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The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent


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Yesterday I met with my one of my non mormon uncles. He is a Christian and attends a few different churches depending on how he feels. I'm trying to get a better understanding of our doctrine so I asked him if he would meet so we could talk doctrine, something I've never done with my non mormon family because it brings up memories of being young and listening to my parents bible bash with my uncles for hours and hours.

     It's going to be an ongoing relationship, he and I are planning to meet every once in a while to talk religion, so yesterday I didnt want to get into discussing the bible and what verses "prove" Christianity true or Mormonism false in his opinion because, well, no one wins in that battle. So I started with him listening to a talk by Elder Holland, The Only True God and Jesus  Christ Whom He Hath Sent. I wanted his opinion on the over all message. 

    I have to say, it was amazing what he picked up on compared to what my mormon ear hears while listening to this talk. I've probably listened to this talk a dozen times since it was given and never even heard what my uncle picked up on. Here's a list of what he found to be "hurtful" as a Christian while listening to Elder Holland profess our Christianity. Here is what Elder Holland said

1. A trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures

2. The trinity is not to be found in the New Testament 

3. That our view of the God Head breaks with post new testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus himself.

4. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that. (Speaking about an embodied God)

5. Then may we live their teachings and become true Christians indeed. (Speaking of our version of the Godhead)

6. Lastly,  something I've never picked up on till yesterday,  he was upset at the fact that the audience laughed when Elder Holland said "we agree with our critics on atleast that point, that such a formulation of divinity is truly incomprehensible" (speaking of the trinity)

     It was eye opening to see how a Christian heard Elder Hollands message compared to what I take  from this talk. My uncle was picking up on what divides us instead of what unites us. In his opinion, his southern Christian opinion, us not accepting the trinity is a huge issue. The talk to him was very divisive and it just widened the gap between he and my mother. 

    Is this just a southern Christian misunderstanding? How do we move forward with other Christian denominations if we view their version of the Godhead as incomprehensible and they view our version of the Godhead as incomprehensible? First, we should stop laughing and joking about what they believe. And lastly, what is a true Christian in your opinion?

  

https://youtu.be/

     

   

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

While I certainly wouldn't be looking to offend those of another faith I see no reason not to call a spade a spade.

Everything Elder Holland said was correct.  I'm not sure that there's a benefit to ignoring the differences.  While there is obviously a benefit to finding common ground I don't for a second see one in trying to downplay the differences.

I agree. I've listened to this talk alot, I love this talk, but to a Christian ear, atleast my uncles, it divides us. To him Elder Holland is insinuating that other denominations are false Christians. His biggest gripe for years, and what he uses to bash my mom with is the fact that in the first vision account God tells Joseph that all creeds are an abomination. 

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It is important to keep good relations with everyone, but most importantly with family. It is helpful to share truth with others. But everything we do with non-member family and friends should be calculated to get them to pick up the Book of Mormon and start to earnestly read it. Arguments about the Trinity and the truly incomprehensible nature of God are contentious and should be avoided.

Avoid sharing General Conference talks as an initial conversion tool, for just the reason you identified. What may inspire one may be off-putting to another.

My opinion as to what constitutes a true Christian is the same as God’s, i.e., whomever He judges to be a true Christian, I agree. (I suspect there are many who we identify as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. But since God looks at the heart . . .)

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15 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

I doubt from your limited exposure that your extended family represent what you might correctly associate with what you have called "southern Christian". What you have observed all your life as well as in your recent meeting probably have a lot more to do with individual temperaments, upbringing, and specific religious influences which other "southern Christians" would find to be foreign

Thank you. And I understand not all Christians think Mormonism is a heathen version of christianity. But some of my earliest memories are going to church, coming home and watching football while eating, then my mom and her brothers spending the next 3 to 4 hours, what I call "bible bashing" and never convincing the other that what they believe is true. Verse after verse after verse after verse after verse, back and forth, it was ridiculous, but I remember it like it was yesterday. I actually grew up believing Christians were some of the most uninformed people walking the planet. Because of my family views about coffee and wine(alcohol), I never really had a close relationship with most of my cousins who were Christian, my mom wouldn't allow it. But, some of my Christian friends had parents who felt the same. One of my junior high friends(Christian), his parents wouldn't let me swim in their pool because I was Mormon. When my mom found out she confronted the lady and almost got thrown in jail because she flipped out on the lady🤣. Also, alot of Christian schools in our area in the 80s and 90s wouldn't allow mormons to attend k-12. So I am glad to see a lot of that hostility has subsided, but we have a long way to go on both sides.  

