Ephraim temple announcement revelation or caving to public pressure

[Bob Crockett]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A candid one.

What merits?  

No.  We already know who's accusing whom of dishonesty.  He has been, and now you are (calling me a "mo{u}ntebank").

Nevertheless, I've made my point.  I'll leave you the last word if you like (or Fair Dinkum).

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Sort of a Star Chamber approach to the Gospel when the Church doesn't ever employ a Star Chamber.

[smac97]

.

Edited May 7, 2021 by smac97

[Fair Dinkum]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It doesn't necessarily need to be anything more than that. But when it was by revelation, why lie and say it's something else?

 

Because, as I've stated so often in this thread, it stretches incredulity to imagine that those protest had zero impact on the reversal as Elder Rasband claimed.  If you chose to live in a magical world where silent prayers are heard but loud public protests, marches and rallies are somehow not, be my guest but its equivalent to denying the light and heat of the noon day sun while standing  in the middle of the Mojave Desert.  You are free to claim it isn't there, but I can still see the sweat running down your face.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Fair Dinkum]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I view this speechless, apparently exasperated nonresponse as an admission of defeat.

A question: Is it by means of personal revelation that you know the leaders are being less than honest or is it just a strong hunch?

I tire of bagging my head repeatedly into a dense brick wall.  I can explain the ridiculousness of the claim that silent prayers were somehow heard but loud public rallies, marches and protests were somehow not.  But at some point I just have to accept that a dense wall is just that, dense and move on.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Fair Dinkum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

A candid one.

What merits?  

No.  We already know who's accusing whom of dishonesty.  He has been, and now you are (calling me a "mo{u}ntebank").

Nevertheless, I've made my point.  I'll leave you the last word if you like (or Fair Dinkum).

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I again reiterate that I have called no one a liar.  That you continue to put words in my mouth or distort my posts to serve your need to pigeon hole me is on you not me.  I just find Elder Rasband's assertion implausible in light of the evidence.  I would think that you as a lawyer would understand this. But evidentially you are not an honest interlocutor, you seem to have an agenda to misrepresent my posts.  So be it.

Elder Rasband is expecting us to believe that the protests, rallies and marches had absolutely no bearing on the reversal.  Sorry I just find that impossible to believe.  He very well may believe that the earth is flat but I can see the curvature of the earth, I've seen photos of the earth from space and at least to me the earth is not flat but a sphere.  That he and I disagree does not make him a liar in what he believes to be true, it just makes his claim implausible in light of the extenuating evidence. As evidenced by this thread, he has convinced many on this board that the earth is flat. That does not make him a liar, as you assert I have claimed,  we evidently just process evidence differently.

I don't know if this matters but I actually know Elder Rasband on a first name basis.  He's a good man and I respect him.  He is a man of deep faith. But I also question the wisdom if ignoring the reality of the facts and making a claim that is implausible on the surface and goes against the public record.  Had he merely stated that we've heard your voices and prayers, this thread wouldn't have even been started.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

When put that way, it seems to make perfect sense.  The problem arises when one version of that inspiration conflicts with another.  I am thinking, for example, of two towering figures of this Church who could not agree on three specifics:  Apostle Orson Pratt and President Brigham Young on (1) Adam-God, (2) slavery, and (3) priesthood for Black men.  If inspiration is so clear, why could they not agree on these issues?  Indeed, why would Elder McConkie confess in 1978 that he and Brother Brigham had spoken without "light and knowledge"?  Today it is precisely the theology of Orson Pratt which we follow in all three matters, which is what Joseph Smith had taught in the first instance.

We need to be far more humble in making claims about personal inspiration.  Our Prophet is after all an ordinary man who has some extraordinary responsibilities.  We do him and the Lord no favor by imagining that he is infallible.  @Fair Dinkum shows the result of that mistake.

My personal experience wih revelation is that it is progressive.  The Lord has to start with me where I am, and as I am.  He builds line upon line, precept upon precept.  Each line altering/enhancing my understanding of the previous line, until I look back and see that my original percpective of a principle is not what it used to be, yet I feel the Lord was directing me the entire way to get where I am.  In other words, I felt that my understanding was inspired even in the begining stages (and I think it was), even if I can look back now and see how far I still had to go.  For me personally, I rarely get the holistic and grand perspective right of the bat, it is usually puzzle pieces here and there until the larger picture comes into view.  I think that is why 2 people who feel inspired can understand a principle so different from each other.  As the poem states “they were partly in the right, but all were in the wrong”.  I think that will be the case until we can see things as he sees holistically.   As long as we keep clinging to that light, we will all be guided to that same holistic vision, but will likely disagree along the way, while crossing paths every now and then.

