100 billion dollar rant

[Tacenda]

46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

All organizations have problems, warts as you call them.  However, help cannot be directed where needed without organization.  Without organized efforts, those member donations would go down a rabbit hole and help no one -- except the rich savages who would steal it.  In an organization, we can watch each other and keep each other honest.

Very true! Which means individuals need to help those that are nearby hopefully. Or in their neighborhoods. 

40 minutes ago, webbles said:

Deseret Management Corporation (wiki page, http://www.deseretmanagement.com/) is the holding company for all of the for-profit companies that the church owns.  On their site, they have a page that talks about what charity foundations they donate to: http://www.deseretmanagement.com/our-companies/foundations/.

Good to know, thank you.

49 minutes ago, webbles said:

Say you bought a house for $100,000 in 1980.  Now the house is worth $800,000 (just making up numbers).  Should you pay tithing on the $700,000 increase in the house valuation?  Do you pay it when you sell the house or do you pay it every year the value went up?

Say you retire and have a total value of $1,000,000 that you saved over all your years of working.  Do you owe 10% of that as tithing?

I ask these questions because they are roughly equivalent to the 120 billion account.  It is not a yearly amount.  It is a sum total, so it is like having $1,000,000 at retirement after saving everything.  It has also increased in value just like the house did.  I would not expect to pay 10% on the $1 million because I've been paying tithing on all of the income that was then partially saved.

Well, a flat 12 billion then? I think it beats the 1.5 billion since 1985 the critics mention. OR actually the church has mentioned, which is where the critics get it from. But I know the statistics aren't as current, it's a few years old, so maybe it's increased somewhat. 

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

This thread seems to be a tacit acknowledgement of the need by some to explain why Jesus Christ's church has 100B+ in reserves. I wish I had so much money that people would criticize how I spent it.

It doesn't really matter how much you have.  Put it out on the internet, with a list of what you spend it on, and I guarantee people will criticize your choices.  Especially those who don't think it's fair that you have more than they do and those who don't like you personally.

[MiserereNobis]

17 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

And Catholic Charities, Knights of Columbus, Oral Roberts, the Vatican. 

Hey, three of those four are Catholic!  

And we do a pretty good job when it comes to charity. Certainly because of our size and infrastructure, but also because of our history of running hospitals, schools, etc.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Good luck, "Jim."

Good memories...my son loved that show, so it was bonding time for us.  With my daughter it was Perry Mason.  

Edited March 8, 2021 by Calm

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hey, three of those four are Catholic!  

And we do a pretty good job when it comes to charity. Certainly because of our size and infrastructure, but also because of our history of running hospitals, schools, etc.

When my mom suffered with late stages of Alzheimer's and she couldn't be home any longer, she'd escape and didn't know my dad and became angry asking where Jerry is, my dad use to say how he'd wish the church would open up facilities to help people like her. Maybe I get some of that sentiment from my dad, not blaming him, just hoping I'm not a cad for saying what I do, I guess. 

I like that Catholics have hospitals, cool! 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You have to bribe the rich just to allow a trickle of help to get to the poor. 

And the rich and powerful get more so and increase their oppression of the poor, so if not careful the net result is with charity, the poor are worse off.

Thus the need to be very, very careful with charitable donations to avoid nasty unintended consequences.

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hey, three of those four are Catholic!  

And we do a pretty good job when it comes to charity. Certainly because of our size and infrastructure, but also because of our history of running hospitals, schools, etc.

You must do an awesome job because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints trusts you guys with a lot of their resources.  I know that the Bishop's Storehouse in Layton provides food to different Catholic food pantries because, according the volunteers that work at the storehouse, "they already have the infrastructure in place and there is no need to reinvent the wheel."

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You must do an awesome job because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints trusts you guys with a lot of their resources.  I know that the Bishop's Storehouse in Layton provides food to different Catholic food pantries because, according the volunteers that work at the storehouse, "they already have the infrastructure in place and there is no need to reinvent the wheel."

Our food bank here got a big shipment of food in from the LDS church at the beginning of the pandemic. There could have been more, but I read about that shipment in the diocese newsletter.

When it comes to charity, it's good that we can all set aside any doctrinal differences and just work together as Christians to alleviate the suffering of others.

[MiserereNobis]

45 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I like that Catholics have hospitals, cool! 

From wikipedia:

Quote

The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world.[1] It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries.[2] In 2010, the Church's Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Health Care Workers said that the Church manages 26% of the world's health care facilities.[3] 

As it's been said previously, there's no need to for the LDS church to open a hospital in a place where the Catholic Church already has one up and running. Donating to the hospital would be more efficient than running a parallel one.