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2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

It was eye opening to see how a Christian heard Elder Hollands message compared to what I take  from this talk. My uncle was picking up on what divides us instead of what unites us. In his opinion, his southern Christian opinion, us not accepting the trinity is a huge issue. The talk to him was very divisive and it just widened the gap between he and my mother. 

    Is this just a southern Christian misunderstanding? How do we move forward with other Christian denominations if we view their version of the Godhead as incomprehensible and they view our version of the Godhead as incomprehensible? First, we should stop laughing and joking about what they believe. And lastly, what is a true Christian in your opinion?

I think those who are predisposed to be divisive will find reasons to be divisive. There is a distinction between being divisive and being unifying on common grounds while recognizing differences. Humor can be used for either (and neither).

A “true Christian” in my opinion, which is most superficial because it isn’t worth my time judging others, is one who identifies with and tries to follow Christ. I say that acknowledging that there are Christlike people who don’t.

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2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Yesterday I met with my one of my non mormon uncles. He is a Christian and attends a few different churches depending on how he feels. I'm trying to get a better understanding of our doctrine so I asked him if he would meet so we could talk doctrine, something I've never done with my non mormon family because it brings up memories of being young and listening to my parents bible bash with my uncles for hours and hours.

     It's going to be an ongoing relationship, he and I are planning to meet every once in a while to talk religion, so yesterday I didnt want to get into discussing the bible and what verses "prove" Christianity true or Mormonism false in his opinion because, well, no one wins in that battle. So I started with him listening to a talk by Elder Holland, The Only True God and Jesus  Christ Whom He Hath Sent. I wanted his opinion on the over all message. 

    I have to say, it was amazing what he picked up on compared to what my mormon ear hears while listening to this talk. I've probably listened to this talk a dozen times since it was given and never even heard what my uncle picked up on. Here's a list of what he found to be "hurtful" as a Christian while listening to Elder Holland profess our Christianity. Here is what Elder Holland said

1. A trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures

2. The trinity is not to be found in the New Testament 

3. That our view of the God Head breaks with post new testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus himself.

4. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that. (Speaking about an embodied God)

5. Then may we live their teachings and become true Christians indeed. (Speaking of our version of the Godhead)

6. Lastly,  something I've never picked up on till yesterday,  he was upset at the fact that the audience laughed when Elder Holland said "we agree with our critics on atleast that point, that such a formulation of divinity is truly incomprehensible" (speaking of the trinity)

     It was eye opening to see how a Christian heard Elder Hollands message compared to what I take  from this talk. My uncle was picking up on what divides us instead of what unites us. In his opinion, his southern Christian opinion, us not accepting the trinity is a huge issue. The talk to him was very divisive and it just widened the gap between he and my mother. 

    Is this just a southern Christian misunderstanding? How do we move forward with other Christian denominations if we view their version of the Godhead as incomprehensible and they view our version of the Godhead as incomprehensible? First, we should stop laughing and joking about what they believe. And lastly, what is a true Christian in your opinion?

  

https://youtu.be/

     

   

The first thing I would ask him is how he knows the BIBLE is true.

Typically he won't even understand that the bible is a compilation of ancient writings which was finally designated/ruled/created by the Catholic church IN 1546.

Yes it was created from earlier decisions made by the Catholic church, but who is to say that was "correct"?? and the will of God?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_of_Trent

YES we accept that as scripture- BUT OUR decision to accept any scripture is not based on the traditions of men but by TESTIMONY from the Lord Jesus Christ- that WE must receive personally, for ourselves after study and prayer

Typically evangelical Christians simply accept the bible without thinking or praying, in fact they will tell you that one SHOULD NOT be praying about whether or not the bible is the true word of God!  Did you know that??