I am not claiming infalibility.  But until I have reason to doubt his claim, then why doubt? 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I think our difference here is one of definitions rather than processes. I grew up in a family where your experiences with communication with God were common for members in my family, especially for my mom, and while they were viewed as special, perhaps even sacred at times, they were not seen as miraculous. I tend to hold to that sentiment. When God acts the way He promises He will and can act why is that considered miraculous?

As has been stated above if anything is miraculous, nothing is. We are way past the point in Mormonism where even finding our car keys can be claimed as a miracle. It dilutes real miracles in my mind.

Its just a matter of perspective I guess.  I consider every breath a miracle.  Just because life is common, doesnt make it any less miraculous to me.     It helps me maintain a deep sense of gratitude and reliance on the Lord.  I feel like it helps me not take things for granted.  I feel like it enhances my well-being by appreciating the miracle of the grace of God in bestowing me breath and life, and surrounding me with the beauty of creation, and I find it completely miraculous that this great and grand creator wants to have a relationship with lowly me and cares about my well-being.  THAT is absolutely miraculous. I feel like downgrading this from miraculous, doesnt capture the majesty and grandeur of the very breath of life.  

[Bob Crockett]

36 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I again reiterate that I have called no one a liar.  That you continue to put words in my mouth or distort my posts to serve your need to pigeon hole me is on you not me.  I just find Elder Rasband's assertion implausible in light of the evidence.  I would think that you as a lawyer would understand this. But evidentially you are not honest interlocutor, you seem to have an agenda to misrepresent my posts.  So be it.

Elder Rasband is expecting us to believe that the protests, rallies and marches had absolutely no bearing on the reversal.  Sorry I just find that impossible to believe.  He very well may believe that the earth is flat but I can see the curvature of the earth, I've seen photos of the earth from space and at least to me the earth is not flat but a sphere.  That he and I disagree does not make him a liar in what he believes to be true, it just makes his claim implausible in light of the extenuating evidence. As evidenced by this thread, he has convinced many that the earth is flat. That does not make him a liar as you assert I have claimed.

I don't know if this matters but I actually know Elder Rasband on a first name basis.  He's a good man and I respect him.  He is a man of deep faith. But I also question the wisdom if ignoring the reality of the facts and making a claim that is implausible on the surface and goes against the public record.  Had he merely stated that we've heard your voices and prayers, this thread wouldn't have even been started.

I just don't see a problem with the Brethren changing their minds or even erring in the application of revelation or bowing to public pressure.  I  guess your objection is that Elder Rasband said there was a revelation to change the temple location?

[CA Steve]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Its just a matter of perspective I guess.  I consider every breath a miracle.  Just because life is common, doesnt make it any less miraculous to me.     It helps me maintain a deep sense of gratitude and reliance on the Lord.  I feel like it helps me not take things for granted.  I feel like it enhances my well-being by appreciating the miracle of the grace of God in bestowing me breath and life, and surrounding me with the beauty of creation, and I find it completely miraculous that this great and grand creator wants to have a relationship with lowly me and cares about my well-being.  THAT is absolutely miraculous. I feel like downgrading this from miraculous, doesnt capture the majesty and grandeur of the very breath of life.  

Life is amazing but to place your descriptions above with a mundane announcement about temple construction cheapens the former.

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Life is amazing but to place your descriptions above with a mundane announcement about temple construction cheapens the former.

I find the direction of the eternal God in our day to day lives, even the mundane, to be absolutely amazing and miracuous.  On the contrary, I feel that downgrading the personal direction of the Most High God, cheapens God.  

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I don't know if this matters but I actually know Elder Rasband on a first name basis.  He's a good man and I respect him.  He is a man of deep faith. But I also question the wisdom if ignoring the reality of the facts and making a claim that is implausible on the surface and goes against the public record.  Had he merely stated that we've heard your voices and prayers, this thread wouldn't have even been started.

Maybe you should ask him what he meant in the interview?

[CA Steve]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

I find the direction of the eternal God in our day to day lives, even the mundane, to be absolutely amazing and miracuous.  On the contrary, I feel that downgrading the personal direction of the Most High God, cheapens God.  

Not really, God has show Himself capable of being involved  even in finding keys according to some. If that's miraculous, what cannot be described as such?

Again, if everything is miraculous, nothing is.

Tell me, can you find anything in your life you don't consider miraculous? Why?

[Fair Dinkum]

48 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I just don't see a problem with the Brethren changing their minds or even erring in the application of revelation or bowing to public pressure.  I  guess your objection is that Elder Rasband said there was a revelation to change the temple location?

I don't have a problem with it either.  My issue is that Elder Rasband claimed that the protests, rallies and marches played no part in their decision to reverse themselves.  He didn't have to go there but he chose to specifically make that assertion.

