Fair Dinkum Posted April 22, 2021 Author Posted April 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, Calm said: You did not overstate then? Added: went back and reread, apparently you meant for your other claim. CFR still stands then. Please give evidence that the Church acted to prevent his employment and an employer was actually told by someone (not just rumors that it would happen) that all donations (not just one man even if main donor) would dry up. Asked and answered
Duncan Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 31 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Upon doing some research into the question I felt I had over stated my assertion. Clearly however Quinn stated that he was excommunicated for exposing Mormon history...and the statement that I gave is true...I was loosely quoting Quinn himself and subsequently provided his exact quote. this doesn't make even more sense than before, you said you "overstated my assertion" yet the statement you gave "is true". I coming to the opinion that you don't know what you are talking or if you do you don't know how to express it-Would it help to do research before coming to conclusions? 2
rongo Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 He was actually excommunicated for homosexuality. As has been stated already here, he was complex. In many ways, he believed in and defended much of the Restoration. My uncle, a formidable amateur gospel scholar, told me that you have to be careful with his footnotes --- he tended to misrepresent or leave things out, but you would have to slog through the footnotes and double-check his sources to make sure they said what he said they said. Not all the time, but in some important cases. Overall, he produced some very good stuff. His writings on homosexuality and Joseph Smith were, of course, completely off the rails. He was also the "anonymous historian" who did some apologetic work without revealing his identity. https://www.amazon.com/Answering-Dr-Clandestine-Response-Historian/dp/B0006XEXMC 2
ttribe Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, rongo said: He was actually excommunicated for homosexuality. I know this has been speculated upon numerous times over the years, but you are making a definitive statement. Do you have evidence to back it up? 3
Calm Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 13 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Asked and answered No, you did not. Since my above comment achieves nothing, will report to mods and see if they agree with you or me.
Fair Dinkum Posted April 22, 2021 Author Posted April 22, 2021 Quote In 2004, after a series of fellowships and visiting appointments, he was the only finalist for a tenured position at the University of Utah. But multiple faculty members argued that, in the words of one professor, “Mike was not the right person to head up any kind of Mormon history or Mormon studies program given the fact he’s very publicly excommunicated. There would be quite a number of people in the Mormon community who would look unfavorably on that.” Later that year, Quinn was recommended for a one-year appointment at Arizona State. His hiring was vetoed by the ASU administration, and many observers believe the administration caved to pressure from Ira Fulton, a Mormon donor who between 2003 and 2006 gave at least $155 million to the school. Fulton has called Quinn “a nothing person.” https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/11/d-michael-quinn-and-mormon-excommunication-the-complicated-life-of-a-mormon-intellectual.html
Calm Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Groan...I am NOT a church Critic...geeze Are you critical, even very critical at times, of many things about the Church? Are the majority of your posts that judge the Church positive or negative in their judgments? Edited April 22, 2021 by Calm 3
Fair Dinkum Posted April 22, 2021 Author Posted April 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, Calm said: No, you did not. Since my above comment achieves nothing, will report to mods and see if they agree with you or me. Dear Miss Calm, I have now provided you with not 1 but 2 references confirming my statement.
Calm Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/11/d-michael-quinn-and-mormon-excommunication-the-complicated-life-of-a-mormon-intellectual.html That works as some evidence for your second claim, but does not show the Church acted to block employment of him.
rongo Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, ttribe said: I know this has been speculated upon numerous times over the years, but you are making a definitive statement. Do you have evidence to back it up? Nothing in writing, like communication from his stake president to him or anything like that. If he wasn't excommunicated for his writings, then what else remains? And, I don't think I've ever seen him push back on the claim that it wasn't for his writings. Wouldn't he have at least complained a bit about that if there were some truth to that?
Fair Dinkum Posted April 22, 2021 Author Posted April 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Calm said: Are you critical, even very critical at times, of many things about the Church? Are the majority of your posts that judge the Church positive or negative in their judgments? I ask questions https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1988/05/questions-and-answers/is-it-wrong-to-have-questions-or-to-be-unsure-about-parts-of-the-church?lang=eng 1
ttribe Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, rongo said: Nothing in writing, like communication from his stake president to him or anything like that. If he wasn't excommunicated for his writings, then what else remains? And, I don't think I've ever seen him push back on the claim that it wasn't for his writings. Wouldn't he have at least complained a bit about that if there were some truth to that? So, really, that's speculation on your part. 1
Fair Dinkum Posted April 22, 2021 Author Posted April 22, 2021 Here is the exact quote: Quote The church made it impossible for Quinn to even find employment following his church court and his resignation from BYU. I'll concede. It was powerful members of the church and not "the Church" specifically that we have any record of. Although I do have my suspicions as to who was calling the shots and giving the marching orders. Even Elder Oaks insinuated that Elder Parker was behind the excommunications. That said, given his predicament a simple phone call at the time could have called off the wolves who wanted to destroy this man but to the best of my knowledge non ever were made in his behalf. There happy? The moderator is happy. 2
Popular Post Calm Posted April 22, 2021 Popular Post Posted April 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I ask questions Lol 5
