Temples in the Middle East (Dubai) and China (Shanghai)

[pogi]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I pulled up the info on the church in the country. One stake with five wards and a branch.

Just over 1,600 members and I am guessing most of them are westerners.

And Filipinos.  I can’t tell you how many Filipino dads work abroad in Dubai and send money home.  I have several missionary companions working over there now, and every ward I was in had several members over there.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Oh yeah, my mate loves to talk doctrine. He just doesn't believe any of it. Yet.

Having lived in a predominantly Muslim nation, I can assure you that there is no end of common ground to build on. Adam as the first prophet. Jesus as premortal. The Second Coming. The purposes of fasting. A literal, physical resurrection. Eternal family units. And so on. You should watch the Haj some year:

You might enjoy this image:

Thank you for those! 

Sacred garment signifying initiation are common outside of Christianity. For Muslims upon doing the hajj, as you point out, or for Sikhs (it's one of the five responsibilities of being a Sikh).

I had an elderly sister from Puerto Rico who came in to renew her recommend. She was new to the ward, and when I asked the question about the garment and we reviewed the statement on the garment, her eyes sparkled, and she said that all her life she wanted to be a nun. She happily joined the Church with a strong testimony, but felt a sense of loss about never being able to be a nun. When she received her own endowment, she burst into tears when she received her garment. Nuns wear something akin to that, she said, although it is not common knowledge, and her sadness and sense of loss was gone at that point. "I didn't know that," I told her. Her eyes sparkled again, and she said, "Oh, yes, they do." She and her husband are temple workers. 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Very interesting development . I did notice the considerable restrictions on the Shanghai building. 

Pres Nelson has a lot of pull with the PRC.  I thought he was about to cry when he announced that temple.  Did you see him hesitate and nearly choke up?  Hit me hard too.

[Robert F. Smith]

40 minutes ago, rongo said:

...........................

Sacred garment signifying initiation are common outside of Christianity. For Muslims upon doing the hajj, as you point out,.....................................................

During the Hajj (next time they have one: had to cancel this year), they wear white robes over one shoulder, and white shoes.  They have a standing prayer in which they raise both arm to the heavens.

[halconero]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Deseret News:

"A modest multipurpose meeting place."  This sounds like there will be a chapel used for weekly services, and that part of the facility will be dedicated as a temple.

Also, I wonder if the temple in Shanghai will be temporary.  It will be a building that will be dedicated for the duration of the renovation of the Hong Kong Temple, then decommissioned.

Thanks,

-Smac

My guess is that it will be something akin to the Manhattan or Hong Kong temples, which are built on, or have non-temple facilities attached.

Manhatten

"The original building...still houses a church public affairs office on the second floor and a chapel, cultural hall, baptismal font, and classrooms on the third floor."

Hong Kong

"The six-story building is designed to house not only the temple, but also a chapel, mission offices, and living quarters for the temple president and several missionaries."

Given the above precedents, it seems reasonable that the Church may include things like a quiet government affairs office, a chapel for local (non-expat) saints, etc.

Agreed with the others here. I don't see the Church using this as a temporary spot. Given some personal anecdotes I know about the Chinese saints and the local non-expat Church in China, it is more likely that the government wants to keep this temple a generally quiet affair, under the watchful supervision (not control) of Beijing, etc. I would not be surprised if its location is not advertised online, and the dedicatory service is kept rather small and quiet.

[halconero]

The context of the Dubai is interesting. To put a slight damper on the "invitation" part, it's part of an aggressive campaign by the UAE to transition the country's economy away from oil and towards long-term finance and shipping capital of the Middle East, sorta like a desert Singapore. Part of this involves the expansion of some civil liberties, particularly for foreigners. It's easier to attract non-petrol capital and investment if others can come and worship whatever they may from around the world. With regards to other religions, this has expressed itself in Pope Francis' visit to the country last year, and the invitation to the Catholic Church to build an expansive Cathedral there. The UAE ambassador to the US wrote a nice op-ed about it in Politico talking about how their invitation to the Pope was expressly about indicating the need for pluralism and tolerance in the Middle East.

Now, despite that damper, this should not diminish the miracle that will be the UAE temple, the first on the Arabian Peninsula. It's an extremely positive move, and very relevant for the work in places like Kuwait, the KRG in Northern Iraq, Pakistan, etc. If Luke 16 has anything to say about it, the Lord has no problem with members making "friend with mammom" for the purposes of expanding the work. The Pope can come too.

