Sin, Iniquity, Transgression

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I understand what your saying. But  here's how I look at a "sinful nature"

Group #1 non sinners

1. Jesus Christ 

Group #2 sinners

Everyone else (probably around 100 billion sinners have lived on this earth) 

How does that not scream sinful nature. Also, apparently in heaven we had the ability to sin if 1/3 of our brothers and sisters sided with Lucifer. Also, Satan will be bound for a thousand years unable to tempt us during the millennium, if we dont have a sinful nature, why does Satan have to be bound? 

Here's how I understand it:

We have a divine nature we retained from the War in Heaven. Those that lost the war stopped developing their divine nature and retrogressed.

In the fallen world, given the testing environment of the veil and unseen adversaries who recall more than we do, we cultivate a sinful nature (D&C 93:38-39). But can also leverage the divine nature that qualified us to take this test, respond to the light of Christ, and continue to cultivate it.

When Satan is bound, children in the Millennium will no longer have the unseen adversaries who recall more than they do, but they will still have the veil and the challenge to cultivate a fully divine nature in Christ. Thus, faith and obedience are still very much required to progress.

When the Lord comes, Satan is going to be “bound” (since there is no other place to send him or cast him out to – yet, anyway: outer darkness still awaits), simply ending his particular contribution to mortal probation for those born in the Millennium.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

I understand what your saying. But  here's how I look at a "sinful nature"

 

Group #1 non sinners

1. Jesus Christ 

 

Group #2 sinners

Everyone else (probably around 100 billion sinners have lived on this earth) 

 

How does that not scream sinful nature. Also, apparently in heaven we had the ability to sin if 1/3 of our brothers and sisters sided with Lucifer. Also, Satan will be bound for a thousand years unable to tempt us during the millennium, if we dont have a sinful nature, why does Satan have to be bound? 

I’m shocked you are getting pushback on this.

Did no one else have to memorize Mosiah 3:19 in seminary? “For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be forever and ever unless...”?

 What does natural mean? It means existing or caused by nature. Are you all saying this isn’t a teaching in the church anymore!?

 

How do we stop being an enemy to God? By changing our very nature through the atonement of Christ. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[CV75]

42 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m shocked you are getting pushback on this.

Did no one else have to memorize Mosiah 3:19 in seminary? “For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be forever and ever unless...”?

 What does natural mean? It means existing or caused by nature. Are you all saying this isn’t a teaching in the church anymore!?

How do we stop being an enemy to God? By changing our very nature through the atonement of Christ. 

But our fundamental nature is divine, then becomes natural and at odds with God, not because of birth (original sin), but because of choices in a probationary state (per D&C 93:38-39).

Being an enemy / friend or natural / converted falls along a continuum so it can be said we are, in our probationary state, both. But the direction we are going is one or the other; this is why some lost their divine nature in the war in heaven and did not make it here.

[Calm]

I see it as the natural man is both good and sinful, we are in flux. So to say we have a sinful nature is inaccurate, unbalanced.  However, without the ability to repent through the Atonement, the spiritual consequences of sinning would continue to build and eventually we would be so bogged down that we would be unable to move past our sins to do good again (like getting behind in school and never being able to catch up without special help, it gets harder and harder as one gets stuck at one point and never is able to move past it).  Thus the natural man becomes an enemy to God in the sense that if we refuse to place ourselves in God’s hands, we refuse to attempt to change and end up drowning in the consequences of what our sins create in our internal state of shame, rationalization, lack of empathy, fear, hatred, greed, etc. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Calm

[Derl Sanderson]

13 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I know what you mean, but I chose smoking (word of wisdom) because often we use the teachings of the word of wisdom to judge people the first second we meet them. To me the judging of a member or nonmember because their smoking or drinking a cup of coffee is 10x worse than what that person is doing, but most of us would never think to repent about judging. I understand judging isnt a sin. Check out this church video, I think it totally misses the point. https://youtu.be/0RGnEJRkIDA

Scott and smac have made such cogent points and given such good resources, yet you seem dismissive of them and continue to give greater weight to outdated (41-year-old video?), fringe, and frankly bizarre sources in your "research." C'mon in to the 21st (or at least 20th) century, Mike. You might find some sources as encouraging and reliable as the waves off Cape Hatteras on a calm day! 😉

Edited February 11, 2021 by Derl Sanderson

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Derl Sanderson said:

outdated (41-year-old video?)

