Is the Sacrament a Saving Ordinance?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Amulek said:

If you are trying to determine whether or not the sacrament is a saving ordinance, then the question you ought to be asking is, "Can one be saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God without ever having participated in the ordinance of the sacrament?"

I think there may be a variation in defining what is a “saving ordinances”.  I think the Church leaders mostly use it to mean a set of ordinances that provide us with covenants all must accept and have in place before receiving exaltation.  They are not everything we must do before receiving exaltation, even if limited to church related experiences.
 

Other ordinances may be necessary for us to progress in certain ways in mortality just as certain experiences are necessary for certain types of progression, especially if we have an ability to do them.
 

A refusal to do commandments is different than a lack of opportunity to act on them.  You can’t refuse to pay tithing if you never earned anything, but it is also difficult to make the spiritual connections paying tithing consistently in your life will create.

One can continue to progress in life in discipleship without those connections, but acting on a commandment is necessary to receive those connections in the here and now. God has promised though that either because we repent and therefore desire them fully later or because we always desired them, but never got a chance to make them in mortality, he will provide another way, but he has not reveal how at this time imo.
 

With the saving ordinances, he has revealed how and it is through proxy work. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Calm

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I guess we'll have to disagree that it is a fact. That has not been established. That is contradicted by the statement that it is necessary.

Do you believe it has anything to do with retaining a remission of sins? Do I understand correctly that you believe it is optional?

As far as the teachings of the church are concerned, it has been established.  Rain was the first to quote the relevant teaching in this thread.

[Duncan]

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

But we can't always have the Spirit with us unless we partake of the sacrament and renew the covenant.

would we say that to a 6 year or a someone investigating the Church? of course not, we don't believe in continuous revelation but like the scriptures say the Holy Ghost is a constant companion, meaning he'll always be there but not always giving us guidance on minute details  like what to have for lunch or dinner or colour shoelaces to buy. So, we partake of the Sacrament as a reminder of the covenants we have made, help us to repent, not as the means of repentance but showing God we are at least willing, but that isn't the only way way we can have the Holy Ghost in our life. You hear stories about inactives or non members who are urged to do something or help us remember, I think Mosiah 3:19 says the word "enticing" it's up to our agency of course to respond.

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If it is necessary and a commandment to partake of the sacrament in order to retain a remission of our sins after baptism, then how is it not a saving ordinance? 

Because the Church said it isn't.  Weren't you listening?  😉

[Vanguard]

Partaking of the Sacrament cannot be a a saving ordinance in the sense that baptism and temple marriage are. There are simply too many scenarios where folks do not ever partake or only partake a limited number of times. To say that ANYONE who did not partake during this mortality will be denied salvation runs afoul of the gospel as I understand it. That's why we've made 'arrangements' to provide for other ordinances - ordinances that indeed would prevent salvation -  to be completed for those who did not receive them in this mortality.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could you please address this question?

Can we retain a remission of our sins without partaking of the sacrament?

Yes. 

It's an opportunity to restate your commitment  (covenant) to follow Christ.

It is not a required step in repentance.

Now rebaptism was a common practice for the first century of the restoration and was seen as a step in repentance.  Sadly it's mostly banned now.

Edited May 26, 2020 by JLHPROF

[Rain]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes. 

It's an opportunity to restate your commitment  (covenant) to follow Christ.

It is not a required step in repentance.

Yes.

"As we repent and rely on His saving grace, we will be cleansed from sin."

Repentance

"Thanks to … the Atonement of Jesus Christ, full forgiveness is given to the sinner who repents and remains free from sin."

How do I repent?

 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Now rebaptism was a common practice for the first century of the restoration and was seen as a step in repentance.  Sadly it's mostly banned now.

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Yes.

"As we repent and rely on His saving grace, we will be cleansed from sin."

Repentance

"Thanks to … the Atonement of Jesus Christ, full forgiveness is given to the sinner who repents and remains free from sin."

How do I repent?

 

 

Who remains free from sin? Isn't that accomplished through repentance and partaking the sacrament?

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes. 

It's an opportunity to restate your commitment  (covenant) to follow Christ.

