Ephraim temple announcement revelation or caving to public pressure

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

You are guilty of misrepresenting my remarks.  At no time have I asserted lying by the brethren.  I certainly would not choose that particular word.  But at least for me, they are attempting, to have their cake and eat it too.  They seem to have a blind spot for being able to admit that public outcries impact their decisions.  Its as if they do not what anyone to believe that they are human and as humans oft times make errors in their decisions.  But they can't bring themselves to admitting that they make these mistakes and so use God as a crutch to hide their mistakes  and blame them on God.  It makes God look foolish.

You do not have to use the word "lie" to make the point, but you are mostly correct, and God and revelation are the fall guys.  The problem essentially is that neither your hands, nor those of the Brethren are clean, and you are expecting more of them than is reasonable.  It would be far more sanguine and honest of you to simply accept that "they are human and as humans oft times make errors."  You are willing to use those words, but not quite ready to accept that as a normative, reasonable reality.

When that sort of thing comes from the Vatican, or from the old time Tanners, most of us simply accept that as normal.  Humans are flawed, Fair Dinkum.  Accept that and get on with it.  You might take a lesson from the late Mike Quinn:  He was very incisive, professional, and balanced in his appraisals of the Brethren.  No animus at all.  No unreasonable expectations.

[CA Steve]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

God speaking to me personally is a miracle.  It happens a lot.

You audibly hear God's voice a lot or are you using "speaking" in a different sense? Because I would agree hearing God's actual voice could be considered a miracle but I suspect that is not what you are saying.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Then why call them miracles if they happen all the time?

Exactly:  If everything is a miracle, then nothing is a miracle.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I tend to feel that revelation and miracles should be seen as common.  
 

Revelation is “an expression of the mind of God for the instruction of the church.”  (William E. Vine, et al. Complete Expositiry Dictionary if Ild and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: Nelson, 1986), 2:532.).   I think that well includes administrative instruction/direction.  Revelation is God unveiling his mind to his people,  I think that is a perfectly appropriate use in this context.
 

When we limit revelation to the grandiose visions etc., I think we take away from just how involved God is in revealing his mind and will to us in the details of our lives.   I feel that miracles and revelations should be common place in our life.  By so doing we acknowledge just how alive and active God is in directing us, his children.  There is definitely overlap in the words inspiration and revelation.  In fact, I would be hard pressed to verbalize any clear distinction.  

This line of thinking runs the risk of associating every decision we make as part of the hive-mind or central processing unit, rather than part of independent, free agency.  How then would we differ from an automaton who is tied directly or by wi-fi to a massive server system?  Is resistance futile, and are we supposed to be part of the Borg?  Is this how we should conceive of the influence of the Holy Spirit?

5 hours ago, pogi said:

“His revelations range from the sublime to the mundane.” (T. Givens)

I doubt that Terryl Givens was suggesting that revelation is common.  His is instead saying that a revelation may be sublime or mundane in nature.  Not that it occurs constantly.

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

You audibly hear God's voice a lot or are you using "speaking" in a different sense? Because I would agree hearing God's actual voice could be considered a miracle but I suspect that is not what you are saying.

It’s almost never audible, but it is no less undeniable.  I have revelation through visions, dreams, and almost palpable spiritual enlightenment in very personal ways.  Prayer is unlike anything else I have experienced, which makes it miraculous to me - reliably so. Life defining experiences.   I have prayer journals where I can read back and see personal revelations that I have forgotten about, later fulfilled, in some cases against all odds.   All we need to do is take the time to listen.  My experiences are very common in those who practice meditative prayer.

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This line of thinking runs the risk of associating every decision we make as part of the hive-mind or central processing unit, rather than part of independent, free agency.  How then would we differ from an automaton who is tied directly or by wi-fi to a massive server system?  Is resistance futile, and are we supposed to be part of the Borg?  Is this how we should conceive of the influence of the Holy Spirit?

I doubt that Terryl Givens was suggesting that revelation is common.  His is instead saying that a revelation may be sublime or mundane in nature.  Not that it occurs constantly.

Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened.   I don’t see any limitation to that promise.   The Lord can direct us for good without relieving us of agency.   He can teach us things about ourselves to bring about real change and we’ll-being/healing in our lives.  When I am practicing, I feel like I am being directed to a better version of myself.  I don’t feel like I am assimilating to a borg in the sense that I don’t have agency and independence, but I do feel a very real sense of oneness with my Father - so in that sense, there is a a surrender and assimilation of sorts.

Edited May 7, 2021 by pogi

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

All we need to do is take the time to listen.

For many people. Not all. Speaking as someone who lost the ability to hear for a few years due to medication. 
 

But I found other ways to see the Spirit work in my life during that time. I wouldn’t expect someone not familiar with the Spirit already to be able to identify such though. 
 

I am also open to the idea it is all wishful thinking in my part, even the really improbable moments (such as the RS president knocking at our door immediately after a prayer my roommate and I had about what to do with our other roommates who were trying to kill each other off, we had after the prayer decided to contact the RS Pres as a mediator, she had never visited us before or after at our apartment that year) because given the massive number of events in my life, some will be improbable.

Quote

Idon’t feel like I am assimilating to a borg in the sense that I don’t have agency and independence

I agree. I feel a greater sense of freedom and limits being unlocked when I open myself up more fully to the Spirit. The possibilities grow, they don’t shrink when I am living in such a way that a better me is developing. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Calm

[pogi]

Just now, Calm said:

For many people. Not all. Speaking as someone who lost the ability to hear for a few years due to medication. 

I have not experienced that personally, so I am probably not the best person to address this, but I believe that the Lord can still find ways to reach out and touch us as we seek him.  It may not be in the way we are used to.

[Fair Dinkum]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Right.  And you have repeatedly and publicly impugned his honesty on that point.

Again, I don't know how else to construe this:

"I wish the church would just be honest and transparent..."

And this:

"Good for them, it's what they should have done here.   They were honest and transparent in Erda. I was hoping that they would do the same here but instead chose to play the revelation card..."

If these are not public accusastions of lying, then what are they?

You also said that you "with the church would just be honest and transparent," the context being that the Church has not been honest and transparent.  Right?  Right?

You also said that the leaders of the Church were "honest and transparent" about the Tooele temple, and that you were "hoping that they would do the same thing {be 'honest and transparent'} here but instead..."  But instead they did . . . what?  They - as you put it - "play{ed} the revelation card."  They, as you put it, were not "honest and transparent."

So if that's not a public accusation of lying, then what is it?

And yet you still managed to publicly accuse Elder Rasband of not being "honest and transparent."  A couple of times, actually.

You have repeatedly and publicly accused Elder Rasband of not being "honest and transparent."  Right?

You have publicly accused Elder Rasband of dishonesty by "playing the revelation card."  Right?

You have repeatedly and publicly juxtaposed honesty and transparency with Elder Rasband's remarks, with the the latter falling outside the ambit of the former.  Right?

I am reminded of a scene from  A Man for All Seasons, where Will Roper asked Sir Thomas More for permission to marry More’s daughter:

Dishonesty is not a likeable word, either.  Nor is lying a likable thing.

And yet here you are, having repeatedly and publicly accused Elder Rasband of that.

I get that you dislike your accusations against him being characterized as accusations of lying.  But that's how they come across.  Bigly.  Plainly.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 

[Fair Dinkum]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Exactly:  If everything is a miracle, then nothing is a miracle.

And if everything is a revelation then nothing is a revelation 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

And if everything is a revelation then nothing is a revelation 

By George, I think you've got it. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Quote

"I wish the church would just be honest and transparent..."

 

Churches are not honest and transparent.  People are honest and transparent.  Or not. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened.   I don’t see any limitation to that promise.   The Lord can direct us for good without relieving us of agency.   He can teach us things about ourselves to bring about real change and we’ll-being/healing in our lives.  When I am practicing, I feel like I am being directed to a better version of myself.  I don’t feel like I am assimilating to a borg in the sense that I don’t have agency and independence, but I do feel a very real sense of oneness with my Father - so in that sense, there is a a surrender and assimilation of sorts.