[Anonymous Mormon]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My problem as well is that the church gets donations from it's members for the humanitarian needs, but what about the corporation side of the church? Why don't they donate? Every report seems to say that the donations come from it's members. What about the church's businesses? Just asking, please don't clobber me for that, or go ahead, "make my day"!  ETA: The church asks 10% tithing plus fast offerings from it's members but what about the corporate side, or the 120 billion in an account that has built up or all the other wealth the church has. What about payment of tithing from that? If we do the numbers, 12 billion is 10% of that 120 billion mark, for example. But the church has supposedly only given 1.2 billion (last reported) since 1985. But I understand the church does more but not nearly 12 billion, or maybe someone knows more than me, haha. (Oops, the members gave 1.2 billion, clearly not the corporate side.) So why do they not have to give at the least, 10 percent?

“The annual report is part of our accountability back to the Latter-day Saints who have donated to the humanitarian fund on the tithing slip,” Sister Eubank said. “This is part of our reporting back to the people who have given so much, so that they can see what their donations do. ”https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/latter-day-saint-charities-2019-annual-report

I read this the other day, and it seems to apply to this post:

 

@Tacenda- From most of your posts, you seem to be anti-tithing and do not think that the church should ask for tithing or expect members to pay it. Your comment above and this quote seem to back up this viewpoint. (if I mis-state your view, I am sorry - just going off of your posts).

I feel good about my tithing because I believe that it allows God's word to be spread amongst the nations and for ordinances to be performed. This is why I pay tithing, to assist my brothers and sisters around the world in hearing the Gospel and receiving their ordinances.

But, Tacenda, I ask you to do a thought experiment with me for a minute. Imagine that God does indeed love all his children and wants them to get his word and ordinances. Assuming that this is the case, how would he do this without tithing. How would he handle things such as:

• Missionary training?
• Handing out Books of Mormon and / or Bibles?
• Having places for his saints to meet after they accept his word (especially in fledgling branches)?
• Would God's church have a website - who would build it?
• Legal expenses for those that sue His church?
• Would God want to have mobile apps for communicating his word amongst his children? Who would build it?
• How would God get the temple ordinances to the people?
• How would God provide adequate training world wide to try to prevent issues like clergy abuse?
• Etc.

I just can't imagine how God could take his word to the world if everything was built 100% on donated time and local donations which would usually barely cover local needs (like they used to do for buildings). How do you see God taking his word to the world without some kind of funding for it and if so, where does this funding come from?

I personally have no qualms giving 10% of my income to the church to be used in spreading God's word. I do not donate my tithing money to be used for humanitarian needs. As Jesus said, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." The work of the church is to do the Lord's work that he did on the earth, not to feed the poor (Christ didn't spend his time feeding the poor - he spent it preaching his word). I donate time and money outside of my tithing for the purpose of feeding and clothing the poor.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

This thread seems to be a tacit acknowledgement of the need by some to explain why Jesus Christ's church has 100B+ in reserves. I wish I had so much money that people would criticize how I spent it.

Oh you don't have to have that much money to be criticized by how you spend it.  I am careful who I tell when I go out to eat as I have been criticized for it.  

[Rain]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

This thread seems to be a tacit acknowledgement of the need by some to explain why Jesus Christ's church has 100B+ in reserves. I wish I had so much money that people would criticize how I spent it.

Oh you don't have to have that much money to be criticized by how you spend it.  I am careful who I tell when I go out to eat as I have been criticized for it - more than once.  

[Rain]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

From wikipedia:

As it's been said previously, there's no need to for the LDS church to open a hospital in a place where the Catholic Church already has one up and running. Donating to the hospital would be more efficient than running a parallel one.

Yes, that's what the church has found.  Also, they discovered that sometimes it was causing hard feelings because a new charity was seen as competition.  With imperfect people I wouldn't be surprised if attitudes increased those feelings of competition. By working together things get done better than the two apart can do on their own. 1+1=3.

[Rain]

53 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

@Tacenda- From most of your posts, you seem to be anti-tithing and do not think that the church should ask for tithing or expect members to pay it. Your comment above and this quote seem to back up this viewpoint. (if I mis-state your view, I am sorry - just going off of your posts).

I feel good about my tithing because I believe that it allows God's word to be spread amongst the nations and for ordinances to be performed. This is why I pay tithing, to assist my brothers and sisters around the world in hearing the Gospel and receiving their ordinances.

But, Tacenda, I ask you to do a thought experiment with me for a minute. Imagine that God does indeed love all his children and wants them to get his word and ordinances. Assuming that this is the case, how would he do this without tithing. How would he handle things such as:

• Missionary training?
• Handing out Books of Mormon and / or Bibles?
• Having places for his saints to meet after they accept his word (especially in fledgling branches)?
• Would God's church have a website - who would build it?
• Legal expenses for those that sue His church?
• Would God want to have mobile apps for communicating his word amongst his children? Who would build it?
• How would God get the temple ordinances to the people?
• How would God provide adequate training world wide to try to prevent issues like clergy abuse?
• Etc.