There is a reason it is listed under “Hard to Find Mormon Videos”.  Was impressed they used a ASL interpreter, though she covered too much of the ‘view’. I wonder if that was a specialized version. 

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Derl Sanderson said:

Scott and smac have made such cogent points and given such good resources, yet you seem dismissive of them and continue to give greater weight to outdated (41-year-old video?), fringe, and frankly bizarre sources in your "research." C'mon in to the 21st (or at least 20th) century, Mike. You might find some sources as encouraging and reliable as the waves off Cape Hatteras on a calm day! 😉

Are you and I reading the same thread? I haven't been dismissive of Scott or Smac. I went back and read all my post on this thread and the first post I thanked everyone on here for reading and possibly leaving a post, told everyone I love learning from them. My second post I told Scott I respectfully disagree.  My third post I actually thanked Scott and Smac for writing me back and then told both of them I learn alot from both of them.  How is that dismissive? Plus in other threads I've thanked both of them numerous times because they write very long thoughtful  post. Again, I actually wrote out my thank yous, instead of just giving them a little purple trophy thingy. How much nicer can I be? Gee whiz man, I think you need to take a xanax.😁

    Plus, I think your looking for a debate I'm not always going to give. Unlike some people (lds watchmen) and a few others, I can admit defeat. I understand most of the time you guys are going to out citation me, why should I be somebody I'm not. I'm not here to win, I'm here to learn, that's why I thank people, so they understand I know the effort they put in to help me out. 

     On a lighter note, I love stories so here's a cool one from  5 years ago about Cape Hatteras since you brought it up. We were actually fishing at the point in Buxton because there were no waves to surf. So while my family fishes in close to shore, if the beach isn't  crowded, I'll paddle a couple baits out around 200 yards or so off the shore to see if I can catch a shark. Well, me and my daughter get on my long board and I start paddling while she's sitting on the back of the board holding two blue fish heads, that's what we use for bait. Once we get past the sandbar she drops one of the baits by accident so I swim down and try to find it so I can paddle it out further. Well, when I come up all I see is this huge pelican attacking my daughter trying to get the blue fish head, so I grab him by one of his feet to get him off of her and he starts attacking me. It was really weird because pelicans are usually nice and not aggressive. Have you ever been to buxton?

 

[poptart]

On 2/9/2021 at 5:40 AM, AtlanticMike said:

I was taught that all of Gods children will be judged equally, and for us, the followers of Gods true church, our judgement starts here on earth through confession to our priesthood leaders, allowing us to repent and wash ourselves free of past sin. But apparently my view of sin might have some hard core christian leanings sprinkled in because a few people on here have tried to explain the mormon view on sin, and I admit, I dont understand it. 

    The way my family views sin is all sins, transgressions and iniquities, fall under the category of sin. That us mortals have a sinful nature while here on earth. The best way I can explain it is, think of everyone of us having a cup, and when we sin, that sin goes into the cup. Obviously the more we sin the more the cup fills up. The restored gospel allows us to repent to the proper authorities, and in turn the sin in our cup is emptied. And since we are all sinners, we start over again knowing eventually we will probably need to repent in the future.

    As far as people who dont follow the restored gospel, I was taught that their sins, iniquities and transgressions, are always in the cup, but taken care of if they choose when they die through a plan in spirit prison called "salvation for the dead." Their punishment will be lessened because they were unknowingly committing the acts of sin while on earth. So, how far off am I ?

     So, if you dont mind I would like opinions on a scenario I'm going to set up to see if my view of sin is out of whack. Ok, there's two people in a room, one is mormon and understands the word of wisdoom and the other is not mormon and has never heard of it. Both choose to smoke a cigarette. Who's sinning? Let's say the mormon is because he knows that smoking is breaking a commandment, what is the other guy committing? And lastly, what if the mormon takes 15 minutes and explains to the other guy the word of wisdom and tells the other guy that it's considered a sin to smoke, now that the other guy knows that God commanded us not to smoke, is he now committing a sin everytime he lights one up? 

    Yes, I know I think to much🤣🤣. Anyways. Thanks in advance if you choose to answer, I love learning and understanding people's opinions. 