It is not a required step in repentance.

Now rebaptism was a common practice for the first century of the restoration and was seen as a step in repentance.  Sadly it's mostly banned now.

That contradicts Elder Bednar's statement that it is a necessary ordinance to retain remission of sins. Is it optional, then?

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Partaking of the Sacrament cannot be a a saving ordinance in the sense that baptism and temple marriage are. There are simply too many scenarios where folks do not ever partake or only partake a limited number of times. To say that ANYONE who did not partake during this mortality will be denied salvation runs afoul of the gospel as I understand it. That's why we've made 'arrangements' to provide for other ordinances - ordinances that indeed would prevent salvation -  to be completed for those who did not receive them in this mortality.

No one has said that anyone who did not partake during mortality will be denied salvation. How are we to interpret Jesus' commandment always to partake of it and Elder Bednar's comment that it is one of the three necessary ordinances that assure we maintain forgiveness of sins?

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Because the Church said it isn't.  Weren't you listening?  😉

Haven't you been following? Elder Bednar said it is necessary. I have provided a rationale including scriptures that indicate it is more than that.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

would we say that to a 6 year or a someone investigating the Church? of course not, we don't believe in continuous revelation but like the scriptures say the Holy Ghost is a constant companion, meaning he'll always be there but not always giving us guidance on minute details  like what to have for lunch or dinner or colour shoelaces to buy. So, we partake of the Sacrament as a reminder of the covenants we have made, help us to repent, not as the means of repentance but showing God we are at least willing, but that isn't the only way way we can have the Holy Ghost in our life. You hear stories about inactives or non members who are urged to do something or help us remember, I think Mosiah 3:19 says the word "enticing" it's up to our agency of course to respond.

Yes, the sacrament is there to help us repent. According to Elder Bednar it is necessary for that progresss. 

The sacrament prayers include the promise of having the Holy Spirit always if f we partake of the sacrament willingly.

Quote

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has^[given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them.

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, JAHS said:

Right it "helps" us retain remission of sins but it is not the vehicle that provides it; baptism is and Jesus is.  It's optional if for some reason it is not available to a member. 

Have you read Elder Bednar's talk I provided? It links sacrament with baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as necessary ordinances.

[JAHS]

28 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you read Elder Bednar's talk I provided? It links sacrament with baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as necessary ordinances.

Yes the sacrament is necessary to help us obtain perfection but he never comes out and says it is a saving ordinance,

"You receive great blessings when you keep the baptismal covenant. As you renew it, the Lord renews the promised remission of your sins. "

This is not referring to the sacrament as actually providing remission of sins, it is saying that it renews the "promised remission of sins" that our baptism provides us.

"The sacrament is the third ordinance necessary to obtain access to the power of godliness. "

To access the "power" of Godliness yes, but not salvation in the celestial kingdom. 

"The act of partaking of the sacrament, in and of itself, does not remit sins."

That's pretty clear.  If you were to ask Elder Bednar if sacrament is a "saving ordinance" he would say the same thing most others here have said and all the other prophets have said, that it is not.
If you have  heard any of them actually say it is a "saving ordinance" as defined in the doctrines of the Church, I would like to know about it. 

[Bernard Gui]

41 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Yes the sacrament is necessary to help us obtain perfection but he never comes out and says it is a saving ordinance,

"You receive great blessings when you keep the baptismal covenant. As you renew it, the Lord renews the promised remission of your sins. "

This is not referring to the sacrament as actually providing remission of sins, it is saying that it renews the "promised remission of sins" that our baptism provides us.

"The sacrament is the third ordinance necessary to obtain access to the power of godliness. "

To access the "power" of Godliness yes, but not salvation in the celestial kingdom. 

"The act of partaking of the sacrament, in and of itself, does not remit sins."

That's pretty clear.  If you were to ask Elder Bednar if sacrament is a "saving ordinance" he would say the same thing most others here have said and all the other prophets have said, that it is not.
If you have  heard any of them actually say it is a "saving ordinance" as defined in the doctrines of the Church, I would like to know about it. 

Thanks for your comments. I will do the requisite research.