Popular Post InCognitus Posted April 22, 2021 Popular Post Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) I'm sad to hear about his passing. I have a lot of mixed feelings about a few of his publications (intellectually speaking). But I will credit him for helping me to develop critical thinking and the need to check sources for any publication I read. Edit: I wanted to clarify something I said above. My first encounter with Quinn's work was with the 1987 edition of Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. It wasn't his scholarship or sources that I questioned, but with how he construed the meaning and relevance of the sources. But in all fairness to Dr. Quinn, I now recognize that he (along with a lot of other people) was a victim of Mark Hofmann's forgeries. And I view that particular book (as it was published after those forgeries were exposed) as an attempt at filling in a lot of gaps after some of his source material was ripped away from him. It's unfortunate that my experience with that book has tainted my approach to his other books. Because I do see him as an excellent scholar. And I still credit him for teaching me (indirectly) to scrutinize the way that sources are used (in a good way). Edited April 23, 2021 by InCognitus 5
Kevin Christensen Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) On 4/22/2021 at 6:46 PM, ttribe said: I know this has been speculated upon numerous times over the years, but you are making a definitive statement. Do you have evidence to back it up? See Lavina Fielding Anderson's essay, D. Michael Quinn, DNA Mormon in Mormon Mavericks from Signature Books. Quinn provided Anderson with contemporary correspondence from his Stake President, which she quotes in the essay. FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Edited April 27, 2021 by Kevin Christensen 2
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted April 22, 2021 Popular Post Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: He changed the course of Mormonism. I owe so much of what I believe and understand regarding the church today to this man. His Magic World View book rocked my world and changed forever how I view the church. RIP Dr Quinn He made waves in the study and writing of Church history, but I think it overwrought to say he “changed the course of Mormonism.” Changing how you personally view the Church is not changing the Church itself. Edited April 22, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 5
Calm Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 49 minutes ago, ttribe said: So, really, that's speculation on your part. And found this as to an alleged specific reason, not homosexuality, but not history either. Could be indirectly either though depending on what priesthood leaders were talking to him about. Since we don’t know if these inside sources attended the council or if Quinn understood them correctly, I am not judging the below as strong evidence FYI...so please don’t expect me to defend Quinn’s claim. Quote Quinn claims that inside sources told him that the high council could not agree on the apostasy charge, and he was finally excommunicated for failure to meet with his priesthood leaders.[7] https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_Church_discipline/Scholars/D._Michael_Quinn Edited April 22, 2021 by Calm
Kenngo1969 Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: I do find it rather ironic that he was excommunicated for exposing the history of the church ... 2 hours ago, Duncan said: um, there's more to his excommunication than that, i'd be surprised to hear if that is why he was exed Shhhh! Your raining all over Fair Dinkum's agenda-driven parade, Duncan! 2
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted April 23, 2021 Popular Post Posted April 23, 2021 3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: He changed the course of Mormonism. I owe so much of what I believe and understand regarding the church today to this man. His Magic World View book rocked my world and changed forever how I view the church. RIP Dr Quinn A great scholar, no question. And, as Wikipedia comments: "Despite his excommunication and critical writings, Quinn still considers himself to be a Latter-day Saint[8] and believes in Mormonism, but he disagrees with certain policies and doctrines.[9][10]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._Michael_Quinn. It used to anger some members of the anti-Mormon crowd when Quinn would bear his testimony of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Very sorry to see him go at age 77, but I believe that he will find a good deal of mercy and love on the other side. 13
Popular Post rongo Posted April 23, 2021 Popular Post Posted April 23, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Calm said: [quoted from FAIR]: Quinn claims that inside sources told him that the high council could not agree on the apostasy charge, and he was finally excommunicated for failure to meet with his priesthood leaders.[7] That's silly. The high council advised and consented, but didn't determine the outcome (back when high councils participated). Only the stake president determined the outcome. I've participated in non-unanimous disciplinary councils. Only the president authority's decision is the decision of the council, when all is said and done. Granted, if there is sharp disagreement, it's at least a sign that one should be careful and be sure. Edited April 23, 2021 by rongo 5
Kenngo1969 Posted April 23, 2021 Posted April 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: ... Very sorry to see him go at age 77, but I believe that he will find a good deal of mercy and love on the other side. I believe he will, and, indeed, we could all use a strong dose of mercy when confronted with the prospect of returning Home. 3
smac97 Posted April 23, 2021 Posted April 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: A great scholar, no question. And, as Wikipedia comments: "Despite his excommunication and critical writings, Quinn still considers himself to be a Latter-day Saint[8] and believes in Mormonism, but he disagrees with certain policies and doctrines.[9][10]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._Michael_Quinn. It used to anger some members of the anti-Mormon crowd when Quinn would bear his testimony of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Very sorry to see him go at age 77, but I believe that he will find a good deal of mercy and love on the other side. I wonder if we should expect to see, some time down the road, a restoration of his membership and priesthood blessings. I am curious as to how common such posthumous restorations are. Amasa Lyman. Helmuth Hubener. John D. Lee. Thanks, -Smac 1
Calm Posted April 23, 2021 Posted April 23, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: am curious as to how common such posthumous restorations are. Amasa Lyman. Helmuth Hubener. John D. Lee. I would expect it to happen more with family petitioning, especially for a spouse or descendants. Hubener was an exceptional case. Hard to see him as part of a pattern or trend. Edited April 23, 2021 by Calm 2
Duncan Posted April 23, 2021 Posted April 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: I wonder if we should expect to see, some time down the road, a restoration of his membership and priesthood blessings. I am curious as to how common such posthumous restorations are. Amasa Lyman. Helmuth Hubener. John D. Lee. Thanks, -Smac Elder John W. Taylor had his blessing restored as well, he-according to Pres. Grant had more visions and than any of the then current Twelve Apostles put together 4
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