    

     

Lutheran Doctrine teaches that sinful nature is with us always.  Thing is, Christs sacrifice wipes all that out.  Point is, you have a sinful nature, nothing you can do will change that.  Christ died for your place in the kingdom, get over it and move on. Good works however are proof of salvation, choosing to live an amoral life is a slap to Christs face.

Catholicism however is different.  Baptism washes away sin, confession/absolution wipes away mortal/venial sins and the Eucharist gives us grace.  Confirmation marks us as Christs on.  With Catholics, confession/absolution wipes it out.  You can make venial sins and be ok, kinda.  Mortal sins?  You had better go to a priest.  Same concept though, wiped out. Now for smoking?  They'd look at you funny most likely, no idea TBH.  Keep in mind, my take on Christianity comes from the trinitarian tradition, while many of us are all for ecumenicalism, we have our own takes on it and in other parts of the world you see the impact.  Now something from my end of the Christian spectrum, social justice.  A lot of folks here are all for judging the poor and marginalized harshly via the prosperity gospel.  I say, what would Jesus say and do?  

[AtlanticMike]

8 hours ago, poptart said:

Now something from my end of the Christian spectrum, social justice.  A lot of folks here are all for judging the poor and marginalized harshly via the prosperity gospel.  I say, what would Jesus say and do?  

Would you mind explaining this⬆️ a little more. Also, thank you for explaining  your view on Lutheran and Catholicism, I need to learn more about other religions.  Alot of my family are Baptist and Presbyterian, I'm sure some of my views are influenced by that.

[poptart]

8 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Would you mind explaining this⬆️ a little more. Also, thank you for explaining  your view on Lutheran and Catholicism, I need to learn more about other religions.  Alot of my family are Baptist and Presbyterian, I'm sure some of my views are influenced by that.

Explain how?  What part are you curious about/want further explanation on?

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Explain how?  What part are you curious about/want further explanation on?

A lot of folks here are all for judging the poor and marginalized harshly via the prosperity gospel. 

[poptart]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

A lot of folks here are all for judging the poor and marginalized harshly via the prosperity gospel. 

Not so much this board, US society in general.  I'll admit it, I have a bias due to how my life has been and how family and myself have been treated.  I'm all for people being left alone but from what i've seen, a lot of US society is very discriminatory and predatory, esp. against people of color, members of the LGBT community, natives and other groups.  Traditionally, it's been the church that stood up for them, here in the states that seems to vary greatly from community to community.  Half of my family are quite racist, homophobic and extremely entitled.  They complain about local Muslim communities encroaching on their white suburbs yet when you ask them why their own Christian communities do nothing, the entitlement comes out.  These are the same people who feel like money should be taken away from poor urban schools and used to build more jails.  Big surprise, they're also fans of the prosperity gospel as well as cherry picking the bible when it suits them.  

Catholic Social Teaching: Called to Charity and Justice - YouTube

I'm a bit racist. And so are you. - YouTube

I wish the mainline denominations got along more, it's seems like it's just the USA where they have to be at each others throats.  Some denominations get along great, others not so much.  They wonder why millenials are just done with them.  I know plenty of people here stateside resent Pope Francis and his ecumenical ways, I notice it's usually the more privileged classes here who resent him.  Amazing thing is it's been the president of the LDS church who has done more than I think anyone here as far as offering an olive branch peace and friendship wise.  

Edited February 11, 2021 by poptart

[Islander]

On 2/9/2021 at 6:02 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Honestly, I'm here to learn and give my opinion. If someone learns something from me that will make me extremely happy. I'm not a citation kind of guy, I've lived this long without worrying to much about the rules why start now😁. I'll give some as I go but I dont rely on "facts🤣" when it comes to religion. Especially in our church, things change constantly. But I will say, I've learned alot from you and smac97. So thanks for caring enough to write me back..

Well, friend, facts are important. In a Church that is worldwide, there are traditions and practices that have absolutely nothing to do with doctrine, even preached from the pulpit, that are never challenged or corrected in public. So, it is important that when you make a statement you attempt, at least, to share where that idea or belief comes from. Opinions have no biding authority and there are as many as there are colors in flowers and no need to agree on them. But a doctrinal position is no-negotiable. 