I like to think of God as a good, loving parent.  He might help me across the street when I am too young to do it on my own, but there does come a time when the parent must let go and allow the kid to do it on his own -- despite the risks.  We cannot learn when the parent is constantly hovering and making our decisions for us.  The iron rod or the liahona are nice, and they are helpful, but we are supposedly learning eternal lessons.  If we cannot function on our own, without a voice constantly in our ear, we may find ourselves too weak to deal with true risks.  If life is all about gaining experience and being tested, what value is there in having all the answers constantly spoon-fed to us?  Isn't that like cheating on the test?

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I like to think of God as a good, loving parent.  He might help me across the street when I am too young to do it on my own, but there does come a time when the parent must let go and allow the kid to do it on his own -- despite the risks.  We cannot learn when the parent is constantly hovering and making our decisions for us.  The iron rod or the liahona are nice, and they are helpful, but we are supposedly learning eternal lessons.  If we cannot function on our own, without a voice constantly in our ear, we may find ourselves too weak to deal with true risks.  If life is all about gaining experience and being tested, what value is there in having all the answers constantly spoon-fed to us?  Isn't that like cheating on the test?

I completely agree that we should not expect him to make every decisions for us.  That is not how I experience his guidance. Rather, I feel He teaches me about myself.  He shows me my weaknesses and strengths and as I humble myself before Him, I become a stronger, better version of myself, capable of making better decisions on my own.  He refines me.  While it may be me who is driving, I feel that He is the vehicle that carries me every day.  Sometimes I do feel inspired to go a different way, a way that I would not have chosen for myself.  Those are always the most profound and growing experiences of all when I bend my knee and say “thy will be done.”
 

I sometimes wonder if the test is about learning how to go it on our own, as you say, or if the test is to see if we will learn to let go and let God...as they say.   Surrender of the ego in placing His will above our own. I agree that he ultimately wants us to use our own agency for good and learning, but when we walk in the Spirit, it is sometimes difficult to decipher if it is our will or His will inside us.  They somehow become one.  
 

There are times where it is very clear however that the Lord is directing me for good, even in the day to day grind.  I have no doubt that the prophet, seer, and revelator for the church is more intimate than I with deciphering revelation, even in the minute details of the organization.  My own personal experience with the Lord leaves me no reason to doubt his expression that it was revealed to Him.  

Edited May 7, 2021 by pogi

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened. I don’t see any limitation to that promise.

Nor do I. Nor do the prophets, it would seem.

James E. Faust:

Quote

I wish to speak today of a special dimension of the gospel: the necessity for constant communication with God through the process known as divine revelation. This principle is basic to our belief. President Wilford Woodruff declared: “Whenever the Lord had a people on the earth that He acknowledged as such, that people were led by revelation” (In Journal of Discourses, 24:240.) I affirm at the beginning that the inspiration of God is available to all who worthily seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is particularly true of those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Russell M. Nelson:

Quote

One of the things the Spirit has repeatedly impressed upon my mind since my new calling as President of the Church is how willing the Lord is to reveal His mind and will. The privilege of receiving revelation is one of the greatest gifts of God to His children.

Through the manifestations of the Holy Ghost, the Lord will assist us in all our righteous pursuits. I remember in an operating room, I have stood over a patient—unsure how to perform an unprecedented procedure—and experienced the Holy Ghost diagramming the technique in my mind ...

Imagine the miracle of it! Whatever our Church calling, we can pray to our Heavenly Father and receive guidance and direction, be warned about dangers and distractions, and be enabled to accomplish things we simply could not do on our own. If we will truly receive the Holy Ghost and learn to discern and understand His promptings, we will be guided in matters large and small ...

Brothers and sisters, how can we become the men and women—the Christlike servants—the Lord needs us to be? How can we find answers to questions that perplex us? If Joseph Smith’s transcendent experience in the Sacred Grove teaches us anything, it is that the heavens are open and that God speaks to His children ...