Once he firmly understands that, that he needs to pray about the bible, that praying about the Book of Mormon is the same thing.   We have prayed about it and received a testimony.

No need for bible bashing!

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2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I agree. I've listened to this talk alot, I love this talk, but to a Christian ear, atleast my uncles, it divides us. To him Elder Holland is insinuating that other denominations are false Christians. His biggest gripe for years, and what he uses to bash my mom with is the fact that in the first vision account God tells Joseph that all creeds are an abomination. 

Given your knowledge of your family background and the content of the talk, why did you choose it to initiate a weekly discussion?

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14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Given your knowledge of your family background and the content of the talk, why did you choose it to initiate a weekly discussion?

Well, I think because he and I already have a difference of opinion we can walk away afterwards and not have any ill feelings toward one another. But right now, me asking questions to my mormon family isn't going to happen without bringing up old memories of my brother in law leaving the church. In my family,  talking to much about Mormonism, deep Mormonism,  will  automatically have you put on the "ignore" list. I cant chance that, our family is extremely tight. 

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40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Typically evangelical Christians simply accept the bible without thinking or praying, in fact they will tell you that one SHOULD NOT be praying about whether or not the bible is the true word of God!  Did you know that??

Seriously, I've never even heard that. I guess I just assumed praying about the bible would be a natural thing to do. I'll ask him that next time I talk to him. In your opinion, why dont they pray about the content of the bible?

Edited by AtlanticMike
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3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Yesterday I met with my one of my non mormon uncles. He is a Christian and attends a few different churches depending on how he feels. I'm trying to get a better understanding of our doctrine so I asked him if he would meet so we could talk doctrine, something I've never done with my non mormon family because it brings up memories of being young and listening to my parents bible bash with my uncles for hours and hours.

     It's going to be an ongoing relationship, he and I are planning to meet every once in a while to talk religion, so yesterday I didnt want to get into discussing the bible and what verses "prove" Christianity true or Mormonism false in his opinion because, well, no one wins in that battle. So I started with him listening to a talk by Elder Holland, The Only True God and Jesus  Christ Whom He Hath Sent. I wanted his opinion on the over all message. 

    I have to say, it was amazing what he picked up on compared to what my mormon ear hears while listening to this talk. I've probably listened to this talk a dozen times since it was given and never even heard what my uncle picked up on. Here's a list of what he found to be "hurtful" as a Christian while listening to Elder Holland profess our Christianity. Here is what Elder Holland said

1. A trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures

2. The trinity is not to be found in the New Testament 

3. That our view of the God Head breaks with post new testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus himself.

4. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that. (Speaking about an embodied God)

5. Then may we live their teachings and become true Christians indeed. (Speaking of our version of the Godhead)

6. Lastly,  something I've never picked up on till yesterday,  he was upset at the fact that the audience laughed when Elder Holland said "we agree with our critics on atleast that point, that such a formulation of divinity is truly incomprehensible" (speaking of the trinity)

     It was eye opening to see how a Christian heard Elder Hollands message compared to what I take  from this talk. My uncle was picking up on what divides us instead of what unites us. In his opinion, his southern Christian opinion, us not accepting the trinity is a huge issue. The talk to him was very divisive and it just widened the gap between he and my mother. 

    Is this just a southern Christian misunderstanding? How do we move forward with other Christian denominations if we view their version of the Godhead as incomprehensible and they view our version of the Godhead as incomprehensible? First, we should stop laughing and joking about what they believe. And lastly, what is a true Christian in your opinion?.................  

First off, Elder Holland was speaking to an LDS audience.  He has spoken to non-LDS audiences, and his message is very different in such cases.  For example, at Oxford University, https://www.ldsdaily.com/church-lds/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-discusses-theology-at-oxford/

Second, Christianity has frequently had movements within it to return to the Primitive Church, which is to say early Christianity, before all the formal doctrinal declarations and confessions of faith were formulated.  This was true of the Puritans in England, who came to the American Colonies specifically so that they could pursue that objective of returning to early Christian fundamentals -- because the Church of England (Anglican Church) was not appreciative of their beliefs and persecuted them.  The Puritans were "restorationists," wanting to restore that primitive Christian Church, and the original teachings of Jesus Christ.  Joseph Smith was by no means the first restorationist.  Indeed, Joseph's contemporary, Alexander Campbell was a restorationist (and Sidney Rigdon was one of Campbell's preachers).

