MustardSeed Posted April 2, 2020 Author Posted April 2, 2020 52 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: OK- why not? Why couldn't it be blessed over the phone, or video? Serious question. If Pres. Nelson stood up in conference and told everyone watching from home to prepare bread and water, and then he blessed it for the entire church from the pulpit, would that be inappropriate? I don't see why it would be. It's blessing the emblems. Why would a person have to be in direct contact with those emblems. It's not like laying hands when the hands must be touching the person receiving the blessing. I'm serious about this. I know it would be a massive shift from how we've thought about the sacrament, but I don't see why it couldn't or shouldn't be done. I think it's just a matter of the proper authority giving the go ahead. I don't see why God wouldn't accept it. In the era of a pandemic it would seem best not to have someone else touching the bread or breathing/speaking over bread and water that is going to be consumed. Frankly I agree. When sacraments were established no one could have fathomed modern tech.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: OK- why not? Why couldn't it be blessed over the phone, or video? Serious question. If Pres. Nelson stood up in conference and told everyone watching from home to prepare bread and water, and then he blessed it for the entire church from the pulpit, would that be inappropriate? I don't see why it would be. It's blessing the emblems. Why would a person have to be in direct contact with those emblems. It's not like laying hands when the hands must be touching the person receiving the blessing. I'm serious about this. I know it would be a massive shift from how we've thought about the sacrament, but I don't see why it couldn't or shouldn't be done. I think it's just a matter of the proper authority giving the go ahead. I don't see why God wouldn't accept it. In the era of a pandemic it would seem best not to have someone else touching the bread or breathing/speaking over bread and water that is going to be consumed. I think I’ll save myself the tedium of thinking about it and leave it up to those whose divine calling is to determine such things. It doesn’t even interest me as a mental exercise. 1
rongo Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 8 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: OK- why not? Why couldn't it be blessed over the phone, or video? Serious question. If Pres. Nelson stood up in conference and told everyone watching from home to prepare bread and water, and then he blessed it for the entire church from the pulpit, would that be inappropriate? I don't see why it would be. It's blessing the emblems. Why would a person have to be in direct contact with those emblems. It's not like laying hands when the hands must be touching the person receiving the blessing. I'm serious about this. I know it would be a massive shift from how we've thought about the sacrament, but I don't see why it couldn't or shouldn't be done. I think it's just a matter of the proper authority giving the go ahead. I don't see why God wouldn't accept it. While there is acceptance and enthusiasm for changes like this (even in this thread), I think that such changes would be disturbing and unsettling for most Mormons. Richard Bushman quoted the philosopher Hume in Rough Stone Rolling about the power of ritual (as part of a discussion about high church vs. low church approaches), and Mormonism is definitely on the traditional/conservative end of the spectrum as far as ordinances and rituals. In my view, this isn't just because it's the default setting for most; there is actual importance and significance in both the literal and the physical nature of our ordinances --- and this goes beyond mere preferences. LDS ordinances are physical reenactments of original ordinances that physically symbolize key things. The Hume quote referred to above is on to something, I think --- there is a power that cements things in the heart and soul when there are physical ordinances as opposed to "symbolic only" or alegorical. Sure, President Nelson could hypothetically bless it from the pulpit and instruct us to break and pass our own. Compare the impact of that to when it is performed physically right in front of us --- in fact, when we are participants there in the ordinance. We could go further and get carried away --- he could also do it once applying it in perpetuity, so the prayer would never need to be said again. Anything could happen, let the imagination run wild. For that matter, why is physical laying on of hands necessary? Couldn't President Nelson simply say that a simple prayer symbolically takes its place? Why not? Why not make all of our ordinances simply a prayer that symbolizes and stands in for what used to be regarded as physical? Some changes along these lines have been made in temple ordinances, and I think we're the poorer for it. I think there is a line, though, a tipping point, where it would disturb a critical mass of members. I think virtualizing the sacrament or eliminating temple garments would be two examples of changes that would not be well-received by most members. I don't think absolutely anything goes as long as it's the prophet making the change. 2
mfbukowski Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) On 4/1/2020 at 6:27 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: This is precisely what I'll be doing for a family in our ward this Sunday. I cleared it with our bishop and arranged it with the family. They'll set up a tray table outside their back security (screen) door. I'll show up to bless the emblems, cover them again, and leave. Then the son will bring everything in. Easy. Hmmmm. Breaking of the bread is part of the ordinance isn't it? Gloves? Oh and one more- do you have all the stupid hoarding of toilet paper and bottled water where you live? Edited April 3, 2020 by mfbukowski
Hamba Tuhan Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Breaking of the bread is part of the ordinance isn't it? I'll be breaking the bread. Quote Oh and one more- do you have all the stupid hoarding of toilet paper and bottled water where you live? I haven't seen any stockpiling of water, but yes, people have been hoarding toilet rolls. I don't get it. As long as there's water in the tap, toilet paper isn't even necessary. 1
rongo Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I haven't seen any stockpiling of water, but yes, people have been hoarding toilet rolls. I don't get it. As long as there's water in the tap, toilet paper isn't even necessary. It's fear and panic, often subtle and subconscious. As people continue to see empty shelves, they subconsciously think, "What if? . . ." and buy extra _____, just to be sure (it isn't just toilet paper, that's just the one thing Westerners do not want to desperately need and not have). It's not even hoarding, per se, in the traditional sense (like crazy people who have 94 cats and dogs, and they get taken away by the authorities, only to collect a hundred more in the next two years. That's a sickness. I had a couple in my ward who was in the news every couple of years for that. That's hoarding). People with a garage full of toilet paper, who buy more, "just to be sure," aren't sick, like true hoarders. They are scared and panicking.