I just can't imagine how God could take his word to the world if everything was built 100% on donated time and local donations which would usually barely cover local needs (like they used to do for buildings). How do you see God taking his word to the world without some kind of funding for it and if so, where does this funding come from?

I personally have no qualms giving 10% of my income to the church to be used in spreading God's word. I do not donate my tithing money to be used for humanitarian needs. As Jesus said, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." The work of the church is to do the Lord's work that he did on the earth, not to feed the poor (Christ didn't spend his time feeding the poor - he spent it preaching his word). I donate time and money outside of my tithing for the purpose of feeding and clothing the poor.

I agree that a lot of the money spent goes where it should be going even if it isn't "charity". 

I would guess tbough that he probably did feed the poor.  He certainly stretched a little food to feed many and I would not be surprised if he did this in smaller ways too.  

By healing many he also made it possible for the poor to feed themselves which is why we have money going to help people get jobs, become self reliant, start a new business. 

We even have places like Deseret Industries that help refugees, homeless, people with disabilities etc get on the job training where they can learn enough to get work elsewhere.  At the sort center years ago they even had breaks where they had language classes.

Like with the church we know very little about Jesus' life and time on earth.  He may have helped feed the hungry and clothe the poor much more than we know.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

And the rich and powerful get more so and increase their oppression of the poor, so if not careful the net result is with charity, the poor are worse off.

Thus the need to be very, very careful with charitable donations to avoid nasty unintended consequences.

That's why missionary work is so important.  Without changing people, no real change can take place.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

.......................

Well, a flat 12 billion then? I think it beats the 1.5 billion since 1985 the critics mention. OR actually the church has mentioned, which is where the critics get it from. But I know the statistics aren't as current, it's a few years old, so maybe it's increased somewhat. 

Yes.  The stock market has been increasing by leaps and bounds in recent years.  The current sum should be much, much higher.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That's why missionary work is so important.  Without changing people, no real change can take place.

I agree, the most change will come through education of hearts and minds.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Our food bank here got a big shipment of food in from the LDS church at the beginning of the pandemic. There could have been more, but I read about that shipment in the diocese newsletter.

When it comes to charity, it's good that we can all set aside any doctrinal differences and just work together as Christians to alleviate the suffering of others.

The manager of the Bishop's Storehouse in Salt Lake City told of getting a call from a Latter-day Saint sister missionary who was serving where the latest disaster to hit the U.S. at the time had happened.  Apparently, a group that didn't want those who got the aid to know where it really came from was relabeling goods sent by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in order to obscure the aid's true source.  The sister missionary was indignant.  The manager asked, "What's the problem [meaning, what problem are you there trying to solve]?"  She said, "People are hungry!"  He said, "Exactly!"

I joked about what might happen if someone had discovered the original label:

Man: [Peels off label, revealing a label underneath indicating that, actually, the goods in question come from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]  "What the ... ?"

Calls his wife: "Quick, Honey!  Grab the kids!  We all need to go to the hospital to get our stomachs pumped!"

Wife, Startled: "Why, what on earth for?"

Man [Gasps]: "We just ate some ... Mormon peaches!"

This life-sustaining nourishment brought to you by a soul-destroying cult.  Bon appetit! 

No doubt about it, in many places, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is able to do the work it does because of infrastructure set up by Catholic Charities.  That deserves hearty kudos.

[Ahab]

46 minutes ago, Rain said:

Oh you don't have to have that much money to be criticized by how you spend it.  I am careful who I tell when I go out to eat as I have been criticized for it - more than once.  

Spending money is a charitable act.  Spending money is the act of giving money, rather than holding onto that money in a wallet or purse or bank account.  It doesn't matter much whether the spending of money is in exchange for some other service or product, as long as the money that is given will help someone else.  And the more that money is passed from one person to another the more people that money usually helps.

[Nofear]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

This thread seems to be a tacit acknowledgement of the need by some to explain why Jesus Christ's church has 100B+ in reserves. I wish I had so much money that people would criticize how I spent it.

Actually, it is about (the OP anyway) a rant against the complaint that the small fish (the Church ) isn't doing enough. The criticism isn't even that it doesn't do good, just not enough of it. Well, I might suggest that one could be a much better steward of one's criticism-as-power-for-change and instead of spending that criticism-as-power-for-change currency on the small fish (the Church) saying "more more more!" and instead go after the big fish (e.g. government) saying "better better better".