Third, most members of the plethora of denominations in the USA know nothing of Christian history, and they are unlikely to understand anything about theology.  Their membership in a particular denomination is akin to membership in a sports club, and they fiercely identify with their club, no matter what.  This is similarly the case for LDS members.

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14 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Seriously, I've never even heard that. I guess I just assumed praying about the bible would be a natural thing to do. I'll ask him that next time I talk to him. In your opinion, why dont they pray about the content of the bible?

One reason is that they have seen what that sort of thing can lead to in Pentecostalism.  Let the Spirit loose and you are likely to lose control.  Just look what happened to Joseph Smith following the advice in James 1:5.

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18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

First off, Elder Holland was speaking to an LDS audience.  He has spoken to non-LDS audiences, and his message is very different in such cases.  For example, at Oxford University, https://www.ldsdaily.com/church-lds/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-discusses-theology-at-oxford/

Second, Christianity has frequently had movements within it to return to the Primitive Church, which is to say early Christianity, before all the formal doctrinal declarations and confessions of faith were formulated.  This was true of the Puritans in England, who came to the American Colonies specifically so that they could pursue that objective of returning to early Christian fundamentals -- because the Church of England (Anglican Church) was not appreciative of their beliefs and persecuted them.  The Puritans were "restorationists," wanting to restore that primitive Christian Church, and the original teachings of Jesus Christ.  Joseph Smith was by no means the first restorationist.  Indeed, Joseph's contemporary, Alexander Campbell was a restorationist (and Sidney Rigdon was one of Campbell's preachers).

Third, most members of the plethora of denominations in the USA know nothing of Christian history, and they are unlikely to understand anything about theology.  Their membership in a particular denomination is akin to membership in a sports club, and they fiercely identify with their club, no matter what.  This is similarly the case for LDS members.

Years ago there was talk on an lds board I was on about being much better on teaching church history.  I got curious and asked on my non church board how many there were taught the history of either their local or global church in Sunday School or similar classes.  Less than 10% were taught about their church's history and nothing like we are taught in ours. And that was before the push our church has done in recent years. I think the fact that we do teach church history makes people more aware of how much is not taught.

 

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51 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Well, I think because he and I already have a difference of opinion we can walk away afterwards and not have any ill feelings toward one another. But right now, me asking questions to my mormon family isn't going to happen without bringing up old memories of my brother in law leaving the church. In my family,  talking to much about Mormonism, deep Mormonism,  will  automatically have you put on the "ignore" list. I cant chance that, our family is extremely tight. 

The contradiction of being both tight and rejective sounds difficult to navigate.

What have you concluded after this exchange with him, in light of your trying to get a better understanding of our doctrine?

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4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

3. That our view of the God Head breaks with post new testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus himself.

Completely correct- and it is supposed to break with post new testament Christianity- WHY? because post NT Christianity is based on pagan philosophy of Plato and Aristotle!

We don't have an incomprehensible trinity-  our Godhead though makes perfect sense!

In describing how three can be one in love and purpose think of the perfect family- to make it easy picture an "only child" situation.

All are members of the Mike family.   They are all called "Mikes"   ---   "Oh those Mikes!  They are such a wonderful family".    So too with the "God Family"- all are "Gods".

Imagine a PERFECT family where mom and dad are perfectly in tune and of "one mind".    A kid says "But Dad said I could go to the dance" to the mother.

No such thing could happen because Mom and Dad and Kid would be spiritually in tune!   Kid would not ask the question because he already knew what was right.  Dad would not give an answer which opposed Mom or vice versa.

Ever worked with a crew in whatever field- which was acting as "one"?   "Let's clean up the X Family's yard for them!"   You get rakes and weed whackers and show up on time and go to work - working as ONE in purpose and intelligence.   Everybody knows what needs to be done and they do it!

THAT is essentially our concept of Godhead- they are one as a family is one, and they are perfect so no squabbles about how to do the job, etc.

They are one in purpose and love.