[AtlanticMike]

10 hours ago, Islander said:

Well, friend, facts are important. In a Church that is worldwide, there are traditions and practices that have absolutely nothing to do with doctrine, even preached from the pulpit, that are never challenged or corrected in public. So, it is important that when you make a statement you attempt, at least, to share where that idea or belief comes from. Opinions have no biding authority and there are as many as there are colors in flowers and no need to agree on them. But a doctrinal position is no-negotiable. 

My point is, if your in a room with a Baptist, a jew, a catholic, a Muslim and obviously you're the mormon, whose "facts" are actually facts? You find comfort in believing certain subjects are facts, I find comfort in thinking outside of the box, allowing myself to be influenced. For example, I've learned alot from this board. Whenever someone has brought up a point that contradicts what I might believe, I write it down and research it. I'm not in my truck where my notebook is right now, but I believe I have about 7 things I have written down to research, I'm still on the first one from 2 months ago, jhlprof made me reconsider what I believed about if there's progression  between kingdoms. Have you allowed yourself to be swayed from your "facts" by being on here? To me that's what progression is all about.

[Bob Crockett]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:08 PM, AtlanticMike said:

A lot of folks here are all for judging the poor and marginalized harshly via the prosperity gospel. 

Really??  I've never seen that, ever, here.

[AtlanticMike]

28 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Really??  I've never seen that, ever, here.

I'm confused. I dont think I said that sir. Where did you get that?

[Bob Crockett]

4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm confused. I dont think I said that sir. Where did you get that?

Don't be confused. You said it.  One thing I admire about the Gospel is that it does not preach prosperity is a means to an end.  My bishops have been humble men, some under employed and poor. 

[JustAnAustralian]

4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm confused. I dont think I said that sir. Where did you get that?

Five posts before that one.

[AtlanticMike]

3 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Don't be confused. You said it.  One thing I admire about the Gospel is that it does not preach prosperity is a means to an end.  My bishops have been humble men, some under employed and poor. 

No your wrong Crockett!! If you go back and look, someone else said it originally, I was answering them back to what I was confused about,  I had never heard of the prosperity gospel. Plus, I new it wasn't me because I've never used the word "via" ever. 

 

[Bob Crockett]

24 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

No your wrong Crockett!! If you go back and look, someone else said it originally, I was answering them back to what I was confused about,  I had never heard of the prosperity gospel. Plus, I new it wasn't me because I've never used the word "via" ever. 

 

Since it was your post just go back to it and delete your words and then I'll be wrong. 

[AtlanticMike]

13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Since it was your post just go back to it and delete your words and then I'll be wrong. 

Nope. I rather leave it up that way you know it's still there. 🤣🤣. Go look at the conversation at Wednesday's at 10:43 pm. Then at Thursday at 7:03 am.  

[Islander]

14 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

My point is, if your in a room with a Baptist, a jew, a catholic, a Muslim and obviously you're the mormon, whose "facts" are actually facts? You find comfort in believing certain subjects are facts, I find comfort in thinking outside of the box, allowing myself to be influenced. For example, I've learned alot from this board. Whenever someone has brought up a point that contradicts what I might believe, I write it down and research it. I'm not in my truck where my notebook is right now, but I believe I have about 7 things I have written down to research, I'm still on the first one from 2 months ago, jhlprof made me reconsider what I believed about if there's progression  between kingdoms. Have you allowed yourself to be swayed from your "facts" by being on here? To me that's what progression is all about.

It is a matter of studying the scriptures, the study materials and the writings of the GA's. There is Gospel of Christ, as it appears in scripture, and the traditions and philosophies of man. Unfortunately, even in our church, there are many that are poorly informed about doctrine and do not know the Gospel. So you hear, even from the pulpit, things that are not correct but nobody corrects them. So, having a solid doctrinal foundation is important. That is where the "facts" lay.

Most of the topics in the forum are just banal and not worth discussing, in my opinion. Many shoot "beyond the mark" and the exchange quickly digresses into sheer speculation and non-sense.

[AtlanticMike]

8 hours ago, Islander said:

It is a matter of studying the scriptures, the study materials and the writings of the GA's. There is Gospel of Christ, as it appears in scripture, and the traditions and philosophies of man. Unfortunately, even in our church, there are many that are poorly informed about doctrine and do not know the Gospel. So you hear, even from the pulpit, things that are not correct but nobody corrects them. So, having a solid doctrinal foundation is important. That is where the "facts" lay.