[Fair Dinkum]

31 minutes ago, webbles said:

Maybe you should ask him what he meant in the interview?

Ha ha, yeah...we used to do a lot of business together when he was with Huntsman but I doubt he'd return my calls now.  I only bring up our connection so that Smac realizes that I admire the man and hold him in high esteem and would never call him a liar.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I mean if I can't explain why I just found my car keys, is that a miracle?

Maybe. Maybe not. Probably not, most of the time.

It's been something that has been ridiculed on this forum from time to time. Nonbelievers seem to shake their heads in condescension: why would God deign to help someone find their keys? It seems like such a trivial exercise of divine power, when so many far more important things could be seen to, if God were so inclined, or if He were asked about them.

To which I respond, why does God have to do monumentally momentous things before they can be called a miracle? Of course, the vast majority of keys are found without divine intervention. Or never found at all. God hardly needs to jump in where we are fully capable of finding them ourselves. But even then, sometimes He may jump in, regardless.

And, by the way, I have a car keys lost and found story, if you're interested.

[pogi]

39 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Not really, God has show Himself capable of being involved  even in finding keys according to some. If that's miraculous, what cannot be described as such?

Again, if everything is miraculous, nothing is.

Tell me, can you find anything in your life you don't consider miraculous? Why?

Covid 😁

I’ll be honest, I can probably find something miraculous about most things in my life.  I would say that they are on a continuum of grandeur, however.  They don't all bring the same sense of wonder...but what a tragedy to lose the sense of wonder and majesty in life.  I think we have lost perspective if that happens.  It is easy to lose sight of the miraculous nature of existence and all things in it, but I think that reminding ourselves daily in meditation keeps a healthy perspective and enhances well-being.  What is so wrong with that?  If the point of life is joy, and if joy is enhanced by recognizing the miraculous in the mundane, then why the heck not?  

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I don't have a problem with it either.  My issue is that Elder Rasband claimed that the protests, rallies and marches played no part in their decision to reverse themselves.  He didn't have to go there but he chose to specifically make that assertion.

I guess this kind of stuff isn't enough to get my psyche out of whack.  

When you see all the major errors the Apostles made in the NT, you have to sympathize with them a little.  Maybe Elder Rasband was just engaging in unnecessary justification.  I have a more naturalistic view of the church and how it is guided.  If the brethren get together and a quorum is present and a decision is made, ratified by prayer, that is the type of revelation which guides the Church.

When President JF Smith testified in the Reed Smoot hearings, the Senate lawyer asked him if he had ever, since becoming President, had a revelation.  He said "no."   President Smith and his lawyers took a break, either for lunch or for the next day.  President Smith came back and said he had to amend his answer.  He said that the church is guided by the brethren meeting together, making a decision, and being guided by the spirit.  

That is consistent with the Savior's observation that where two or three or gathered in his name, and whatever they decide, that will be done.

That doesn't preclude a theophany which may occur to some prophets.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Bob Crockett

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I don't have a problem with it either.  My issue is that Elder Rasband claimed that the protests, rallies and marches played no part in their decision to reverse themselves.  He didn't have to go there but he chose to specifically make that assertion.

I don't see anything wrong with him going there.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

My personal experience wih revelation is that it is progressive.  The Lord has to start with me where I am, and as I am.  He builds line upon line, precept upon precept.  Each line altering/enhancing my understanding of the previous line, until I look back and see that my original percpective of a principle is not what it used to be, yet I feel the Lord was directing me the entire way to get where I am.  In other words, I felt that my understanding was inspired even in the begining stages (and I think it was), even if I can look back now and see how far I still had to go.  For me personally, I rarely get the holistic and grand perspective right of the bat, it is usually puzzle pieces here and there until the larger picture comes into view.  I think that is why 2 people who feel inspired can understand a principle so different from each other.  As the poem states “they were partly in the right, but all were in the wrong”.  I think that will be the case until we can see things as he sees holistically.   As long as we keep clinging to that light, we will all be guided to that same holistic vision, but will likely disagree along the way, while crossing paths every now and then.

I am not claiming infalibility.  But until I have reason to doubt his claim, then why doubt? 

There is considerable difference between the approach recommended by Moroni 10:4-7 and that in Alma 32:26-43, just as there is a difference between the Liahona and the iron rod of Lehi's vision.  If we don't get that elementary fact, we may come to be frustrated and impatient with what appear to be contradictions in Scripture and with the inconsistent behavior of our leaders.  Our perceptions may call for rejection of the faith, or at least skepticism about some aspects of it.  Those are real problems for some -- frequently based on unreasonable expectations.  I feel that this is where @Fair Dinkum is coming from.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[Fair Dinkum]

19 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is considerable difference between the approach recommended by Moroni 10:4-7 and that in Alma 32:26-43, just as there is a difference between the Liahona and the iron rod of Lehi's vision.  If we don't get that elementary fact, we may come to be frustrated and impatient with what appear to be contradictions in Scripture and with the inconsistent behavior of our leaders.  Our perceptions may call for rejection of the faith, or at least skepticism about some aspects of it.  Those are real problems for some -- frequently based on unreasonable expectations.  I feel that this is where @Fair Dinkum is coming from.