The bible says "God is love" yet EV Christians do not believe that literally!   It could be said that WE do!    The Family named GOD are one because they are connected by Love!

They are ONE in love and purpose- which is "Bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"

Just as we are ONE in being all HUMAN!   The "eternal life of man" does not mean ONE man but all of humanity.

None of this "One in Being' stuff is necessary - I have never had a clue what that even means after studying it for 50 years.  It makes no sense!!

"One as a Perfect Family is"- I totally got that in 10 seconds when someone explained it like that to me!   It's just common sense!   How can ANY group be one in purpose?

Think of any baseball team- THEY are one in purpose but of course their purpose is simple- WIN!  :)

 

 

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1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

...our family is extremely tight. 

There you go!

So that is LIKE the Godhead- except they are "infinitely tight"!  ;)

 

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1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Seriously, I've never even heard that. I guess I just assumed praying about the bible would be a natural thing to do. I'll ask him that next time I talk to him. In your opinion, why dont they pray about the content of the bible?

That question goes to the core if it- it is because they do not accept continuing revelation!

God has issued his Word, and it is not to be changed in any way- individuals cannot ask God about religion!  "It's all there in the Bible" they will say.

Yes individuals can pray about where to send their kids to school, and details about their lives but NOT what faith is true.

But it's funny- and here is another contradiction- you will get a preacher- even on TV - who will say  "Accept Jesus-decide to be saved today!" or words to that effect.

Well how does one know one should accept Jesus??   Even for them it has to be a feeling in one's heart!!

So it's ok to ask God if you should accept Jesus and join ONLY THEIR religion!

How does THAT make sense!!!

Our idea of God is that you can ask Him for wisdom (James 1:5, Moroni 10: 4-5 and lotsa other places) of ANY kind including what church to join and HE WILL answer you.

THEN your uncle may say that God directed him to HIS church

What do you say about that?

NOTHING! 

If we claim God can send us revelation about things it is only courteous to acknowledge what they say about their own revelation

But see the confusion there?  IF GOD allows new revelation- then the Book of Mormon could be true- so then you at least need to pray about it, earnestly and with real intent after knowing about it!

AND there is another aspect- God will show you the path that is best for you at the time in your life which is right for you- I believe

So if you are a drunk on skid row- homeless etc- and the Salvation Army brings you in and teaches you about Jesus and puts you on a path to God- and you then pray to ask God to join that religion- would God do that?

In my opinion absolutely yes because that is the most you are ready for at the time!   They are teaching you the word of wisdom essentially mixed with Christianity-great!!

But that's not all to the Plan of Salvation- you have farther to go that our Protestant brothers may not yet be ready for- or have simply not heard about!

They are doing the best that their understanding will express- milk before the meat!

So if they say "Well God told ME that the XYZ church was true!" stop there!  Bear your testimony and let them progress on their own, it might have to be in the spirit world that they learn what they need!   We do the best we can and leave the rest to God!

Contention always comes from Satan- remember that always during these conversations.

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4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Typically evangelical Christians simply accept the bible without thinking or praying, in fact they will tell you that one SHOULD NOT be praying about whether or not the bible is the true word of God!  Did you know that??

I don't recall hearing any non-LDS Christians say that we should not be praying about the truth of the Bible, but I've definitely heard people say that a Christian shouldn't be praying about the truth of the Book of Mormon.  But these arguments typically use a logical fallacy involving circular reasoning.   Most of them include the ridiculous comparison to praying about committing adultery or about keeping the commandments.

Here are a couple of examples that I scoured off the internet (these can be googled, so I'm not going to provide the links to the articles):

Quote

[T]his sort of prayer test is specious since there are some things we don’t need to pray about. For example, everyone can agree we don’t need to pray about committing adultery or murder because Scripture has already revealed biblical commands prohibiting these. By the same token, God has already warned believers about the dangers of a false gospel. Paul states in Galatians 1:8, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” To pray about such things as adultery, murder, or a false gospel is to test God because He has already revealed to us the truth in these matters. So, the more important question regarding the Book of Mormon is whether or not it teaches a false gospel.

Circular reasoning:  i.e. We don't need to pray about things we already know to be true, and since the Book of Mormon is teaching a false gospel we don't need to pray about it. 