I already noted in the OP that the act of taking the sacrament, like the performance of any ordinance does not in and of itself remit sins or guarantee salvation.

In the meantime, let us also consider this from Elder Bednar where he defines what it means to obtain the power of godliness and the relationship between what he calls the three necessary ordinances....he even calls them essential. 
 

“To comprehend more fully the process whereby we may obtain and always retain a remission of our sins, we need first to understand the inseparable relationship among three sacred ordinances that provide access to the powers of heaven: baptism by immersion, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the sacrament...

”All saving ordinances and the ordinance of the sacrament must be authorized by one who holds the requisite priesthood keys.
“The ordinances of salvation and exaltation administered in the Lord’s restored Church are far more than rituals or symbolic performances. Rather, they constitute authorized channels through which the blessings and powers of heaven can flow into our individual lives.

“And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.
“Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.
“And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh.....”

“Ordinances received and honored with integrity are essential to obtaining the power of godliness and all of the blessings made available through the Savior’s Atonement.The ordinances of baptism by immersion, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the sacrament are not isolated and discrete events; rather, they are elements in an interrelated and additive pattern of redemptive progress. Each successive ordinance elevates and enlarges our spiritual purpose, desire, and performance. The Father’s plan, the Savior’s Atonement, and the ordinances of the gospel provide the grace we need to press forward and progress line upon line and precept upon precept toward our eternal destiny.”

Having studied for this thread has caused me to modify my views on the sacrament, which I must admit have been somewhat cavalier in the past. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Things can be necessary in the sense that certain forms of progression will only happen if we do them, but not necessary in that we have to do them immediately. Also there are things necessary if we want to be fully engaged in righteousness, but God allows us to progress over time developing spiritually rather than off/on a Saint imo. 
 

For the first, think of it like a college course of physics. It isn’t necessary to live a happy, successful life, but it is necessary if one wants to be a physicist. And for the second, one deciding to become a physicist, you don’t immediately qualified fully even after being accepted into the program. It takes time and effort developing the knowledge and skills needed. 
 

I think Baptism is acceptance into the program, imo. The sacrament is one of the essential courses provided with the intent to develop useful to other courses skills and perspectives of thinking and by taking it multiple times worthily and with intent to learn and experience it (rather than just because we are told to), our skills and knowledge of the Gospel develop more consistently. However, not taking it doesn’t get us kicked out of the program, it just makes some other courses more difficult. 
 

From my own experience, one of the biggest blessings of the Sacrament is the concrete tie it encourages between me and my community of Saints. It makes it easier to see myself as a part of that community, that I need to be there for myself and others. It fills a hole that I don’t always pay enough attention to and adds motivation to push myself to be more proactively a Saint as opposed to just someone learning about the Gospel. 

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I think we are in agreement. Elder Bednar refers to baptism as the introductory ordinance, followed by the sanctification of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and then the third ordinance, the sacrament, which purpose is to to help maintain the benefits that have been gained....until the power of godliness and all the blessings of the Atonement are obtained. That’s quite a quest. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

Quote

A profound phrase used by King Benjamin in his teachings about the Savior and His Atonement has been a recurring topic of my study and pondering for many years.

In his spiritually stirring farewell sermon to the people he had served and loved, King Benjamin described the importance of knowing the glory of God and tasting of His love, of receiving a remission of sins, of always remembering the greatness of God, and of praying daily and standing steadfastly in the faith.¹ He also promised that by doing these things, “ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins.”²

My message focuses upon the principle of always retaining a remission of our sins. The truth expressed in this phrase can strengthen our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and deepen our discipleship. I pray the Holy Ghost will inspire and edify us as we consider together essential spiritual truths.

Spiritual Rebirth

In mortality we experience physical birth and the opportunity for spiritual rebirth.³ We are admonished by prophets and apostles to awake unto God,⁴ be “born again,”⁵ and become new creatures in Christ⁶ by receiving in our lives the blessings made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The “merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah”⁷ can help us triumph over the self-centered and selfish tendencies of the natural man and become more selfless, benevolent, and saintly. We are exhorted to so live that we can “stand spotless before [the Lord] at the last day.”⁸

The Holy Ghost and Priesthood Ordinances

The Prophet Joseph Smith summarized succinctly the essential role of priesthood ordinances in the gospel of Jesus Christ: “Being born again, comes by the Spirit of God through ordinances.”⁹ This penetrating statement emphasizes the roles of both the Holy Ghost and sacred ordinances in the process of spiritual rebirth.

