Article Re: Declining Interest in Marriage (by Men)

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

It's plain to me what the problem is. We don't brink enough mild barley drinks, beer.

 

One beer

 

I don't understand this advertisement.  Which beer do I needs to drink more of?

[rodheadlee]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I don't understand this advertisement.  Which beer do I needs to drink more of?

The kind that makes you want to make babies.

[mgy401]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

I dunno.  Problems with the sexual dimension of a marital relationship can and do affect both men and women.  Surely there are plenty of instances of the wife having "unrealistic expectations," with the husband not "put{ting} out," etc.

Again, these concerns are not gender-specific.  There are women who can, but fail to, contribute to the finances of the family.  There are husbands who fail to help around the house.

Still not gender-specific.  A woman can have "a bad temper," and a man can have "irrational outbursts."

Same as above.  Women can have PTSD, and men have have depression.

Women can be overly distracted by trivialities, too.  Gaming.  Gambling.  TV.  You name it.  Nothing gender-specific here.

Now here you might have a point.  There does seem to be a big discrepancy with how we as a society treat and view domestic violence.  Husband-on-wife violence is per se wrong in every respect, but wife-on-husband violence seems to be treated differently.

Violence should be like sexual fidelity: A bright line rule.  For the husband.  For the wife.  Zero sexual contact with a non-spouse.  Zero violence against the spouse.

I dunno.  "She didn't want kids" sounds just as reasonable as "he didn't want kids."

I hope that's not so.

Thanks,

-Smac

I hope you’re right, Smac; and that my experience is not representative of the greater reality.  And to clarify:  I’m not suggesting that only one gender or the other is particularly predisposed towards any of these flaws.  I’m wondering whether one gender is being disproportionately expected to put up with character flaws or selfish behaviors from marital partner.

A successful marriage, of course, is always a compromise for everyone involved; but it rather seems to me like the general cultural trend over the last two decades is that women are being expected to make far fewer marital compromises, whereas men are expected to uncomplainingly accept the same marital compromises they’ve historically made.

Edited December 5, 2020 by mgy401

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/3/2020 at 12:00 PM, smac97 said:

I'm not sure polygamy is the cure for the diminishing respect and reverence society has for the institution of marriage.

The governments of many countries have tried to incentivize people into having more children. When that fails, polygamy or polyamory will be the last option. That and automation w/ AI to replace what jobs humans used to do. The automation might be more likely but robots dont pay taxes and currency debasement only goes so far.

On 12/3/2020 at 12:00 PM, smac97 said:

I guess the OP article is suggesting that, in a way, men are increasingly feeling "liberated" from marriage.  Broadly speaking, this is not a good thing.

Odd that we can't liberate ourselves but women are encouraged to. Perhaps that's not an arrangement rational non-religious men would make. And some think we should blame men for this? 

On 12/3/2020 at 12:00 PM, smac97 said:

I am very happy that women in many parts of the world have increased access to education, employment, affordable and effective birth control, and other means of self-reliance.  I am saddened, however, that these developments have, in some ways, had an adverse effect on marriage and the family.

But apparently you or the article's author or others are not happy with the consequences of the liberation. Seems like saying, as I often do, I love bacon and cake but I'm saddened by the calories I now have added

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

The kind that makes you want to make babies.

It might provoke the desire but I have it on good authority that it takes away the ability.

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/3/2020 at 11:34 AM, katherine the great said:

Huh? So women will continue to resist choosing the number of children they bear, but will embrace polygamy?

Yes.

Women who are single will marry already married men in the hopes of not dying alone.

Women who have fertility challenges will marry already married men in the hopes of raising children with their sister wives.

Women who are in abusive marriages might end those and marry more stable already married men.

Women who were once championed as single mothers (not a fun lifestyle) might appreciate having help from sister wives and a husband.

Women who are liberated can continue being so while their non-liberated sister wives raise the children of the liberated.

And of course women who arent' interested in a legalized form of marriage don't have to participate in it.