Another example, and this one is from the Catholic Answers site:

Quote

Tell the Mormon missionaries: “Look, it is foolish to pray about things you know are not God’s will. It would be wrong of me to pray about whether adultery is right, when the Bible clearly says it is not. Similarly, it would be wrong of me to pray about the Book of Mormon when one can so easily demonstrate that it is not the word of God.”

More circular reasoning coupled with the false assertion that the Bible would "clearly say" that the Book of Mormon is not the word of God.

Apparently there is danger in asking God dumb questions.  (If that's the case then I'm in trouble).  But if there is a list of things that "we don't need to pray about", then maybe the Bible fits into that list in their way of thinking.

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4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Seriously, I've never even heard that. I guess I just assumed praying about the bible would be a natural thing to do. I'll ask him that next time I talk to him. In your opinion, why dont they pray about the content of the bible?

When I've had conversations with other Christians about praying about the bible I've been told that it would be wrong to do so because 1) the heart can't be trusted anyway and 2) it would mean that you doubt the authority of the bible which is a sin.

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2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I don't recall hearing any non-LDS Christians say that we should not be praying about the truth of the Bible, but I've definitely heard people say that a Christian shouldn't be praying about the truth of the Book of Mormon.  But these arguments typically use a logical fallacy involving circular reasoning.   Most of them include the ridiculous comparison to praying about committing adultery or about keeping the commandments.

Here are a couple of examples that I scoured off the internet (these can be googled, so I'm not going to provide the links to the articles):

Circular reasoning:  i.e. We don't need to pray about things we already know to be true, and since the Book of Mormon is teaching a false gospel we don't need to pray about it. 

Another example, and this one is from the Catholic Answers site:

More circular reasoning coupled with the false assertion that the Bible would "clearly say" that the Book of Mormon is not the word of God.

Apparently there is danger in asking God dumb questions.  (If that's the case then I'm in trouble).  But if there is a list of things that "we don't need to pray about", then maybe the Bible fits into that list in their way of thinking.

Whenever I hear such arguments the verse of scripture which says "For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray." comes to my mind.

Not that the people who say such things are evil, but I do believe that it is the evil spirit that is behind anyone's attempts to teach someone not to pray about something, regardless of the topic.

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3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Whenever I hear such arguments the verse of scripture which says "For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray." comes to my mind.

Not that the people who say such things are evil, but I do believe that it is the evil spirit that is behind anyone's attempts to teach someone not to pray about something, regardless of the topic.

Me too, and I almost included that verse in my post (I had it up on my screen ready to copy and paste, but decided to keep my post brief instead).  :)   Thanks for adding that.

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14 hours ago, CV75 said:

The contradiction of being both tight and rejective sounds difficult to navigate.

What have you concluded after this exchange with him, in light of your trying to get a better understanding of our doctrine?

Nothing🤣. I knew what he was going to say. I just wanted to see why he and my mom are so at odds with each other when it comes to religion. 

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14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Completely correct- and it is supposed to break with post new testament Christianity- WHY? because post NT Christianity is based on pagan philosophy of Plato and Aristotle!

Wow, thank you. You make me think outside the box. As far as what I quoted above from you, I know it upsets people that I dont like being called "Christian", but what you wrote above is part of the reason. I rather say, let's say we dont use the word  mormon anymore, let's blaze our own path and say we're SAINTS, followers of christ. Do it with confidence and and I guarantee alot of Christian's who are upset with Christianity would take a look at becoming a saint. 

    To me, when Joseph took the steps to re-establish Gods true gospel on earth he was willing, and he understood , that he was going to upset the apple cart and bring upon himself and his followers alot of heat. If you read quotes from Joseph, Brigham, taylor and others, they didnt speak about christianity in glowing terms. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong,  but I've never cared being seen as just a mormon, or lds, or Latter-Day Saint. The word Christian doesn't do anything for me. That's just me.

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11 hours ago, bluebell said:

When I've had conversations with other Christians about praying about the bible I've been told that it would be wrong to do so because 1) the heart can't be trusted anyway and 2) it would mean that you doubt the authority of the bible which is a sin.

I've never heard this, I'll look in to it, 

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