The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit and bears witness of all truth. In the scriptures, the Holy Ghost is referred to as the Comforter,¹⁰ a teacher,¹¹ and a revelator.¹² Additionally, the Holy Ghost is a sanctifier¹³ who cleanses and burns dross and evil out of human souls as though by fire.

Holy ordinances are central in the Savior’s gospel and in the process of coming unto Him and seeking spiritual rebirth. Ordinances are sacred acts that have spiritual purpose, eternal significance, and are related to God’s laws and statutes.¹⁴ All saving ordinances and the ordinance of the sacrament must be authorized by one who holds the requisite priesthood keys. 

 

Just showing again that in this talk Elder Bednar considers them 2 separate things.

Quote

The ordinances of salvation and exaltation administered in the Lord’s restored Church are far more than rituals or symbolic performances. Rather, they constitute authorized channels through which the blessings and powers of heaven can flow into our individual lives.

“And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

“Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

“And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh.”¹⁵

Ordinances received and honored with integrity are essential to obtaining the power of godliness and all of the blessings made available through the Savior’s Atonement.

Obtaining and Retaining a Remission of Sins through Ordinances

To comprehend more fully the process whereby we may obtain and always retain a remission of our sins, we need first to understand the inseparable relationship among three sacred ordinances that provide access to the powers of heaven: baptism by immersion, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the sacrament.

 

Note again - he says there is a relationship.  Not that all 3 are "saving" ordinances.

Quote

Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins “is the introductory ordinance of the gospel”¹⁶ of Jesus Christ and must be preceded by faith in the Savior and by sincere repentance. This ordinance “is a sign and a commandment which God has set for [His children] to enter into His kingdom.”¹⁷ Baptism is administered in the authority of the Aaronic Priesthood. In the process of coming unto the Savior and spiritual rebirth, baptism provides a necessary initial cleansing of our soul from sin.

 

 So here he introduces the first saving ordinance and it's relationship to repentance.  It is also the "initial" cleansing.  This makes sense to show the relationship between them considering the purpose of repentance.

Quote

The baptismal covenant includes three fundamental commitments: (1) to be willing to take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ, (2) to always remember Him, and (3) to keep His commandments. The promised blessing for honoring this covenant is “that [we] may always have his Spirit to be with [us].”¹⁸ Thus, baptism is the essential preparation to receive the authorized opportunity for the constant companionship of the third member of the Godhead.

.

While he references the sacrament here he tells us the blessing comes from the baptismal covenant.  He does not say it comes from the sacrament.

Quote

“Baptism [by] water … must be followed by baptism of the Spirit in order to be complete.”¹⁹ As the Savior taught Nicodemus, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”²⁰

Three statements by the Prophet Joseph Smith emphasize the vital linkage between the ordinances of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Statement 1: “Baptism is a holy ordinance preparatory to the reception of the Holy Ghost; it is the channel and key by which the Holy Ghost will be administered.”²¹

Statement 2: “You might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man, if not done in view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other half—that is, the baptism of the Holy Ghost.”²²

Statement 3: “The baptism of water, without the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost attending it, is of no use. They are necessarily and inseparably connected.”²³

 

So it is obvious here that 2 saving ordinances are connected.

Quote

The consistent connectedness among the principle of (1)repentance, the ordinances of (2) baptism and (3) receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the glorious blessing of the (result) remission of sins is emphasized repeatedly in the scriptures.

Nephi declared, “For the gate by which ye should enter is (1)repentance and (2) baptism by water; and then cometh a (result) remission of your sins by fire and (3) by the Holy Ghost.”²⁴

The Savior Himself proclaimed, “Now this is the commandment: (1)Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be (2) baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the (3) reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may (result) stand spotless before me at the last day.”