On 12/3/2020 at 11:34 AM, katherine the great said:

CFR. From what I've seen, education is the biggest enemy to high birth rates--at least in America. 

I'm not sure what CFR means. I looked it up and still couldn't find it. Sorry

Perhaps it is the type or content of the education that is the problem?

 

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/2/2020 at 10:38 AM, smac97 said:

Nevertheless, I think this factor is, contrary to the author's precursor statement, an indication of immaturity by some men.  Growing up, getting married, and taking on the responsibilities inherent in husbandhood and fatherhood is a mark of maturity.  Avoiding these things to have an endless, responsibility-free adolescence is a mark of immaturity.

This is an excellent article and topic you posted on. 

One of the core problems is: 

If men are acting rationally and not getting married, telling them that's immature is not a rational response and won't persuade them.

Liberated women, we're told, acting against their biology, are ending up sadder and more miserable the more liberated they become.

https://www.google.com/search?q=feminism+make+swomen+misaerba%3Be&oq=feminism+make+swomen+misaerba%3Be&aqs=chrome..69i57.4231j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[rodheadlee]

42 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It might provoke the desire but I have it on good authority that it takes away the ability.

The name of the song is One Beer.

[smac97]

31 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

This is an excellent article and topic you posted on. 

One of the core problems is: 

If men are acting rationally and not getting married, telling them that's immature is not a rational response and won't persuade them.

"If."

Some reasons for not getting married are rational and reasoned (though they can still be, in the end, "wrong").  And some are immature.

Thanks,

-Smac

[katherine the great]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Liberated women, we're told, acting against their biology, are ending up sadder and more miserable the more liberated they become.

https://www.google.com/search?q=feminism+make+swomen+misaerba%3Be&oq=feminism+make+swomen+misaerba%3Be&aqs=chrome..69i57.4231j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Which one if these articles are you trying to link to? This just goes to some search results to opinion pieces. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm not sure what CFR means. I looked it up and still couldn't find it. Sorry

It stands for Call For References.  It's in relation to a board rule where if you make a statement of fact you have to be able to supply references that support the statement if requested, or retract it.

Edited December 5, 2020 by bluebell

[strappinglad]

At the current rate , in 50 years , there will be fewer teachers needed. Some countries , like Japan , are already closing schools. Fewer marriages, fewer kids . 

Note: the fertile will inherit the earth. 

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Note: the fertile will inherit the earth. 

As will those with the advantages of the traditional nuclear family. For all of the hype over how that's outdated and doesn't really apply any more, it makes a huge difference. Any teacher will tell you that you can tell which kids come from a mom/dad family and which don't. When you have performance, behavior, etc. concerns, the contact information is going to have many different last names, none of which are the student's.  

My first year teaching, I had a train wreck of a female student. What a handful she was! Last year, I had a student who was also a mess. He was SpEd, ED (emotionally disturbed), had lots of counseling minutes every week, IEP and a 504, etc. Lo and behold, I looked up his info, just to see, and I see that his mother is that girl. With a flag that she is never to have any contact with the student, whatsoever. I mentioned to him later that I taught his mother my first year teaching, and he said, "She's in prison now." I wasn't surprised at all. 

The point is that not only will the fertile outnumber those who choose not to have kids, the kids who come from "Proclamation on the Family" families (LDS, or not), are going to really stand out in the crowd, and will have lots of advantages that children from blended, single-parent, or grandparent (or other)-raised homes won't. 

[cherryTreez]

5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Yes.

Women who are single will marry already married men in the hopes of not dying alone.

Women who have fertility challenges will marry already married men in the hopes of raising children with their sister wives.

Women who are in abusive marriages might end those and marry more stable already married men.

Women who were once championed as single mothers (not a fun lifestyle) might appreciate having help from sister wives and a husband.

Women who are liberated can continue being so while their non-liberated sister wives raise the children of the liberated.

And of course women who arent' interested in a legalized form of marriage don't have to participate in it.