Does God really want to speak to you? Yes! “As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course … as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints” ...

I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt [seek], thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

More important, I haven't experienced any limitation to the promise either. Frequent revelation is an essential part of living up to our privileges.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Stargazer]

On 5/6/2021 at 6:09 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Their primary source of authority is the text of Scripture (sola scriptura) -- without the possibility of new Scripture.

There is a great deal of comfort with that. From their point of view, anyway, because there are no surprises.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Nor do I. Nor do the prophets, it would seem.

James E. Faust:

Russell M. Nelson:

More important, I haven't experienced any limitation to the promise either. Frequent revelation is an essential part of living up to our privileges.

I note that Pres Faust specifically used the term "inspiration," rather than the heavier term "revelation."  We might want to think about that for a moment.  We also need to consider our human limitations, which always interfere in clear reception of the Lord's will.  Even when we do the best we can, as did Abraham while placing his son upon the altar on Mt Moriah, we don't have the full picture.  Abe did not realize the full implications, until a ram in a thicket was substituted for his son as a blood sacrifice.  Only then did he realize that it was a test of his faith.  At the same time, it was a type of Jesus Christ -- who would be the son sacrificed by God the Father in a real blood sacrifice, a human sacrifice.  The full gravity of such matters is seldom disclosed to us.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I completely agree that we should not expect him to make every decisions for us.  That is not how I experience his guidance. Rather, I feel He teaches me about myself.  He shows me my weaknesses and strengths and as I humble myself before Him, I become a stronger, better version of myself, capable of making better decisions on my own.  He refines me.  While it may be me who is driving, I feel that He is the vehicle that carries me every day.  Sometimes I do feel inspired to go a different way, a way that I would not have chosen for myself.  Those are always the most profound and growing experiences of all when I bend my knee and say “thy will be done.”

I sometimes wonder if the test is about learning how to go it on our own, as you say, or if the test is to see if we will learn to let go and let God...as they say.   Surrender of the ego in placing His will above our own. I agree that he ultimately wants us to use our own agency for good and learning, but when we walk in the Spirit, it is sometimes difficult to decipher if it is our will or His will inside us.  They somehow become one.

There are times where it is very clear however that the Lord is directing me for good, even in the day to day grind.  I have no doubt that the prophet, seer, and revelator for the church is more intimate than I with deciphering revelation, even in the minute details of the organization.  My own personal experience with the Lord leaves me no reason to doubt his expression that it was revealed to Him.  

When put that way, it seems to make perfect sense.  The problem arises when one version of that inspiration conflicts with another.  I am thinking, for example, of two towering figures of this Church who could not agree on three specifics:  Apostle Orson Pratt and President Brigham Young on (1) Adam-God, (2) slavery, and (3) priesthood for Black men.  If inspiration is so clear, why could they not agree on these issues?  Indeed, why would Elder McConkie confess in 1978 that he and Brother Brigham had spoken without "light and knowledge"?  Today it is precisely the theology of Orson Pratt which we follow in all three matters, which is what Joseph Smith had taught in the first instance.

We need to be far more humble in making claims about personal inspiration.  Our Prophet is after all an ordinary man who has some extraordinary responsibilities.  We do him and the Lord no favor by imagining that he is infallible.  @Fair Dinkum shows the result of that mistake.

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Or the First Presidency heard the cries of protests and plea's from the people of Manti and reconsidered their decision.  My complaint is the need to claim a revelation for something that is an obvious administrative decision.  Why does it even need to be any thing more than that?

It doesn't necessarily need to be anything more than that. But when it was by revelation, why lie and say it's something else?

 

[Stargazer]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

I assumed that as well and it may be true for many, but some I have encountered believe it is an insult or mistrust of God to ask questions when they believe they already have the answers in other ways...and that depends on how they interpret their situation.  For example, they don’t need to pray about how to treat spouses or gays in specific situations because they believe they already have been given for general. 