 

Here he goes back and reconnects repentance with baptism and the laying on of hands again and then tells the 3 bring about the remission of sins.  Note he is showing a relationship here, but he does not say repentance is a saving ordinance.

Quote

Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is an ordinance administered in the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In the process of coming unto the Savior and spiritual rebirth, receiving the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost in our lives creates the possibility of an ongoing cleansing of our soul from sin. This joyous blessing is vital because “no unclean thing can dwell with God.”²⁶

As members of the Lord’s restored Church, we are blessed both by our (1) initial cleansing from sin associated with baptism and (2) by the potential for an ongoing cleansing from sin made possible through the companionship and power of the Holy Ghost—even the third member of the Godhead.

 

So now we have the ongoing cleansing from sin. 

Yes, I see "potential" and "possibility".  Wait for the next paragraph.  

Quote

Consider how a farmer depends upon the unchanging pattern of planting and harvesting. Understanding the connection between sowing and reaping is a constant source of purpose and influences all of the decisions and actions a farmer undertakes in all seasons of the year. In like manner, the inseparable connection between the ordinances of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost should impact every aspect of our discipleship in all seasons of our lives.

 

The ongoing cleansing from sin only comes when we continue to sow and reap. (It is only potential or a possibility) until we sow and reap.

Quote

The sacrament is the third ordinance necessary to obtain access to the power of godliness. That we might more fully keep ourselves unspotted from the world, we are commanded to go to the house of prayer and offer up our sacraments upon the Lord’s holy day.²⁷ Please consider that the emblems of the Lord’s body and blood, the bread and the water, are both blessed and sanctified. “O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread [or this water] to the souls of all those who partake [or drink] of it.”²⁸ To sanctify is to make pure and holy. The sacramental emblems are sanctified in remembrance of Christ’s purity, of our total dependence upon His Atonement, and of our responsibility to so honor our ordinances and covenants that we can “stand spotless before [Him] at the last day.”²⁹

The ordinance of the sacrament is a holy and repeated invitation to repent sincerely and to be renewed spiritually.

This is where that shift comes in that I mentioned.  

Again, he does not mention this is a saving ordinance. 

The sacrament is an "invitation" to "repent" so that we can be "renewed spiritually" through the  "ongoing cleansing from sin made possible through the companionship and power of the Holy Ghost" that he talked about above.  

Edit: wow, just realized as I was correcting typos that the Sacrament is Christ knocking at the door. 

Quote

The act of partaking of the sacrament, in and of itself, does not remit sins. But as we prepare conscientiously and participate in this holy ordinance with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then the promise is that we may always have the Spirit of the Lord to be with us. And by the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost as our constant companion, we can always retain a remission of our sins.

We truly are blessed each week by the opportunity to evaluate our lives through the ordinance of the sacrament, to renew our covenants, and to receive this covenant promise.³⁰

The sacred ordinance of the sacrament and the act of participating in it is an invitation to repent and sow (broken heart and contrite spirit) so that we can reap the remission of sins that come through the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's not a saving ordinance because it is through repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost that cleanses us from sin.   

The sacrament helps us keep and  renew (re-establish our relationship) with the Holy Ghost by reminding us that it is through the atonement of Christ that these gifts are given to us.  . 

Quote

Baptized Again

Sometimes Latter-day Saints express the wish that they could be baptized again—and thereby become as clean and worthy as the day on which they received their first saving gospel ordinance. May I respectfully suggest that our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son do not intend for us to experience such a feeling of spiritual renewal, refreshment, and restoration just once in our lives. The blessings of obtaining and always retaining a remission of our sins through gospel ordinances help us understand that baptism is a point of departure in our mortal spiritual journey; it is not a destination we should yearn to revisit over and over again.

The ordinances of baptism by immersion, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the sacrament are not isolated and discrete events; rather, they are elements in an interrelated and additive pattern of redemptive progress. Each successive ordinance elevates and enlarges our spiritual purpose, desire, and performance. The Father’s plan, the Savior’s Atonement, and the ordinances of the gospel provide the grace we need to press forward and progress line upon line and precept upon precept toward our eternal destiny.

