Apostasy is worse than murder

[Tacenda]

Reading through this, BY talks about reformation and having people shed others blood. This is so creepy. I don't believe he came right out and said that non believers should want to have their blood shed, but he sure puts the idea there, IMO.

https://jod.mrm.org/4/215?fbclid=IwAR2Pfh5Dm3RBA-d5_f5n0tnccpN39aJk9Ke8-cf-MEuauV2OFOQ6Qm8jONA

To Know God is Eternal Life—God the Father of Our Spirits and Bodies—Things Created Spiritually First—Atonement By the Shedding of Blood

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I included the entire quote the first time earlier in the thread, so no I’m not ignoring it.  I also disagree with how you’re reading the quote completely.  He says many apostates are guilty of the unforgivable sin first.  Then afterwards he associates these apostates with heinous crimes.  
 

In this case the egg comes first and not the chicken.  

As you read it, which is clearly wrong. He repeats the words “begins to be an enemy”, and graphically defines what that means in subsequent paragraphs (within two sentences) making it crystal clear that he is talking about apostates with murderous intentions. I pointed out the error of taking his statement in the first paragraph out of context when you first posted it. Did you respond to that?

Quote

Emphasis on “he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil-- the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life....” Hunt, kill, thirst for blood, spirit of the Devil, crucify Christ...just your average ex-Mormon?

 

Wait for it......" the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost.” Oh. There is a bit of a difference, no? Maybe we can agree that there are different degrees of apostasy just as there are different degrees of faith? One size does not fit all? In that we all sin, we are all in some degree of apostasy, but we all strive to do good and so we are all in some degree of faith. Repentance and forgiveness are granted. That does not make us Sons of Perdition.  They have no repentance and no forgiveness.

Your response: 

“I imagine Sam Young would also agree that the church teaches there are different degrees of apostasy.“

Quote

...and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil-- the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life,-- the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance: they make open war like the Devil, and awful is the consequence.

What is the case with many? They begin to be an enemy. What do they do when they begin to be enemies? They become murderous and seek the blood of the Saints. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[let’s roll]

21 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I would choose clarity over ambiguity on folk doctrines like this.  But better yet, I would hope that we could relegate these ideas to the dumpster and a focus on the great commandments of loving God & neighbor.  That is the heart of the gospel message.  These esoteric punishments and warnings of a petty and vengeful God who cares about tribal affiliation are huge distractions that undermine the gospel and hurt friends and families.  I find them antithetical to the Christian message.  

I invite you to consider that picking what you perceive to be the most strident statement on the topic and then advocating for the most strident interpretation of that statement may not be the best path to any of your stated aims.

As for clarity, I suggest to you that knowing God will judge the heart of each of His sons and daughters and that each of us will acknowledge that all of His judgments (as to us and each of our brothers and sisters) are just provides the ultimate clarity and comfort and peace as well. 

Working to spread that message seems a better path to your stated aims.

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes.  Because those references pertain to the Celestial glory.  Everyone is saved from death, even if spewed down to the Terrestrial for being lukewarm.

I'm looking forward to the ride.   I might take the long flight to telestial just for fun.   It's odd that god doesn't know everyone who does not get exalted.  Makes judgement easy--anyone he doesn't know is coldly sent packing.  

I was always suspicious that god didn't know me...I guess the proof is found in the scriptures.  There can't be any hope for all of us whom god never knew.  

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Literally no offence intended, but these questions sound like you've never read D&C 76 or Gospel Principles, to pick just two handy examples. Latter-day Saint doctrine is nearly universalist in its soteriology. In the end, the most wicked of men will be saved in a kingdom of glory on the sole condition that they accept Jesus Christ and repent of all their sins so that He can cleanse them. This offer is never denied to anyone. Experiencing temporary hell (withdrawal of the protective power of the Atonement) in Spirit Prison will be a necessary step for some, but the victory is Christ's, and He will redeem every soul who will not reject Him as the ultimate act of rebellion.

This is basic doctrine for Latter-day Saints. Quoting from the gospel topic titled 'Salvation':

 

Oh I've read it all, that's why I know it doesn't add up.  But its nice to be able to ask the individual believer what they think...how they try and reconcile.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

As you read it, which is clearly wrong. He repeats the words “begins to be an enemy”, and graphically defines what that means in subsequent paragraphs (within two sentences) making it crystal clear that he is talking about apostates with murderous intentions. I pointed out the error of taking his statement in the first paragraph out of context when you first posted it. Did you respond to that?

Your response: 

“I imagine Sam Young would also agree that the church teaches there are different degrees of apostasy.“

What is the case with many? They begin to be en enemy. What do they do when they begin to be enemies? They become murderous and seek the blood of the Saints. 

I can't find anything here to build on unfortunately.  Best to agree to disagree at this point.  

[Bernard Gui]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

I can't find anything here to build on unfortunately.  Best to agree to disagree at this point.  

Yep.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

I invite you to consider that picking what you perceive to be the most strident statement on the topic and then advocating for the most strident interpretation of that statement may not be the best path to any of your stated aims.

As for clarity, I suggest to you that knowing God will judge the heart of each of His sons and daughters and that each of us will acknowledge that all of His judgments (as to us and each of our brothers and sisters) are just provides the ultimate clarity and comfort and peace as well. 

Working to spread that message seems a better path to your stated aims.

I picked a couple statements that are used in current curriculum to illustrate this as a problem that continues to be perpetuated.  Just like other problems we've recently been changing and disavowing, there is a need to continue to do this until all the problems are corrected for.  I even see that as line upon line growth or the ongoing restoration as Uchtdorf put it.  