I'm not sure what CFR means. I looked it up and still couldn't find it. Sorry

Perhaps it is the type or content of the education that is the problem?

 

As a woman who had fertility problems, seeing my husband have kid after kid with other women would be torture. I couldn't do it and be reminded at every turn of my failings. I wouldn't want a thing to do with his kids from another woman. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

As a woman who had fertility problems, seeing my husband have kid after kid with other women would be torture. I couldn't do it and be reminded at every turn of my failings. I wouldn't want a thing to do with his kids from another woman. 

From the little that I've read on the subject, you would be normal.  Meri Brown (of sister wives fame) had fertility problems and being a sister wife to fertile women did not help the situation but made it harder.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

The name of the song is One Beer.

 

[nuclearfuels]

8 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Which one if these articles are you trying to link to? This just goes to some search results to opinion pieces. 

These studies are referenced in the opinion pieces, as evidence the articles' authors cite to support their opinions.

http://ftp.iza.org/dp4200.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/648513?seq=1

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1405977

https://observer.com/2016/05/five-ways-feminism-has-made-women-miserable/

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by nuclearfuels

[cherryTreez]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

From the little that I've read on the subject, you would be normal.  Meri Brown (of sister wives fame) had fertility problems and being a sister wife to fertile women did not help the situation but made it harder.

I watch their show and my heart hurt for her. I can't imagine how painful that must be.  I would never survive something like that. And thankful I never will.

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

These studies are referenced in the opinion pieces, as evidence the articles' authors cite to support their opinions.

http://ftp.iza.org/dp4200.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/648513?seq=1

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1405977

https://observer.com/2016/05/five-ways-feminism-has-made-women-miserable/

 

 

 

And your solution to all this is polygamy?

[BlueDreams]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:38 AM, smac97 said:

These are a big factors for a lot of men, I think, including for members of the Church.  And I think this concern becomes more acute when the Latter-day Saint male looks with open eyes at A) the Church's teachings about the sanctity, beauty, meaning, and eternal significance of marriage and children, and then contrasts such things with B) the prevalence of divorce.  

Generally speaking, I think men, Latter-day Saint or not, do not object the concept of child support, but take issue with the apparent favoritism toward women in child custody and child support matters.  I would be open to discussion as to whether this perception is accurate.

Further, I think that in 2020 men are increasingly resistant to the idea of alimony, which seems like a vestige of a time when women could not find work outside the home.  Now that they can (and are often out-earning men), alimony seems antiquated and unfair.  Again, I am open to discussion as to whether this perception is accurate.

I don’t know if anyone’s responded to this as i’ve not read the thread. But this one from my anectdotal couple’s therapy corner is more perception than reality. I’ve had several divorced or divorcing people in my office. I can’t think of one dad who lost costudy of the kids.....even a couple who I thought maybe should have. To get that to happen you have to have some pretty solid evidence that he’s a risk to his children. If you can’t, then split custody agreements are to be expected. Often the mom will physically have them more, but that’s not mandated, it’s just what the parents decide is best for the kids. But it’s not uncommon to have closer 50/50 splits, particularly if the two live close to each other after the divorce.

Alimony was usually tied to women who hadn’t worked for a long time or had minimal education and would need go back to school in order to have a decent wage. Money is TIGHT for most women after a divorce because they’re most likely to have made career sacrifices in order to raise the kids. The crappier fathers are the ones who don’t recognize that and try to pull off not giving alimony. That’s usually when lawyers get involved. women tend to not like being financially dependent on their ex’s through alimony and agreements are usually made to help them just get on their feet enough to support themselves. Wives who are working in a well paying job or don’t have dependents are far less likely to receive alimony. 
 

with luv,

BD 

[smac97]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I don’t know if anyone’s responded to this as i’ve not read the thread. But this one from my anectdotal couple’s therapy corner is more perception than reality. I’ve had several divorced or divorcing people in my office. I can’t think of one dad who lost costudy of the kids.....even a couple who I thought maybe should have.

