American Film Before 1920 and Mormonism

[JamesBYoung]

Visual literature has always interested me, and film and Mormonism do have unique moments.  Here is are two Danites intimidating A Mormon Maid, named Dora.  A polygamous elder, assisted by a new convert to the LDS Church, intends to add Dora to his group of wives.  Public entertainment, like journalism, sensationalizes in order to sell tickets or newspapers or whatever.   The costumes only look like some fanciful KKK robes because of the incredible success of The Birth of a Nation in 1915.   I don't think costuming intended to make a direct connection between Mormonism and the kluckers.  The All-Seeing Eyes appears to intimidate the maid.

Edited May 8, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[Duncan]

So, is there a question?

[JamesBYoung]

Someone just asked me: was there any Mormon members of the KKK in the South then or now.  I have no idea.  Never did I hear of such a connection.

Edited May 9, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[JamesBYoung]

And the remake of Zane Grey's Riders of the Purple Sage with husband wife team of Ed Harris and Amy Madigan was good.

The horsemanship of the riders was exceptional, exploding out of the dry arroyo up through the sage brush into full gallop.

[Garden Girl]

3 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

And the remake of Zane Grey's Riders of the Purple Sage with husband wife team of Ed Harris and Amy Madigan was good.

The horsemanship of the riders was exceptional, exploding out of the dry arroyo up through the sage brush into full gallop.

When I was a small girl, I loved to read... this is before TV... I went in cycles with my reading... Nancy Drew.... dog stories... westerns (Zane Grey was a favorite).  But he seemingly hated the Mormons and his novels usually had some reference to the Mormons in a very critical way... 

GG

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

Visual literature has always interested me, and film and Mormonism do have unique moments.  Here is are two Danites intimidating A Mormon Maid, named Dora.  A polygamous elder, assisted by a new convert to the LDS Church, intends to add Dora to his group of wives.  Public entertainment, like journalism, sensationalizes in order to sell tickets or newspapers or whatever.   The costumes only look like some fanciful KKK robes because of the incredible success of The Birth of a Nation in 1915.   I don't think costuming intended to make a direct connection between Mormonism and the kluckers.  The All-Seeing Eyes appears to intimidate the maid.

In 1884 a mob of costumed men attacked a Mormon church meeting in Cane Creek, TN. Led by a Reverend David Hinson. They were enraged by false rumors of Mormon missionaries kidnapping young women to take back to Utah harems and a fake news story in the Salt Lake Tribune in which a Mormon bishop supposedly called on all the Saints to rise up and kill the gentiles. Two missionaries, two Mormon boys, and Hinson were killed in the fight. The mob hunted down missionaries, threatened the mission president, and burned the homes of the Mormons.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[JamesBYoung]

Here are two fine articles that may modify your thinking.

Both are published in BYU Studies.

I believe that Johnson in his fine book on John P. Hawley,* long time LDS presiding elder in Pine Valley, used the Graham St. John article.

* Johnson's latest book has been nominated Best Book of the Year for the MHA, JWHA, and Richard L. Evans Biography awards for 2020.  His Lyman Wight and Texas colony book was the only award winner in a year where almost all awards were swept by Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling in the Mormon categories.

 

 

Zane Grey in Zion_ An Examination of His Supposed Anti-Mormonism.pdf Zane Grey and James SimpsoBoth n Emmett.pdf

Edited May 9, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[JamesBYoung]

Nothing wrong with condemnation of polygamy.  Good for Grey.  He liked many Mormons, James Simpson Emmett, the great LDS outdoorsman, but simply detested polygamy.

Now stop the caterwauling, please, and read the two BYU Studies articles.

Richard Bushman told me and some others that some "active' LDS who read forty pages of Rough Stone Rolling and threw it to the floor yelling that it was 'anti-Mormon apostate' writing.

Some of the faithful just can't be pleased.

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 5/8/2020 at 7:00 PM, Duncan said:

So, is there a question?

