’t start this thread as an apologist for Scouting. I’m quite glad the Church disaffiliated itself from BSA, especially in light of developments in recent years. 
 

But I also didn’t start it with the intent to vilify Scouting by dredging up old but unsavory news about bad actors who joined the organization in times past. I quite agree with Bernard that numerous young lives have been positively influenced by it. I worry that such vilification might open the way to make the Church of Jesus Christ a similar target, where rogues and bad actors among the membership have at times engaged in wrongdoing without the knowledge and certainly without the approval of the leadership. 
 

And to those who are poking at Bernard for saying that Scouting has been foundational in the culture of our nation, I would ask if there has truly ever been a time in the past 100 or so years when the IDEALS  of the nation have been at odds with the elements expressed in the Scout law: 

“A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.” 
 

By the way, I didn’t have to look that up. I committed it to memory many years ago, when I was very young. You see, I was a Scout. Maybe not a stellar one, but a Scout nonetheless. 
 

Finally, in reference to one of the above posts, what is inherently wrong with fostering loyalty to one’s employer, providing the employer is deserving of such loyalty? 

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I never thought it was onerous to be a Friend of Scouts even when my sons became too old. 

I didn’t like the pushiness, the guilt-tripping or the quasi-religious fervor. And I felt the executive leadership was top-heavy in terms of remuneration and occupational perquisites. It probably still is. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I didn’t like the pushiness, the guilt-tripping or the quasi-religious fervor. And I felt the executive leadership was top-heavy in terms of remuneration and occupational perquisites. It probably still is. 

This. It was set up almost as a demand and expectation. More than once I wished they would just push Tithing up to 10.01% and just dumped the extra into the Friends of Scouting fund. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by The Nehor

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I didn’t like the pushiness, the guilt-tripping or the quasi-religious fervor. And I felt the executive leadership was top-heavy in terms of remuneration and occupational perquisites. It probably still is. 

I understand. We never laid the guilt trip on our ward members. Rather we asked them to contribute whatever they wanted. I contributed what I thought was fair. If we didn’t make the goals set for us, oh well. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I was wondering about the lack of mention. Not only pedophilia, but abuse between the youth (not talking consensual, but assaults).  Heard stories from several men about being assaulted by other scouts. 

Any organization that has lots of interaction between men and men, boys and boys, and men and boys will have  occasional problems with abuse and violence. That doesn’t excuse it, but it is a fact of life.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Any organization that has lots of interaction between men and men, boys and boys, and men and boys will have  occasional problems with abuse and violence. That doesn’t excuse it, but it is a fact of life.

No doubt.  I have just heard a number of stories about scouting from people I know personally while I haven’t been told about assaults at school or church outside of scouting or other clubs for boys, so it reads to me as a higher incidence rate…but that is anecdotal which means pretty useless in determining actual rates.
 

I think it is the accusations and evidence of ignoring the problem in the past that makes the BSA really stand out, but maybe that was pretty typical as well and they got caught because they documented.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

No doubt.  I have just heard a number of stories about scouting while I haven’t been told about assaults at school or church outside of scouting or other clubs, so it reads to me as a higher incidence rate…but that is anecdotal which means pretty useless in determining actual rates.
 

I think it is the accusations and evidence of ignoring the problem in the past that makes the BSA really stand out, but maybe that was pretty typical as well and they got caught because they documented.

It is more than a perception. There were almost 90,000 plaintiffs in the BSA case so that doesn’t include any previous cases.

There are cases against the church but they don’t come near to that on either a gross or per capita level. In addition many of the cases against the church are not about anyone in the church hierarchy performing the actual abuse. Often it is the more common parents or relatives abuse the child and the case is over the church not doing enough to report or end it. This does not appear to be the case with the BSA.

I suspect the BSA’s number of accusations also surpass those of the Catholic’s within the same time period.