Tacenda Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 3 hours ago, rongo said: It's fear and panic, often subtle and subconscious. As people continue to see empty shelves, they subconsciously think, "What if? . . ." and buy extra _____, just to be sure (it isn't just toilet paper, that's just the one thing Westerners do not want to desperately need and not have). It's not even hoarding, per se, in the traditional sense (like crazy people who have 94 cats and dogs, and they get taken away by the authorities, only to collect a hundred more in the next two years. That's a sickness. I had a couple in my ward who was in the news every couple of years for that. That's hoarding). People with a garage full of toilet paper, who buy more, "just to be sure," aren't sick, like true hoarders. They are scared and panicking. Love this meme, going to try to be the outer edge!
rongo Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 26 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Love this meme, going to try to be the outer edge! +1 Free Tacenda! Let her at least get rep points . . . This morning was my first "breadline" experience. We haven't really had to go to the store for three weeks since this started, but we're starting to need some things. I joined the line and waited for 40 minutes for Walmart to open. It was actually pleasant and well-organized. Still no flour, though, and still a lot of empty shelves. They announced that there was plenty of toilet paper for everyone there, so no pushing or running. And still, some pushed and ran . . . If I'm ever confronted with stuff like that, I want to ask people if this is the kind of person they want this whole thing to make them into? Is this how they want to be and how they want to be seen? Does it feel good? 3
Calm Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, rongo said: ever confronted with stuff like that, I want to ask people if this is the kind of person they want this whole thing to make them into? Is this how they want to be and how they want to be seen? Does it feel good? Don’t be surprised if they say it isn’t their fault, circumstances are requiring them to act that way. If they didn’t do it, others would be leaving them with the short end of the stick. Standard justification. Do unto others before they do unto you. Edited April 3, 2020 by Calm
Tacenda Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 Thanks @rongo means a lot! The meme was found on FB, of which I'm such an addict, like this place.
bluebell Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 1 hour ago, rongo said: +1 Free Tacenda! Let her at least get rep points . . . This morning was my first "breadline" experience. We haven't really had to go to the store for three weeks since this started, but we're starting to need some things. I joined the line and waited for 40 minutes for Walmart to open. It was actually pleasant and well-organized. Still no flour, though, and still a lot of empty shelves. They announced that there was plenty of toilet paper for everyone there, so no pushing or running. And still, some pushed and ran . . . If I'm ever confronted with stuff like that, I want to ask people if this is the kind of person they want this whole thing to make them into? Is this how they want to be and how they want to be seen? Does it feel good? I've found that while walmart was out of rice and flour in my area, other stores like Winco and Safeway had it. If you really need some you might want to check around. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 6 hours ago, rongo said: It's fear and panic, often subtle and subconscious. As people continue to see empty shelves, they subconsciously think, "What if? . . ." and buy extra _____, just to be sure (it isn't just toilet paper, that's just the one thing Westerners do not want to desperately need and not have). It's not even hoarding, per se, in the traditional sense (like crazy people who have 94 cats and dogs, and they get taken away by the authorities, only to collect a hundred more in the next two years. That's a sickness. I had a couple in my ward who was in the news every couple of years for that. That's hoarding). People with a garage full of toilet paper, who buy more, "just to be sure," aren't sick, like true hoarders. They are scared and panicking. Whether or not fear and panic is at the root, what they are doing is, by definition, hoarding, as per this online definition: amass (money or valued objects) and hide or store away. "thousands of antiques hoarded by a compulsive collector"
Tacenda Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 This just got personal, our good friends, a couple, had Sacrament last Sunday with their neighbor that invited them because her husband is deployed right now, it was with her son and father, her son broke the bread, he's 22. They were notified today that he has found out he has the corona virus. The husband, our friend, has a terrible cough almost every year during flu season, not sure how his lungs will react if he gets the virus. I thought our friends were smarter than this! I'm so mad that the church hasn't come out and told members not to do this, I hope that's not why my MIL leaves her retirement community, to go have Sacrament with the different family members in my extended family who pick her up, but we put the kibosh on anyone asking her over on Sundays.