No, just an attempt to attribute Mormons to being like the Klan. Seems clear it is the only purpose of posting this, also as a Southerner, I don’t like the implication that we support the Klan. My guess is, that the thread’s author is seeking to insult a wide variety of people, and has too much time in his hands during “Social Distancing”.  

[USU78]

😈

 

[JamesBYoung]

1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

No, just an attempt to attribute Mormons to being like the Klan. Seems clear it is the only purpose of posting this, also as a Southerner, I don’t like the implication that we support the Klan. My guess is, that the thread’s author is seeking to insult a wide variety of people, and has too much time in his hands during “Social Distancing”.  

Nonsense.  I am talking about Mormonism in film.  The film sensationalizes the era in an attempt to make money.  As a Mormon who lived in the South for thirty years,  I think it is very clear you are far too sensitive.  No one is suggesting Mormons support the Klan then or now.  I think you are trying to insult thinking Mormons.

Are you one of those ultras who threw Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling against the wall after reading forty pages?

Edited May 10, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

52 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

I think you are trying to insult thinking Mormons.

If that is your way of deflection, you go with that. No one here who knows me, would ever think such a thing. As I am a “thinking Mormon”, as 99% of my fellow members are all, “thinking Mormons”. It is true that those who hate us, have always used such, tools and tactics, so why help them out by posting their work? Let the anti-Mormon do what they wish on their websites, and not post them here?

[JamesBYoung]

Only the far right TBMs are deflecting here.  The film was used in the BYU film classes.  You do not speak for all thinking Mormons, nor do you categorize all of them.  This is your opinion only for what it is worth.

Go tell the instructors at BYU that use the film that they are using "such, (sic) tools and tactics..."  Go tell the BYU Studies Quarterly editors they are publishing anti-Mormon literature.

My post is not anti-Mormon at all, but your reply puts a certain group in bad light.

Edited May 10, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

No, just an attempt to attribute Mormons to being like the Klan. Seems clear it is the only purpose of posting this, also as a Southerner, I don’t like the implication that we support the Klan. My guess is, that the thread’s author is seeking to insult a wide variety of people, and has too much time in his hands during “Social Distancing”.  

I remember Dan Peterson saying he used to get together with friends and watch antimormon films. We have had threads in the past if not here then on ZLMB where devout Mormons talked about favorite scenes in anti-Mormon films and books. 

A Study in Scarlet is always my contribution to such discussions.

There are reasons to post this stuff besides trying to make church members look bad.  When something gets this absurd, some enjoy the campiness of it all.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Calm

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said:

Only the far right TBMs are deflecting here.  The film was used in the BYU film classes.

Used in film classes for what purpose?  I trust if we were to accept your invitation to ask the instructors of BYU film classes why the film was used they wouldn’t tell us that use is in any way an endorsement of the film.  Nor would they suggest the film illustrates an even-handed, thoughtful and fair treatment of the Church in cinema.

I understand why, in the context of learning the history of film, students at a Church sponsored university might want to be aware of depictions of the Church in movies, even movies made more than a century ago.  

For those of us who aren’t cinema students, the pursuit seems of little value, especially when you consider the opportunity costs.

 

[JamesBYoung]

let's roll, no one is asking anyone to 'endorse' the film's message: how silly to suggest it.

If you really want to understand this topic, then read the two BYU Quarterly articles listed above.

If you are not interested, then fine and move along.

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Used in film classes for what purpose?  I trust if we were to accept your invitation to ask the instructors of BYU film classes why the film was used they wouldn’t tell us that use is in any way an endorsement of the film.  Nor would they suggest the film illustrates an even-handed, thoughtful and fair treatment of the Church in cinema.

I understand why, in the context of learning the history of film, students at a Church sponsored university might want to be aware of depictions of the Church in movies, even movies made more than a century ago.  

For those of us who aren’t cinema students, the pursuit seems of little value, especially when you consider the opportunity costs.