But, maybe you are spending your criticism-as-power-for-change currency on cost effective targets too. It's ok to spread the wealth around, I suppose. To me, though, it seems your criticism-as-power-for-change currency, here, is being unwisely invested and foolishly spent. Nonetheless, it is yours to spend. /shrug

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

@Tacenda- From most of your posts, you seem to be anti-tithing and do not think that the church should ask for tithing or expect members to pay it. Your comment above and this quote seem to back up this viewpoint. (if I mis-state your view, I am sorry - just going off of your posts).

I feel good about my tithing because I believe that it allows God's word to be spread amongst the nations and for ordinances to be performed. This is why I pay tithing, to assist my brothers and sisters around the world in hearing the Gospel and receiving their ordinances.

But, Tacenda, I ask you to do a thought experiment with me for a minute. Imagine that God does indeed love all his children and wants them to get his word and ordinances. Assuming that this is the case, how would he do this without tithing. How would he handle things such as:

• Missionary training?
• Handing out Books of Mormon and / or Bibles?
• Having places for his saints to meet after they accept his word (especially in fledgling branches)?
• Would God's church have a website - who would build it?
• Legal expenses for those that sue His church?
• Would God want to have mobile apps for communicating his word amongst his children? Who would build it?
• How would God get the temple ordinances to the people?
• How would God provide adequate training world wide to try to prevent issues like clergy abuse?
• Etc.

I just can't imagine how God could take his word to the world if everything was built 100% on donated time and local donations which would usually barely cover local needs (like they used to do for buildings). How do you see God taking his word to the world without some kind of funding for it and if so, where does this funding come from?

I personally have no qualms giving 10% of my income to the church to be used in spreading God's word. I do not donate my tithing money to be used for humanitarian needs. As Jesus said, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." The work of the church is to do the Lord's work that he did on the earth, not to feed the poor (Christ didn't spend his time feeding the poor - he spent it preaching his word). I donate time and money outside of my tithing for the purpose of feeding and clothing the poor.

I'm not against tithing, but I do believe the way tithing is paid is different than the original lay out of it, but don't want to even go there, been there done that. I paid tithing most of my life, I believe if I use things of the church such as the church building or anything else, I would definitely pay tithing. 

I do feel for couple missionaries that pay large amounts to go on missions, my in-law brothers and sisters have been on a few, such as England and Australia to name a few. I think it'd be nice if they were able to pay the monthly amount that younger missionaries pay. I think the church expects a lot from their members. When they have that slush/rainy day fund that is incomprehensibly large and expect that, I guess it bothers me. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

From wikipedia:

As it's been said previously, there's no need to for the LDS church to open a hospital in a place where the Catholic Church already has one up and running. Donating to the hospital would be more efficient than running a parallel one.

Okay, I just might have to do that! Often when I think of places like you've listed I think of Mother Teresa!

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The manager of the Bishop's Storehouse in Salt Lake City told of getting a call from a Latter-day Saint sister missionary who was serving where the latest disaster to hit the U.S. at the time had happened.  Apparently, a group that didn't want those who got the aid to know where it really came from was relabeling goods sent by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in order to obscure the aid's true source.  ......................

In the past, I heard reports of similar problems with humanitarian aid from the USA to some Asian countries (USAID Agency for International Development).  It was an embarrassment to the national govt to see the USA flag or some such symbol on bags of rice, flour, or whatever.  Had to be repackaged.  Whole shiploads.

That's why some of the humanitarian work of the LDS Church is hidden behind other organizations.  For example, the LDS Church spends millions to help the homeless in downtown SLC, but hardly anyone knows it.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Okay, I just might have to do that! Often when I think of places like you've listed I think of Mother Teresa!

And the Brethren have sometimes quoted Mother Teresa during General Conference.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

... (S)ome of the humanitarian work of the LDS Church is hidden behind other organizations.  For example, the LDS Church spends millions to help the homeless in downtown SLC, but hardly anyone knows it.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its leaders are darned if they do, darned if they don't: If the Church and its leaders don't trumpet their humanitarian efforts, the Church is perceived as an organization with vast resources that doesn't contribute enough toward worthy causes; yet if it does trumpet such efforts, the response is, "Tsk, tsk, tsk!  What happened to not doing one's alms before men?"

As an aside, I know nothing about accounting.  I know that in some cases, volunteer hours are considered in-kind contributions and must be reported (in the case of, e.g., elections). I'm not sure about other volunteer efforts.  How many millions of hours of volunteer work per year do members of the Church of Jesus Christ contribute?  I strongly suspect that if those hours were reported, it would go a long way toward evening the calculation of volunteerism in the Church of Jesus Christ vis-a-vis that of other churches and nonprofit organizations.