Ahab Posted March 9, 2021 Posted March 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: We could fly a bunch of planes over those countries and release a bunch of rainbow colored glitter😁 Some would scream and shout for joy while others ranted about all of that pollution. You can never please everybody at any time.
Islander Posted March 9, 2021 Posted March 9, 2021 On 3/6/2021 at 3:06 PM, Scott Lloyd said: It appears it was Malcolm Muggeridge who said it. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/726614-all-new-news-is-old-news-happening-to-new-people Yes! Thank you.
Popular Post california boy Posted March 9, 2021 Popular Post Posted March 9, 2021 On 3/8/2021 at 4:16 AM, AtlanticMike said: And in my opinion that's the problem. There's one side in this country that is always pedal to the metal on social issues. And when that's your game plan, sometimes you totally pass your destination because your driving to fast. Sometimes you need to take a break and realize what you actually should be grateful for. That's what the map I put up should show you. Is it your opinion that the LGBT community in this country is not still being discriminated against, getting beaten up, raped in some cases, murdered at times? Or has it just reached an acceptable level now and no need to keep pushing pedal to the metal to stop this violence and discrimination? 5
Popular Post smac97 Posted March 9, 2021 Author Popular Post Posted March 9, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, california boy said: Quote And in my opinion that's the problem. There's one side in this country that is always pedal to the metal on social issues. And when that's your game plan, sometimes you totally pass your destination because your driving to fast. Sometimes you need to take a break and realize what you actually should be grateful for. That's what the map I put up should show you. Is it your opinion that the LGBT community in this country is not still being discriminated against, getting beaten up, raped in some cases, murdered at times? Or has it just reached an acceptable level now and no need to keep pushing pedal to the metal to stop this violence and discrimination? I don't think anyone has qualms about working to reduce discrimination against LGBT folks, physical/sexual violence, and so on. To the contrary, I think every decent person opposes such misconduct (the Church certainly does). But Mike's "pedal to the metal" comment deserves some attention. And it's not just a problem for LGBT folks, either. It's a problem for everyone. Treating any and all disagreement with one's position as per se evidence of badness (hate, depravity, lack of sincerity, etc.) is a problem. Adopting an all-or-nothing, my-way-or-the-highway, "either your an ally or your a bigot and a hater"-style attitude is a problem. Imputing horrible motives onto people with whom one disagrees, but whom one barely knows, is a problem. Demanding respect, rather than earning and requesting it, is a problem. Demanding respect from the other side while not showing it for the other side is a problem. Comparing your side's best to the other side's worst, or your side's worst to the other side's best, is a problem. "Cancel culture," shaming, bullying, etc. is a problem, whether as a means of punishment, payback, attempting to silence divergent points of view, etc. I'm not applying these to you, CB. I'm not applying them to any person in particular. I am making generalized observations that apply to both sides of this debate. Thanks, -Smac Edited March 9, 2021 by smac97 5
The Nehor Posted March 9, 2021 Posted March 9, 2021 16 hours ago, Ahab said: Some would scream and shout for joy while others ranted about all of that pollution. You can never please everybody at any time. I would scream and rant about the pollution. Both kinds. Glitter is the herpes of the craft world because it never cleans up or goes away. Then there is the airplane pollution but that is not as bad as glitter. Glitter is evil. 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted March 10, 2021 Popular Post Posted March 10, 2021 8 hours ago, smac97 said: I don't think anyone has qualms about working to reduce discrimination against LGBT folks, physical/sexual violence, and so on. 8 hours ago, smac97 said: Demanding respect, rather than earning and requesting it, is a problem. There are two kinds of respect in play in this dynamic and too often the two forms are conflated to confuse the issue. There is the basic human dignity that should be given to everyone and having to request or earn it is abhorrent. Then there is the kind of respect where you respect their authority and/or thoughts and that has to be earned. A lot of these calls are saying that we will grant you the former kind as soon as you give us the latter. It is not a new concept. The same conflation was in play in the Civil Rights era. Most of the people being "cancelled" are people who lost the second kind of respect and are complaining about it. That kind of respect is not inherent to anyone and it is sad entitlement that makes people think losing it some kind of violation of their basic human dignity. This confusion of forms of respect is often most easily seen as a standard dynamic in dysfunctional relationships between adult children and their parents where the parents insist that the children must defer to and "respect" them while denying the adult child basic human dignity if they are not obeyed. The loss of a forum for public speaking is also routinely overblown: 8 hours ago, smac97 said: Adopting an all-or-nothing, my-way-or-the-highway, "either your an ally or your a bigot and a hater"-style attitude is a problem. "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." The real obstacles on the path to social change are not the out and out bigots who, while they exist, are almost never the majority. It is the complicit reasonable people who kind of sort of agree but with reservations and who will mouth niceties and agree something should be done but only in a reasoned and careful and slow way while hoping nothing actually happens. I saw it most clearly with attempts by others to reform the CPS system and get it funded well enough. Everyone agrees that it is a problem and that if anyone deserves our compassion and even financial support it is kids who are (temporarily or permanently) orphans but while people will state this with fervor very few actually care enough to do anything. 7