[strappinglad]

I think there will have to be protocols arranged because I am sure the Chinese Gov't is one of several in the world that cannot be refused access at anytime . 

[Scott Lloyd]

17 hours ago, Duncan said:

The Freiberg Germany Temple was that way. The Church had to guarantee Eastern Bloc countries' members would return from Bern? Temple and all this Visa gunk, so some official from East Germany said why not just build a Temple here, make it easier. They did just that and it was dedicated in 1985, 4 years before the wall fell, as we recall

Yes, I recall that now. I don’t think the official realized that what he was suggesting was the very thing the Church would have wanted anyway. 
 

As I recall, after the Communists fell from power, that official was put on trial for atrocities committed while he was in office. I think he died of ill health before the people could imprison or execute him. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was waiting for it and then giggled when I realized there was no need.

Me too. 

[Danzo]

There was some success with muslims on my mission in Italy in the 90s.  First time I heard an ordinance done in Arabic.

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I want to hear more about the temple in Dubai being put there “at their invitation.” How often does it happen that a national government invites the Church to come build a temple?

I can only think of one. East Germany 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, halconero said:

..........................Given the above precedents, it seems reasonable that the Church may include things like a quiet government affairs office, a chapel for local (non-expat) saints, etc.

Agreed with the others here. I don't see the Church using this as a temporary spot. Given some personal anecdotes I know about the Chinese saints and the local non-expat Church in China, it is more likely that the government wants to keep this temple a generally quiet affair, under the watchful supervision (not control) of Beijing, etc. I would not be surprised if its location is not advertised online, and the dedicatory service is kept rather small and quiet.

Of course.  It is only for Chinese citizens.  It was mentioned that it will not accept tourists.  Makes sense to me.

[Anijen]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Nice that the prophet did not have to remind a live congregation to refrain from hooting and hollering this time. 

I didn't hear a single protestor this time.   

I am not yet ready for the Second Coming, but want it now (spoiled kid voice).

[Duncan]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, I recall that now. I don’t think the official realized that what he was suggesting was the very thing the Church would have wanted anyway. 
 

As I recall, after the Communists fell from power, that official was put on trial for atrocious committed while he was in office. I think he died of ill health before the people could imprison or execute him. 

yeesh!!! i'm sure now in Heaven he's allright!

[longview]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, I recall that now. I don’t think the official realized that what he was suggesting was the very thing the Church would have wanted anyway. 
As I recall, after the Communists fell from power, that official was put on trial for atrocious committed while he was in office. I think he died of ill health before the people could imprison or execute him. 

I am going to be a "busybody" and put on my grammar nazi hat.  I am sure you intended to say "atrocities" (see bolded, underlined above).

[rongo]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, I recall that now. I don’t think the official realized that what he was suggesting was the very thing the Church would have wanted anyway. 
 

As I recall, after the Communists fell from power, that official was put on trial for atrocious committed while he was in office. I think he died of ill health before the people could imprison or execute him. 

"That official" was Erich Honecker himself (the dictator). He is the one who floored President Monson by suggesting that they just build their own temple in East Germany. No materials could be imported for it, so it had to be small and modest. They didn't want people going to Switzerland, never to return, despite the Church's insistence that this wouldn't happen (and ruin everything for those left behind).

My favorite area on my mission was in Halberstadt in Sachsen-Anhalt (former DDR). This was in 1995, so it was six years nach der Wende. It was neat to hear stories from members and non-members about what it was like when the borders were opened. What led to it were peaceful protests that began in 1989, starting at the Nikolaikirche (St. Nicholas') in Leipzig. Monday night "prayers for world peace" had been going on there since 1981, but inexplicably, in 1989 throngs started gathering there, and this spread to other churches until there were hundreds of thousands at churches and in the streets, singing and lighting candles. The regime was uneasy because of Tiannaman Square, which had happened in April. Are we to use strong arm methods? Just let it be? What do we do? Momentum is building. Then, Honecker shocked the world by having them open the border crossing between East and West Berlin, and the genie wasn't going to be put back in the bottle. The rest of the border crossings were opened over the next months. 

I firmly believe that the temple in 1985 had a big impact on the events of 1989, and I believe that the temples in Hong Kong and Shanghai and in Dubai will similarly be beachheads in opening up areas for the Church. I also remember Elder Wirthlin telling us in a mission conference in 1994 that John the Revelator had played a personal role in opening up Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union for the gospel and in the collapse of Communist regimes (I've always wanted more details on that). At any rate, the mysterious instant snowballing effect of the building protests that spilled over into other areas is interesting. The "prayers for peace" had been happening since 1981. What was the spark that lit the keg? 