Promise and Testimony

We are imperfect human beings striving to live in mortality according to Heavenly Father’s perfect plan of eternal progression. The requirements of His plan are glorious, merciful, and rigorous. We may at times be filled with determination and at other times feel totally inadequate. We may wonder if we spiritually can ever fulfill the commandment to stand spotless before Him at the last day.

With the help of the Lord and through the power of His Spirit to “teach [us] all things,”³¹ indeed we can be blessed to realize our spiritual possibilities. Ordinances invite spiritual purpose and power into our lives as we strive to be born again and become men and women of Christ.³² Our weaknesses can be strengthened, and our limitations can be overcome.

Although none of us can achieve perfection in this life, we can become increasingly worthy and spotless as we are “cleansed by the blood of the Lamb.”³³ I promise and testify we will be blessed with increased faith in the Savior and greater spiritual assurance as we seek to always retain a remission of our sins and, ultimately, to stand spotless before the Lord at the last day. I so witness in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.

 

 How wonderful it is that Heavenly Father and Jesus gave us this path to get back.   What love they have for us.  

Bernard - thank you for asking someone else if he had read the article.  I had read it, but after you asked that I read it again and again and went through this process.   

It's kind of funny because I was thinking that if only we had Elder Bednar here he would just tell us.  My husband independently said the same thing a little later.  I had to laugh because I realized out of all the apostles, Elder Bednar wouldn't do that.  He would ask questions till we had answered things for ourselves through the Spirit.  It has been truly a delight to go through this talk.  I learned things from it. 🙂 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, Rain said:

Just showing again that in this talk Elder Bednar considers them 2 separate things.

Note again - he says there is a relationship.  Not that all 3 are "saving" ordinances.

 So here he introduces the first saving ordinance and it's relationship to repentance.  It is also the "initial" cleansing.  This makes sense to show the relationship between them considering the purpose of repentance.

While he references the sacrament here he tells us the blessing comes from the baptismal covenant.  He does not say it comes from the sacrament.

So it is obvious here that 2 saving ordinances are connected.

Here he goes back and reconnects repentance with baptism and the laying on of hands again and then tells the 3 bring about the remission of sins.  Note he is showing a relationship here, but he does not say repentance is a saving ordinance.

So now we have the ongoing cleansing from sin. 

Yes, I see "potential" and "possibility".  Wait for the next paragraph.  

The ongoing cleansing from sin only comes when we continue to sow and reap. (It is only potential or a possibility) until we sow and reap.

This is where that shift comes in that I mentioned.  

Again, he does not mention this is a saving ordinance. 

The sacrament is an "invitation" to "repent" so that we can be "renewed spiritually" through the  "ongoing cleansing from sin made possible through the companionship and power of the Holy Ghost" that he talked about above.  

Edit: wow, just realized as I was correcting typos that the Sacrament is Christ knocking at the door. 

The sacred ordinance of the sacrament and the act of participating in it is an invitation to repent and sow (broken heart and contrite spirit) so that we can reap the remission of sins that come through the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's not a saving ordinance because it is through repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost that cleanses us from sin.   

The sacrament helps us keep and  renew (re-establish our relationship) with the Holy Ghost by reminding us that it is through the atonement of Christ that these gifts are given to us.  . 

 How wonderful it is that Heavenly Father and Jesus gave us this path to get back.   What love they have for us.  

Bernard - thank you for asking someone else if he had read the article.  I had read it, but after you asked that I read it again and again and went through this process.   

It's kind of funny because I was thinking that if only we had Elder Bednar here he would just tell us.  My husband independently said the same thing a little later.  I had to laugh because I realized out of all the apostles, Elder Bednar wouldn't do that.  He would ask questions till we had answered things for ourselves through the Spirit.  It has been truly a delight to go through this talk.  I learned things from it. 🙂 

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. It’s so nice to read such thoughts. 
This paragraph is what has given me pause to rethink my estimation of the sacrament. It does seem to me that he is including the sacrament with the previous two in the process of salvation, going so far as to call all three essential and necessary to obtain the blessings of the Atonement. 
 