smac97 Posted March 10, 2021 Author Posted March 10, 2021 42 minutes ago, The Nehor said: There are two kinds of respect in play in this dynamic and too often the two forms are conflated to confuse the issue. There is the basic human dignity that should be given to everyone and having to request or earn it is abhorrent. I can go along with that. Let's start with a presumption that everyone deserves "basic human dignity." 42 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The loss of a forum for public speaking is also routinely overblown: What about the loss of a job? Reputation? Relationships? 42 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The real obstacles on the path to social change are not the out and out bigots who, while they exist, are almost never the majority. It is the complicit reasonable people who kind of sort of agree but with reservations and who will mouth niceties and agree something should be done but only in a reasoned and careful and slow way while hoping nothing actually happens. "Complicit reasonable people?" What does that mean? 42 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I saw it most clearly with attempts by others to reform the CPS system and get it funded well enough. Everyone agrees that it is a problem and that if anyone deserves our compassion and even financial support it is kids who are (temporarily or permanently) orphans but while people will state this with fervor very few actually care enough to do anything. I'm not sure what you are referencing here. Thanks, -Smac 1
Popular Post The Nehor Posted March 10, 2021 Popular Post Posted March 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: I can go along with that. Let's start with a presumption that everyone deserves "basic human dignity." Okay. 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: What about the loss of a job? Reputation? Relationships? In a nation where "at will" employment is the norm it is clear we are not big on a job being some kind of right. A reputation is not guaranteed to anyone. I have terminated relationships with people whose viewpoints I find abhorrent. Do people deserve relationships now? As to reputation if you want to stake your livelihood and/or self-worth on public acclaim you do so at your own peril. If they honestly believe they are some great figure like a 1st century Christian martyr or Abinadi or Martin Luther King or Martin Luther or some other grand corrective to society they also need to accept that this doesn't automatically lead to a life of respectability and comfort immune to people saying and doing mean things. Deal with it or go play in a different sandbox. The orators of ancient Athens understood the fickleness of the people and would go from acclaim to pariah and back like a yo-yo. They actually knew what they were getting into. 23 minutes ago, smac97 said: "Complicit reasonable people?" What does that mean? People complicit with the status quo while insisting that justice must wait for a more convenient season. See the Martin Luther King quote I used above for a better articulation of the concept. 24 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'm not sure what you are referencing here. Almost no one is anti-child but the reality is that most people aren't pro-child either outside their own sphere of contacts. 6
Scott Lloyd Posted March 12, 2021 Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) On 3/8/2021 at 7:41 AM, HappyJackWagon said: Just to be clear, you're mentioning hmsxual "behavior" that does not break the law of chastity. We're talking about holding hands, kissing etc. So, yes, BYU handled it terribly last year and IMO they didn't seem to learn much as they handled this poorly too. The only problem in understanding their position is the double meaning of the Law of Chastity. There is one version for hetero and a different version for Homo. That's the confusion. Fixing the inconsistency would be the best way to end the confusion. I think the confusion WAS fixed last year with a definitive clarification from the General Authority level that any alteration in the honor code should not be taken to mean that public displays of romantic affection between persons of the same sex, never tolerated on campus or in the Church before, were now acceptable. I agree the matter last year was handled poorly in the early stages. Written direction was ambiguous, false assumptions stemming from wishful thinking were made and allowed to persist, faulty information and analysis were given out by certain of the faculty and staff, and the whole matter was allowed to fester for too long before the clarifying statement was forthcoming. Once it did come forth, it was more painful for some than it might have been had the clarification been issued more promptly. This understandably resulted in hurt feelings and considerable rancor. But now that it has been issued, there is no good reason to dredge it up and thereby reopen old wounds or purvey the false hope that there is any realistic chance the Church will change its position. So if there is to be a day set aside to show love and respect for lgbtq persons, let it be simply that and not devolve into rancor, activism or pressure tactics against the university administration or its sponsoring church. Edited March 13, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1
rongo Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: The Y has been rainbowed-ed again! 🥰 When I was in the MTC, I got a picture of a rainbow stretching from the Provo Temple to the Y.
Tacenda Posted March 19, 2021 Posted March 19, 2021 On 3/17/2021 at 10:19 AM, Meadowchik said: The Y has been rainbowed-ed again! 🥰 When was this? Awesome photo!!