Most of the topics in the forum are just banal and not worth discussing, in my opinion. Many shoot "beyond the mark" and the exchange quickly digresses into sheer speculation and non-sense.

I understand what your saying, but to me, interpreting the scriptures is a personal endeavor that allows you to draw from the words a meaning that will allow you to grow closer to christ. To me, It almost sounds like your taking the "take it or leave it" approach, is that what your saying? Because I dont see how that can be beneficial to a worldwide church considering that different cultures are most likely going to interpret the written word differently. 

     Again, using my example of a Baptist, a jew, a Muslim, a catholic and you a mormon, all sit down in a room and discuss how to interpret the meaning of the scriptures. Will one of those people be able to convince the others that everyone else is wrong and he absolutely is the one with "the facts"? In my experience, and using my understanding of human nature, they will all walk out believing even more strongly about their own position. What do you think? 

  Plus. It's not a commandment to understand the written word exactly like a prophet, is it? I think that's because all of Gods children are different. And come to think about it, if we were supposed believe in the written word in only one way, this board wouldn't exist, you and I wouldn't be talking right now. We would most likely be breaking a commandment. 

     

[Ahab]

7 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I understand what your saying, but to me, interpreting the scriptures is a personal endeavor that allows you to draw from the words a meaning that will allow you to grow closer to christ. To me, It almost sounds like your taking the "take it or leave it" approach, is that what your saying? Because I dont see how that can be beneficial to a worldwide church considering that different cultures are most likely going to interpret the written word differently. 

To interpret scripture correctly, what we need is for God to actually tell us, through personal revelation/inspiration, how the scriptures should be interpreted/understood.  And by so doing tell us what scripture actually is.

7 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

     Again, using my example of a Baptist, a jew, a Muslim, a catholic and you a mormon, all sit down in a room and discuss how to interpret the meaning of the scriptures. Will one of those people be able to convince the others that everyone else is wrong and he absolutely is the one with "the facts"? In my experience, and using my understanding of human nature, they will all walk out believing even more strongly about their own position. What do you think? 

I think it depends on the intent of the people who are trying to understand/share their understanding of scripture.  If the intent is to understand what God wants them to understand, and they seek to gain God's understanding, 5 people from various backgrounds in different religions could all walk out of that room believing the same truth that all latter-day saints believe.

 

7 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

  Plus. It's not a commandment to understand the written word exactly like a prophet, is it? I think that's because all of Gods children are different. And come to think about it, if we were supposed believe in the written word in only one way, this board wouldn't exist, you and I wouldn't be talking right now. We would most likely be breaking a commandment. 

     

It may not be a commandment, per se, but it should be a goal to understand all things as a prophet of God would understand them, as God gives the understanding.

[JLHPROF]

21 hours ago, Islander said:

It is a matter of studying the scriptures, the study materials and the writings of the GA's. There is Gospel of Christ, as it appears in scripture, and the traditions and philosophies of man. Unfortunately, even in our church, there are many that are poorly informed about doctrine and do not know the Gospel. So you hear, even from the pulpit, things that are not correct but nobody corrects them. So, having a solid doctrinal foundation is important. That is where the "facts" lay.

The problem is everyone thinks they understand scripture and doctrine correctly.  We all do.  We all are convinced our understanding is correct most of the time.  While we're open to correction a lot of times our beliefs are deeply held.
And we all suffer from a good degree of hubris where our doctrinal beliefs are concerned (yes, I definitely include myself).  I agree completely that there are many members who are poorly informed about doctrine.  But I doubt very much we would agree on that doctrine.  In fact, I think on any multi-faceted doctrinal subject you'd have difficulty finding two Elders in the Church who understand it in 100% the same way.

Quote

Most of the topics in the forum are just banal and not worth discussing, in my opinion. Many shoot "beyond the mark" and the exchange quickly digresses into sheer speculation and non-sense.

I don't believe speculation to be harmful, but rather I believe that pondering, reasoning, and hypothesizing on the word are the source of most revelation.
If we stick only to "official current doctrine" we'll never progress any further.  I never expect contradiction, God doesn't change his doctrine.  But I do expect an eternity of further light and knowledge there to be received.

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by JLHPROF