I was referring to the courts awarding custody, not to post-divorce alterations to custody due to misconduct.

Quote

To get that to happen you have to have some pretty solid evidence that he’s a risk to his children. If you can’t, then split custody agreements are to be expected. Often the mom will physically have them more, but that’s not mandated, it’s just what the parents decide is best for the kids.

A few thoughts:

First, you seem to be correct that in many (most?) cases parents agree to let mom have custody of the kids.  

Second, I am not a divorce attorney, but my conversations with friends who are confirm the perception that women are overwhelmingly awarded primary or sole custody of the kids.

Third, I don't think we need to rely on anecdotal observations.

Per this 2016 report from the Census Bureau:

Quote

This report focuses on the child support income that custodial parents reported receiving from noncustodial parents living elsewhere and other types of support, such as health insurance and noncash assistance.
...
• An estimated 13.4 million parents lived with 22.1 million children under 21 years of age while the other parent(s) lived somewhere else.
• One of every six custodial parents (17.5 percent) were fathers.

The graph on page 3 of the report shows biannual data from 1993 through 2013.  In all these years "Custodial Mothers" totaled 11,000+, and "Custodial Fathers" totaled 2,000+.

The graph also shows that Custodial Mothers are awarded child support around 60% of the time, though this was trending downward by 2013 (to 53.1%).  Meanwhile, Custodial Fathers were awarded child support 42.3% of the time, trending downward (generally) toward 2013 (to 31.4%).

The graph also shows that Custodial Fathers are granted significantly less child support (in dollars) than Custodial Mothers (an average of $629 less), and on average actually receive less child support (an average of $441 less).

I'm not a numbers guy, so I'm open to correction on these.  But my takeaways are:

• A) Mothers are awarded custody far more often than men.
• B) Custodial Fathers are required to pay more child support than Mothers.
• C) Custodial Fathers are receiving less child support than Mothers.

But the figures never tell the full story, do they?  For example, this 2012 article states:

Quote

Below are a few stats from a Pew Research Center analysis of the National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG) released in June of 2011.

... 
According to the report, a married father spends on average 6.5 hours a week taking part in primary child care activities with his children. The married mother spends on average 12.9 hours. Since two-income households are now the norm, not the exception, the above information indicates that not only are mothers working, but they are also doing twice as much child care as fathers.
...
More startling are the stats on absent fathers, or the amount of time fathers spend with children once the divorce is final. According to the above study, when fathers and children live separately, 22 percent of fathers see their children more than once a week. Twenty-nine percent of fathers see their children one to four times a month. The most disturbing fact though is that 27 percent of fathers have no contact with their children at all.

See also this graphic:

Interesting, but sobering, stuff.

Quote

But it’s not uncommon to have closer 50/50 splits, particularly if the two live close to each other after the divorce.

Yes, joint custody arrangements do seem to be on the rise.

Quote

Alimony was usually tied to women who hadn’t worked for a long time or had minimal education and would need go back to school in order to have a decent wage. Money is TIGHT for most women after a divorce because they’re most likely to have made career sacrifices in order to raise the kids.

This seems to be changing, though, as women are more and more matching and/or surpassing men in education, income, etc.

Quote

The crappier fathers are the ones who don’t recognize that and try to pull off not giving alimony.

Alimony is not related to fatherhood, but to husbandhood.  It's not supposed to be a second source of child support.

Moreover, the turning of tables, where women are paying alimony to men in divorce, is (slowly) happening.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

It’s another breakthrough for women, but probably not one that they’re relishing.

A growing number of women are paying alimony and child support when their marriages break up, according to a 2018 survey of 1,650 lawyers by the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers. Some 54% of the attorneys surveyed have seen an increase in mothers paying child support in the last three years, and 45% noticed an uptick in women paying alimony, AAML found.
...
In 1960, just 11% of households with children under 18 had mothers who were the breadwinner. In 2013, moms were the primary provider in a record 40% of families, a 2013 Pew Research Center report found.