Amulek Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Whether or not fear and panic is at the root, what they are doing is, by definition, hoarding, as per this online definition: amass (money or valued objects) and hide or store away. "thousands of antiques hoarded by a compulsive collector" My dad has a year's supply of toilet paper along with his food storage. He just bought an extra package from Sam's Club every time they needed some over the course of a year and stored it away. After he reached a year's worth in storage, he went back to just buying the one package again and started cycling through what they had put aside for an emergency. I don't know that I would consider such behavior to be hoarding though. The word "hoarding," in my mind, carries a certain negative connotation. But we don't typically speak about Joseph of Egypt in terms of "hoarding" grain for seven years. Same goes for the fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper. Perhaps there is a certain line where someone can cross from 'prudent storage' over to the realm of 'wanton hoarding.' I'm just not sure how one would go about setting such a line though. 1
mfbukowski Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 5 hours ago, rongo said: +1 Free Tacenda! Let her at least get rep points . . . This morning was my first "breadline" experience. We haven't really had to go to the store for three weeks since this started, but we're starting to need some things. I joined the line and waited for 40 minutes for Walmart to open. It was actually pleasant and well-organized. Still no flour, though, and still a lot of empty shelves. They announced that there was plenty of toilet paper for everyone there, so no pushing or running. And still, some pushed and ran . . . If I'm ever confronted with stuff like that, I want to ask people if this is the kind of person they want this whole thing to make them into? Is this how they want to be and how they want to be seen? Does it feel good? What is wacky here is that lines like that have to be monitored by store employees for correct distancing- and then they only let in so many people determined by the store square footage!! It's all calibrated to keep people "scientifically" apart. So say if the store by square footage can only accomodate 25 people- keeping the correct separation space- all this is now published- they only let in 25 people. One leaves, one gets in! AND the others in line have to keep their 6 foot distance too- so 25 people in line, say means the line will be 25x6 feet long or 150 feet!! It's totally insane. And now we have to wear masks- even if we make our own, using scarfs, bandannas, or scraps of cloth!!
mfbukowski Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 29 minutes ago, Amulek said: Perhaps there is a certain line where someone can cross from 'prudent storage' over to the realm of 'wanton hoarding.' I'm just not sure how one would go about setting such a line though. I am sure eventually governments will create one. And remember no more than 50 steps on the Sabbath. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 3, 2020 Posted April 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Amulek said: My dad has a year's supply of toilet paper along with his food storage. He just bought an extra package from Sam's Club every time they needed some over the course of a year and stored it away. After he reached a year's worth in storage, he went back to just buying the one package again and started cycling through what they had put aside for an emergency. I don't know that I would consider such behavior to be hoarding though. The word "hoarding," in my mind, carries a certain negative connotation. But we don't typically speak about Joseph of Egypt in terms of "hoarding" grain for seven years. Same goes for the fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper. Perhaps there is a certain line where someone can cross from 'prudent storage' over to the realm of 'wanton hoarding.' I'm just not sure how one would go about setting such a line though. I agree about the negative connotation, and perhaps your word “prudent” is the operative term in determining the line you speak of. Prudence can be subjective, but subjectivity doesn’t make a concept inappropriate. 1
The Nehor Posted April 4, 2020 Posted April 4, 2020 On 4/3/2020 at 11:25 AM, Tacenda said: Love this meme, going to try to be the outer edge! Where is the Profiteering circle?
Tacenda Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: Where is the Profiteering circle? See that little speck? It is so small because the circles are so embarrassed by it!
The Nehor Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 Just found out someone I know lost about half of their lung capacity and she is not out of the woods yet. She is in her 30s with no known preexisting complications. Nowhere near as close to me as Papa is to his family member but still hitting home. I think of my extended family, some of whom have conditions that could make this worse and are older. Stay as safe as you can out there. 1
MustardSeed Posted April 5, 2020 Author Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) I imagine after this next week we will all know of someone who has this awful thing. Edited April 5, 2020 by MustardSeed
The Nehor Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 16 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I imagine after this next week we will all know of someone who has this awful thing. Just broke 1.2 million confirmed cases worldwide. Total confirmed deaths just passed 68,000.
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