“The sacrament is the third ordinance necessary to obtain access to the power of godliness. That we might more fully keep ourselves unspotted from the world, we are commanded to go to the house of prayer and offer up our sacraments upon the Lord’s holy day. Please consider that the emblems of the Lord’s body and blood, the bread and the water, are both blessed and sanctified. “‘O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread [or this water] to the souls of all those who partake [or drink] of it.’ To sanctify is to make pure and holy. The sacramental emblems are sanctified in remembrance of Christ’s purity, of our total dependence upon His Atonement, and of our responsibility to so honor our ordinances and covenants that we can ‘stand spotless before [Him] at the last day.’”
 

 

 

[Islander]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nevertheless, there is no salvation without the requisite ordinances.

Not true, friend. There are some that, for a variety of reasons, live and die without the ordinance. For them, the Atonement is sufficient. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Islander

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

If you have  heard any of them actually say it is a "saving ordinance" as defined in the doctrines of the Church, I would like to know about it. 

Actually say?...a cursory search yielded a few things that appear to support my position.

Dallin Oaks October 2008

“In his writings on the doctrines of salvation, President Joseph Fielding Smith teaches that we partake of the sacrament as our part of commemorating the Savior’s death and sufferings for the redemption of the world. This ordinance was introduced so that we can renew our covenants to serve Him, to obey Him, and to always remember Him. President Smith adds: “We cannot retain the Spirit of the Lord if we do not consistently comply with this commandment” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:341)....

“How can we have the Spirit of the Lord to guide our choices so that we will remain “unspotted from the world” (D&C 59:9) and on the safe path through mortality? We need to qualify for the cleansing power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We do this by keeping His commandment to come to Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and in that wonderful weekly meeting partake of the emblems of the sacrament and make the covenants that qualify us for the precious promise that we will always have His Spirit to be with us.”

Gospel Topics Sacrament

“In partaking of the sacrament and making these commitments, Church members renew the covenant they made at baptism.

“In return, the Lord renews the promised remission of sin and enables Church members to “always have his Spirit to be with them.”

James Hamula Pacific Area Conference

“Once we are baptized and have received the Holy Ghost, however, we must press on and keep ourselves clean (2 Nephi 31). Yet, our Father knows that we will make mistakes and commit sins after baptism. What can we do then to be made clean again? We must repent again and participate in another ordinance, which promises us sanctification through renewal of the Holy Ghost. This ordinance is the sacrament....

“To the earnest, penitent participant in the sacrament ordinance, that priest promises the return of the Holy Ghost, which is the agent that sanctifies and makes one clean again. That priest makes available to all, who receive the sacrament in the proper spirit, the redeeming power of Jesus Christ. Week after week, this sacred ordinance is offered to us, and if we receive it in the spirit in which it is offered, we are sanctified, or made clean, little by little, grace for grace, until the perfect day. Only by enduring to the end in this manner will we qualify ourselves to stand in the presence of God in the day of resurrection.”

 

It appears that the ordinance of the sacrament is inextricably linked to retaining the remission of sins obtained from baptism by water and the Holy Ghost. I don’t see how one who does not retain forgiveness of sins nor has the Spirit of the Lord can be saved. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Repenting of your sins does not save you it is your faith in Christ that saves you.

 

the sacrament is a way to remember the Covenants you have made.

RULDS?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

Not true, friend. There are some that, for a variety of reasons, live and die without the ordinance. For them, the Atonement is sufficient. 

Those who are not accountable, of course. Those who are accountable, yes it is required. Even then, the sealing ordinances are still performed for all.

[Islander]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Those who are not accountable, of course. Those who are accountable, yes it is required. Even then, the sealing ordinances are still performed for all.

You are talking about exaltation not salvation. 

[Bernard Gui]

24 minutes ago, Islander said:

You are talking about exaltation not salvation. 

Yes. Thank you for clarifying that.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[JamesBYoung]

13 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Which scripture is this?  I'm not aware of any teaching in the scriptures or by the brethren which indicates that the dead participate in any gospel ordinance, prior to the resurrection,  except by proxy.

Show me scripture or teachings that taking the sacrament is a salvation ordinance.  You can't.