I remember praying earnestly about whether or not to serve a full-time mission, and getting absolutely no response whatsoever. I was puzzled about that lack until I realized that I had already been given the answer previously by other means. That occurred again while I was getting ready to serve my mission. I figured I had to do all the requisite formalities, so, having never actually done the Moroni 10:4-5 test, I diligently read the Book of Mormon all the way through, then prayed to ask if it was true. When, after several attempts at prayer, I got bupkis from the Lord, I was annoyed. With whom was I annoyed? The Lord, of course. And then I realized: I already knew the Book of Mormon was true. It had been shown to me previously on a number of occasions. 

After that, I stopped trying to get the Lord to confirm what I already knew. I don't think it's an insult or mistrust of God to ask Him -- just pointless.

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think some folks have a facile and blinkered perspective on how revelation in the Church works.  The Brethren are not mindless automatons, incapable of functioning or making a decision until and unless the Lord puts a thought into their heads.  I think the Lord does guide them a lot, in ways large and small.  But I also think the Lord can and does leave them to function and make decisions according to their informed and reasonably-exercised discretion.

Joseph Smith said: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”  I think the Lord does that quite often.

I am reminded of how it came to be that I joined the church.

I was an extremely shy person as a teenager. Almost to the point of it being pathological at times. But one day when I was 14, I was walking home from school when I saw another young man walking on the opposite side of the road from me. And I did something that was utterly unimaginable for me at the time (and nearly so now): I crossed the street to talk to him. It was a most amazing interaction. Within five minutes I had asked him what he wanted to do when he grew up, and his response was that he wanted to go on a mission. Of course he was a Mormon, and after about a year, so was I.

I didn't fully realize what had happened to me until much later. I was being guided ever so quietly and ever so subtly. I didn't notice any kind of compulsion or influence at all. But it was extremely obvious in retrospect that the Lord had directed me into a situation where I could either go His way, or not, as I chose.

Having had many experiences with administration in the Church, it is obvious to me that this is how the Lord interacts with those whom He calls to be leaders in His church. Occasionally, when it's important, the Lord makes His presence and will more clearly known, but most of the time, "subtle is the Lord."

[teddyaware]

9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

 

I view this speechless, apparently exasperated nonresponse as an admission of defeat.

A question: Is it by means of personal revelation that you know the leaders are being less than honest or is it just a strong hunch?

[CA Steve]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened.   I don’t see any limitation to that promise.   The Lord can direct us for good without relieving us of agency.   He can teach us things about ourselves to bring about real change and we’ll-being/healing in our lives.  When I am practicing, I feel like I am being directed to a better version of myself.  I don’t feel like I am assimilating to a borg in the sense that I don’t have agency and independence, but I do feel a very real sense of oneness with my Father - so in that sense, there is a a surrender and assimilation of sorts.

I think our difference here is one of definitions rather than processes. I grew up in a family where your experiences with communication with God were common for members in my family, especially for my mom, and while they were viewed as special, perhaps even sacred at times, they were not seen as miraculous. I tend to hold to that sentiment. When God acts the way He promises He will and can act why is that considered miraculous?

As has been stated above if anything is miraculous, nothing is. We are way past the point in Mormonism where even finding our car keys can be claimed as a miracle. It dilutes real miracles in my mind.

Edited May 7, 2021 by CA Steve

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I view this speechless, apparently exasperated nonresponse as an admission of defeat.

A question: Is it by means of personal revelation that you know the leaders are being less than honest or is it just a strong hunch?

I don't think they lie about it, I think they believe they got inspiration on it, or felt like a decision was ok'd by God by their feeling it was. Many feel they get this from God, so no biggie that they do as well. I didn't hear "revelation" spoken by Pres Nelson anyway, only that he was impressed, so that is different IMO. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Tacenda

[smac97]

15 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

What kind of analysis is this? 

A candid one.

15 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Instead of responding to the merits,

What merits?  

15 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

you get into a fistfight of words over who's calling whom a liar?

No.  We already know who's accusing whom of dishonesty.  He has been, and now you are (calling me a "mo{u}ntebank").

Nevertheless, I've made my point.  I'll leave you the last word if you like (or Fair Dinkum).

Thanks,

-Smac