Meadowchik Posted March 19, 2021 Posted March 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, Tacenda said: When was this? Awesome photo!! On the 15th or 16th, if I remember correctly
Scott Lloyd Posted March 20, 2021 Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) On 3/17/2021 at 10:19 AM, Meadowchik said: The Y has been rainbowed-ed again! 🥰 I suspect there is Photoshopping at play here. Which would make it far less remarkable. As in not remarkable at all. Edited March 20, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
Calm Posted March 20, 2021 Posted March 20, 2021 If there is a rainbow, it is not unusual for it to be in front of the mountains down here in Utah Valley, so being in front of the Y doesn’t bother me. But the angle feels off somehow. Though it could be the time of year and the sun being more north than when I usually see them. That it is a complete bow and the darkness above vs below also made me wonder if photoshopped myself.
Meadowchik Posted March 20, 2021 Posted March 20, 2021 5 hours ago, Calm said: If there is a rainbow, it is not unusual for it to be in front of the mountains down here in Utah Valley, so being in front of the Y doesn’t bother me. But the angle feels off somehow. Though it could be the time of year and the sun being more north than when I usually see them. That it is a complete bow and the darkness above vs below also made me wonder if photoshopped myself. I had to compress the file and then crop to meet the file size requirements, but as far as I know it is genuine. I saw the photo two separate ways in my FB timeline, via two public posts. In one, two different people say they saw the rainbow themselves: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1927554397394390&id=100004195440885&anchor_composer=false&ref=content_filter In the earliest, the author gives photo attribution to his friend: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10106508500335129&id=17803073&ref=content_filter By the way, the weather history for March 16th shows sunny/cloudy during the day, which seems consistent with the photo. 1
MrShorty Posted March 20, 2021 Posted March 20, 2021 I took a picture of the same rainbow on the same day with Y mountain in the background from SW Provo (though the Y itself was hidden behind a bunch of trees. It seems possible to me that, from campus, the rainbow may have easily appeared to be between the observer and the Y. 3
Calm Posted March 20, 2021 Posted March 20, 2021 Sounds like the angle is just due to the winter sun. 1
Tacenda Posted March 20, 2021 Posted March 20, 2021 50 minutes ago, MrShorty said: I took a picture of the same rainbow on the same day with Y mountain in the background from SW Provo (though the Y itself was hidden behind a bunch of trees. It seems possible to me that, from campus, the rainbow may have easily appeared to be between the observer and the Y. It's a sign.
Vellichor Posted March 20, 2021 Posted March 20, 2021 Speaking of rainbows, this article seems relevant: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/restoring-the-meaning-of-the-rainbow/ 1
Meadowchik Posted March 21, 2021 Posted March 21, 2021 15 hours ago, Vellichor said: Speaking of rainbows, this article seems relevant: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/restoring-the-meaning-of-the-rainbow/ Thanks. Unfortunately, I think it misses an opportunity with this: Quote All this good news is central to the meaning God gave the rainbow—quite a contrast from the meaning others have given it today, and with quite a different genesis (pardon the pun). It’s true that some see the ancient and modern symbolism as overlapping in complementary ways. We do not. We see these meanings as fundamentally conflicting—with a symbol anciently connected explicitly with God’s covenant, now central to a movement that ultimately, almost inevitably, leaves people estranged from the covenant path. What is more consistent with the prevailing message of Jesus Christ? I would think that among those many possibilities, expressing love and support for those who have been cast aside historically IS one. 3
The Nehor Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 On 3/20/2021 at 12:05 PM, Vellichor said: Speaking of rainbows, this article seems relevant: https://latterdaysaintmag.com/restoring-the-meaning-of-the-rainbow/ A weird take. The rainbow as a symbol of “I promise not to wipe you out again....at least with water” is a poignant symbol of God’s faithfulness. I can accept the story of the rainbow but it is harder for me to see it as some beautiful symbol of that promise because the promise is kind of “meh”. Contrasting it with the real fractures amongst the “Rainbow Coalition” is also weird. The flood the rainbow is referencing is an incredibly stark divide in humanity. I can accept the Flood as necessary but calling it beautiful or the promise to not do it again as deeply reassuring confuses me. In many ways it seems like it is among the least impressive of God’s promises. 1
california boy Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 On 3/20/2021 at 7:39 AM, Tacenda said: It's a sign. From God no less. 🤨
Ahab Posted March 22, 2021 Posted March 22, 2021 On 3/20/2021 at 6:48 AM, MrShorty said: I took a picture of the same rainbow on the same day with Y mountain in the background from SW Provo (though the Y itself was hidden behind a bunch of trees. It seems possible to me that, from campus, the rainbow may have easily appeared to be between the observer and the Y. so from that direction I would say that signified: no more global flood, Y? From the opposite direction it would signify: Y no more global flood? the answer is because fire will be used to cleanse the planet the next time God wants to cleanse the planet
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