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, rongo said:

"That official" was Erich Honecker himself (the dictator). He is the one who floored President Monson by suggesting that they just build their own temple in East Germany. No materials could be imported for it, so it had to be small and modest. They didn't want people going to Switzerland, never to return, despite the Church's insistence that this wouldn't happen (and ruin everything for those left behind).

My favorite area on my mission was in Halberstadt in Sachsen-Anhalt (former DDR). This was in 1995, so it was six years nach der Wende. It was neat to hear stories from members and non-members about what it was like when the borders were opened. What led to it were peaceful protests that began in 1989, starting at the Nikolaikirche (St. Nicholas') in Leipzig. Monday night "prayers for world peace" had been going on there since 1981, but inexplicably, in 1989 throngs started gathering there, and this spread to other churches until there were hundreds of thousands at churches and in the streets, singing and lighting candles. The regime was uneasy because of Tiannaman Square, which had happened in April. Are we to use strong arm methods? Just let it be? What do we do? Momentum is building. Then, Honecker shocked the world by having them open the border crossing between East and West Berlin, and the genie wasn't going to be put back in the bottle. The rest of the border crossings were opened over the next months. 

I firmly believe that the temple in 1985 had a big impact on the events of 1989, and I believe that the temples in Hong Kong and Shanghai and in Dubai will similarly be beachheads in opening up areas for the Church. I also remember Elder Wirthlin telling us in a mission conference in 1994 that John the Revelator had played a personal role in opening up Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union for the gospel and in the collapse of Communist regimes (I've always wanted more details on that). At any rate, the mysterious instant snowballing effect of the building protests that spilled over into other areas is interesting. The "prayers for peace" had been happening since 1981. What was the spark that lit the keg? 

Yeah, Honecker is the guy I remember. I couldn’t think of the name. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, longview said:

I am going to be a "busybody" and put on my grammar nazi hat.  I am sure you intended to say "atrocities" (see bolded, underlined above).

I did indeed. It’s the darned auto-correct that screwed things up for me again. I just now noticed it, but it was before I saw your post. 

[Duncan]

55 minutes ago, rongo said:

"That official" was Erich Honecker himself (the dictator). He is the one who floored President Monson by suggesting that they just build their own temple in East Germany. No materials could be imported for it, so it had to be small and modest. They didn't want people going to Switzerland, never to return, despite the Church's insistence that this wouldn't happen (and ruin everything for those left behind).

My favorite area on my mission was in Halberstadt in Sachsen-Anhalt (former DDR). This was in 1995, so it was six years nach der Wende. It was neat to hear stories from members and non-members about what it was like when the borders were opened. What led to it were peaceful protests that began in 1989, starting at the Nikolaikirche (St. Nicholas') in Leipzig. Monday night "prayers for world peace" had been going on there since 1981, but inexplicably, in 1989 throngs started gathering there, and this spread to other churches until there were hundreds of thousands at churches and in the streets, singing and lighting candles. The regime was uneasy because of Tiannaman Square, which had happened in April. Are we to use strong arm methods? Just let it be? What do we do? Momentum is building. Then, Honecker shocked the world by having them open the border crossing between East and West Berlin, and the genie wasn't going to be put back in the bottle. The rest of the border crossings were opened over the next months. 

I firmly believe that the temple in 1985 had a big impact on the events of 1989, and I believe that the temples in Hong Kong and Shanghai and in Dubai will similarly be beachheads in opening up areas for the Church. I also remember Elder Wirthlin telling us in a mission conference in 1994 that John the Revelator had played a personal role in opening up Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union for the gospel and in the collapse of Communist regimes (I've always wanted more details on that). At any rate, the mysterious instant snowballing effect of the building protests that spilled over into other areas is interesting. The "prayers for peace" had been happening since 1981. What was the spark that lit the keg? 

I had heard in '98 the same thing about John the Revelator and the 3 Nephites from Elder Madsen of the 70

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

I had heard in '98 the same thing about John the Revelator and the 3 Nephites from Elder Madsen of the 70

They don't talk about things like that any more, almost as if there is a concerted effort not to say something that people will find to be weird.  

It doesn't seem that long ago to us, but that was upwards of thirty years ago. 

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

They don't talk about things like that any more, almost as if there is a concerted effort not to say something that people will find to be weird.  

It doesn't seem that long ago to us, but that was upwards of thirty years ago. 

it's weird to think I have had some missionaries in my mission die, already-not that I killed them mind you but through other ways they are deceased!