Some 31.4% of single dads who have custody of their kids received spousal support in 2016, and 52.3% of moms did, the parenting blog VeryWell Family reported, citing U.S. Census Bureau figures. The average amount of child support was $5,774 per year, or about $329 a month, but only 68.5% of that money was actually received, according to Census data.

Nevertheless, my understanding is that this is a very small circumstance, numbers-wise.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 6, 2020 by smac97

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I don’t know if anyone’s responded to this as i’ve not read the thread. But this one from my anectdotal couple’s therapy corner is more perception than reality. I’ve had several divorced or divorcing people in my office. I can’t think of one dad who lost costudy of the kids.....even a couple who I thought maybe should have. To get that to happen you have to have some pretty solid evidence that he’s a risk to his children. If you can’t, then split custody agreements are to be expected. Often the mom will physically have them more, but that’s not mandated, it’s just what the parents decide is best for the kids. But it’s not uncommon to have closer 50/50 splits, particularly if the two live close to each other after the divorce.

Alimony was usually tied to women who hadn’t worked for a long time or had minimal education and would need go back to school in order to have a decent wage. Money is TIGHT for most women after a divorce because they’re most likely to have made career sacrifices in order to raise the kids. The crappier fathers are the ones who don’t recognize that and try to pull off not giving alimony. That’s usually when lawyers get involved. women tend to not like being financially dependent on their ex’s through alimony and agreements are usually made to help them just get on their feet enough to support themselves. Wives who are working in a well paying job or don’t have dependents are far less likely to receive alimony. 
 

with luv,

BD 

Backing this up. While court records do say that women more often get custody of the kids in cases where the father seeks joint or even sole custody they get it most of the time. This is more a cultural thing where the mother is basically expected to keep the children so when fathers seek sole custody it may be in more extreme situations where the mother is unfit or unable to care for the children but the “problem” of women getting custody has more to do with dads who do not want it than any deep bias in the court system.

The time I have spent in family court was mostly about neglected kids but even there you see the divide. The mother is expected to be the primary caregiver with dad usually a weekend thing. It is not the judges seeking it either. This is not entirely men choosing to be unattached fathers either. There are weird forces, especially in minority communities, that make being a father very difficult after a divorce but that would be too big a derail even for me.

[The Nehor]

As an explanation to smac’s numbers I would say fathers generally getting less child support is most likely due to some fathers only seeking custody when mom is unable to care for the kids which generally means mom is making little to no money. I don’t think it is a court bias. I think it is self-selecting. I have no idea how to tackle the cultural problem.

 

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Alimony is not related to fatherhood, but to husbandhood.  It's not supposed to be a second source of child support.

 

It can be seen as indirectly related to fatherhood if the woman's lack of earning power is related to childbearing and rearing. I'm in a very happy marriage and my husband is a magnificent person but I have seriously had to train him to not think of our assets as "his" simply because he was the primary wage earner through most of our marriage. Had we not had children, I could have been focusing on advancing my career for 20+ years and I would have brought much more to the table financially. But my job was to be full-time mom/homemaker for many years--an equal partner with a different job. That was our "contract". Had there been a divorce, even though I am more highly educated than he is, I may have needed some alimony until I got my credentials updated enough to reenter the workforce and earn a living wage. 

[smac97]

37 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

It can be seen as indirectly related to fatherhood if the woman's lack of earning power is related to childbearing and rearing.

Agreed.  "Indirectly."

37 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I'm in a very happy marriage and my husband is a magnificent person but I have seriously had to train him to not think of our assets as "his" simply because he was the primary wage earner through most of our marriage. Had we not had children, I could have been focusing on advancing my career for 20+ years and I would have brought much more to the table financially.  But my job was to be full-time mom/homemaker for many years--an equal partner with a different job. That was our "contract". Had there been a divorce, even though I am more highly educated than he is, I may have needed some alimony until I got my credentials updated enough to reenter the workforce and earn a living wage. 

I am in the same circumstance (I have the same sort of "contract" with my wife).

Thanks,

-Smac