 

It is a valuable tool imo to understand how Church members were viewed in the past, how many people not only in the states, but worldwide were taught about the Church.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

Nonsense.  I am talking about Mormonism in film.  The film sensationalizes the era in an attempt to make money.  As a Mormon who lived in the South for thirty years,  I think it is very clear you are far too sensitive.  No one is suggesting Mormons support the Klan then or now.  I think you are trying to insult thinking Mormons.

Are you one of those ultras who threw Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling against the wall after reading forty pages?

You are not nearly as clever or subtle as you think you are.

[strappinglad]

 had a chuckle at the Mormon ' twist ' in " Paint Your Wagon " .

[JamesBYoung]

I had forgotten that, strapping lad.  Thanks for the memory.

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

I remember Dan Peterson saying he used to get together with friends and watch antimormon films. We have had threads in the past if not here then on ZLMB where devout Mormons talked about favorite scenes in anti-Mormon films and books. 

A Study in Scarlet is always my contribution to such discussions.

There are reasons to post this stuff besides trying to make church members look bad.  When something gets this absurd, some enjoy the campiness of it all.

Except the “absurdities” resulted in the deaths of 5 people in Tennessee as late as 1884. 

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

let's roll, no one is asking anyone to 'endorse' the film's message: how silly to suggest it.

If you really want to understand this topic, then read the two BYU Quarterly articles listed above.

If you are not interested, then fine and move along.

This was treated quite extensively in Terryl Givens’ 1997 The Viper on the Hearth. Hopefully, it is required reading for the BYU courses.

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-viper-on-the-hearth-9780199933808?cc=us&lang=en&

 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 5/9/2020 at 9:35 PM, JamesBYoung said:

Only the far right TBMs are deflecting here.  The film was used in the BYU film classes.  You do not speak for all thinking Mormons, nor do you categorize all of them.  This is your opinion only for what it is worth.

Go tell the instructors at BYU that use the film that they are using "such, (sic) tools and tactics..."  Go tell the BYU Studies Quarterly editors they are publishing anti-Mormon literature.

My post is not anti-Mormon at all, but your reply puts a certain group in bad light.

So, you are still trying to tag me as an “Unthinking Mormon”, or are you implying I am just uneducated, or a “far right, unthinking Mormon” (whatever that means). All of this to support your decision to post inflammatory anti-Mormon propaganda, on a website designed to defend our Faith. This is not BYU, nor is it a BYU site, nor is my duty to tell BYU anything. But had I seen it, and subsequent posts about the South and the Klan by you, I would have objected to whomever would listen, including BYU Administration. You can of course continue to try and label me in as many ways that you can come up with, but my opinion remains the same, “anti-Mormon imaginary, or anti-Mormon  writings don’t belong here. We can and have discussed their ways, or tactics very, very often here, without posting their films, papers, or pamphlets, with me often helping lead the charge. Also, what “group” did I “put in a bad light”? Also the rep points I received, does that mean they are, “far right and unthinking” as well? Whatever, “far right” means on a website devoted to defending our Faith? Maybe you could just realize that posting this, was not a greatest idea, of your other postings. I support your right to do so, but also understand that the opinions of others is also a right, not a “far-right”, just a “right”. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

23 hours ago, strappinglad said:

 had a chuckle at the Mormon ' twist ' in " Paint Your Wagon " .

That was a great movie. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 5/8/2020 at 7:13 PM, JamesBYoung said:

Someone just asked me: was there any Mormon members of the KKK in the South then or now.  I have no idea.  Never did I hear of such a connection.

So why bring it up? Duncan just posted, BTW the first post to your thread, “So, is there a question”,? To that your reply was to bring up the Klan and the South. So again my question, “So why bring it up“? It was an odd reply, don’t you think? BTW, no true Christian, or Latter-day Saint was ever a member of the Klan, no matter what they may have called themselves.,

Edited May 11, 2020 by Bill “Papa” Lee