An excerpt from my dairy entry today: "I think Robert F. Smith made a back handed attempt to come to my defense today on MD&D.  At least he's making an attempt to understand me. I think my nefarious plans to slowly nudge him to the dark side are starting to pay dividends 😈" 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is considerable difference between the approach recommended by Moroni 10:4-7 and that in Alma 32:26-43, just as there is a difference between the Liahona and the iron rod of Lehi's vision.  If we don't get that elementary fact, we may come to be frustrated and impatient with what appear to be contradictions in Scripture and with the inconsistent behavior of our leaders.  Our perceptions may call for rejection of the faith, or at least skepticism about some aspects of it.  Those are real problems for some -- frequently based on unreasonable expectations.  I feel that this is where @Fair Dinkum is coming from.

I agree that those perceptions and expectations are problems for some.   Another perception and expectation problem is automatically assuming that they are lying and deceiving by claiming revelation.  
 

I understand that leaders can be fallible, and so I don’t automatically accept what they claim as truth without seeking further evidence and personal confirmation, but I don’t automatically dismiss it on ignorant assumptions either.  That seems careless and on the opposite extreme of the blind follower.

Edited May 7, 2021 by pogi

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree that those perceptions and expectations are problems for some.   Another perception and expectation problem is automatically assuming that they are lying and deceiving by claiming revelation.  
I understand that leaders can be fallible, and so I don’t automatically accept what they claim as truth without seeking further evidence and personal confirmation, but I don’t automatically dismiss it on ignorant assumptions either.  That seems careless and on the opposite extreme of the blind follower.

Correct.  Brother Brigham himself argued that LDS members should not simply accept what he said, but should go the Lord in prayer to find out if Brigham was speaking the Lord's will.  He was worried about people who lived on "borrowed light."  Too many people, both in and out of the Church, skip that step, making automatic assumptions -- sometimes correctly, given the odds of dealing with fallible humans.  Even though he was an excommunicant, Mike Quinn did not make that mistake.

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Because, as I've stated so often in this thread, it stretches incredulity to imagine that those protest had zero impact on the reversal as Elder Rasband claimed.  If you chose to live in a magical world where silent prayers are heard but loud public protests, marches and rallies are somehow not, be my guest but its equivalent to denying the light and heat of the noon day sun while standing  in the middle of the Mojave Desert.  You are free to claim it isn't there, but I can still see the sweat running down your face.

I would be surprised if the protests were the controlling factor. In my opinion, the protests caused the Brethren to reapproach the Lord for a variance on what they had understood to be His will previously. And the Lord is surely entitled to change His mind, don't you think?

Now, my experience in the matter of revelation leads me to the conviction that the Lord rarely dictates. He most often agrees or disagrees with proposals. 

We read this in DC 9:7-9...

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
            8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
            9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

Now, you might wish to believe that the decision in the matter at hand was simply a callow surrender to the will of the mob masquerading as a supposed "revelation." If so, you're entitled to believe anything you want. 

I believe differently, because my experiences with the likely process used to obtain this decision leads me to trust that the Lord was decisively involved with it.

And if the Lord had said "NO", we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Stargazer

[Fair Dinkum]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I would be surprised if the protests were the controlling factor. In my opinion, the protests caused the Brethren to reapproach the Lord for a variance on what they had understood to be His will previously. And the Lord is surely entitled to change His mind, don't you think?

Now, my experience in the matter of revelation leads me to the conviction that the Lord rarely dictates. He most often agrees or disagrees with proposals. 

We read this in DC 9:7-9...

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
            8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
            9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

Now, you might wish to believe that the decision in the matter at hand was simply a callow surrender to the will of the mob masquerading as a supposed "revelation." If so, you're entitled to believe anything you want. 

I believe differently, because my experiences with the likely process used to obtain this decision leads me to trust that the Lord was decisively involved with it.

And if the Lord had said "NO", we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

While I agree with you...this is not what Elder Rasband stated. He claimed that the reversal was not influenced by the outcry

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

While I agree with you...this is not what Elder Rasband stated. He claimed that the reversal was not influenced by the outcry

Perhaps his understanding of the word "influence" differs from yours and mine, then.

Oh, well. SMS.