I do agree with you that leaving the judgments to God and believing that God will judge on the heart and that God's judgments are just and merciful are important things to emphasize.  In the spirit of doing that, it would be nice to have current leaders of the church do that, while also pointing out the mistakes of the past.  Otherwise we have more charitable messages mixed with more judgmental quotes from the past, and in effect unfortunately we still have a lot of the old vengeful judgmental God being reflected in our culture.  

Edited January 4, 2020 by hope_for_things

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I picked a couple statements that are used in current curriculum to illustrate this as a problem that continues to be perpetuated.  Just like other problems we've recently been changing and disavowing, there is a need to continue to do this until all the problems are corrected for.  I even see that as line upon line growth or the ongoing restoration as Uchtdorf put it.  

I do agree with you that leaving the judgments to God and believing that God will judge on the heart and that God's judgments are just and merciful are important things to emphasize.  In the spirit of doing that, it would be nice to have current leaders of the church do that, while also pointing out the mistakes of the past.  Otherwise we have more charitable messages mixed with more judgmental quotes from the past, and in effect unfortunately we still have a lot of the old vengeful judgmental God being reflected in our culture.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/time-is-running-out-do-the-necessary-spiritual-work-president-nelson-says?lang=eng

I wonder what Pres. Nelson means when he says this below:

“As President of His Church, I plead with you who have distanced yourselves from the Church and with you who have not yet really sought to know that the Savior’s Church has been restored. Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now. Time is running out,” he said.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Tacenda

[InCognitus]

On 1/2/2020 at 7:15 AM, Meadowchik said:

On 12/30/2019 at 4:48 PM, InCognitus said:

While there may be different levels of apostasy, I think the quote from HC is simply saying that some apostates have gone as far as committing the unpardonable sin beyond their apostasy.  It's a separate issue.

And yet blaspheming against the Holy Ghost IS a form of apostasy.

But as you well know, there are different degrees of apostasy just as there are different degrees of sin.   Lying to a kid on a schoolyard playground is a sin, stealing a candy bar from a convenience store is a sin.  But would we say that such sins are the same as murder?   No, of course not.   People can repent and come back from the lesser sins, but some greater sins result in a “greater damnation” (Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47), and in the case of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost there is no possibility of repentance.   These are not the same by any stretch of the terms.

So when Sam Young is quoted as saying that apostasy, "is the worst possible sin you can commit. Apostasy is considered worse than murder”, why try to justify that as a true statement?  Why the need to defend such a false statement?

I won’t name names because I don't want to drag their names into this, but I know, and I know that you know, of several people who were excommunicated for apostasy and have returned to the church (two people in the so called “September Six” come to mind).  Why don’t you ask any of those who have returned if the church teaches that apostasy is worse than murder, or the same as blasphemy of the Holy Ghost? Just ask them. 

On 1/2/2020 at 7:15 AM, Meadowchik said:

Sam Young might reject the idea that he's rebelled against the Holy Ghost, but there are surely people who would insist that he must be rebelling against the Holy Ghost. So, from his perspective, he's being honest and genuine, but is still faced with people who think the opposite.

You are committing the argumentum ad populum logical fallacy by appealing to what people believe to try to justify what Sam Young has said.  But the fact remains that what Sam Young said is absolutely false, it’s a lie, and people need to stop trying to defend his actions.

Edited January 4, 2020 by InCognitus

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Reading through this, BY talks about reformation and having people shed others blood. This is so creepy. I don't believe he came right out and said that non believers should want to have their blood shed, but he sure puts the idea there, IMO.

https://jod.mrm.org/4/215?fbclid=IwAR2Pfh5Dm3RBA-d5_f5n0tnccpN39aJk9Ke8-cf-MEuauV2OFOQ6Qm8jONA

To Know God is Eternal Life—God the Father of Our Spirits and Bodies—Things Created Spiritually First—Atonement By the Shedding of Blood

Not sure what your point is here.  Brigham is right.

All sin requires blood atonement.  The wages of sin are death.  Sin made us subject to death.  All sin.  That's why a sinless Christ had to suffer, bleed, and die to pay for sin.

Sin requires the shedding of blood and death.

We are blessed to have the blood sacrifice of Christ to pay for our sins.  But what of those who intentionally reject Christ, fight against him, and won't repent?

Guess which blood pays for the sins of those who point blank refuse to accept Christ?

Edited January 4, 2020 by JLHPROF

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“Mormonism,” or as President Nelson has encouraged us to identify it, membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is not an ethnicity. It is adherence to a faith or a set of beliefs, principles and values. It is the embracing and honoring of a covenant. Notwithstanding my “Mormon” pioneer pedigree or the Church callings I have held or my baptism at age 8, or the number of years I have been an active member, I am no more a part of the covenant people than is the most recent faithful convert in the locale furthest removed from Salt Lake City. 

What I and that very recent convert in the remotest part of the Church share is not a common ethnicity or even, necessarily, a common culture, but a fervent belief and faith in the doctrines and teachings of the gospel of Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith and as taught under the direction of living prophets and apostles today. That and a fealty to the covenants we each have made as administered by the Church in this last dispensation. 

As Jesus said to the Jews (and I’m paraphrasing here from memory), do not say, “We have Abraham as our father.” God is able from these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Well that is simply your rigid opinion and not worth more than that. As long as I am on the rolls of the Church I can identify as MORMON or not, Up to me.  Does not matter whether I am particpating or not even if I have a fervent belief that Joseph Smith was not a prophet and that the LDS leaders have no more communication with God then anyone else on the planet.

Of course that is my opinion and not worth more than yours to anyone else but me.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

You are committing the argumentum ad populum logical fallacy by appealing to what people believe to try to justify what Sam Young has said.  But the fact remains that what Sam Young said is absolutely false, it’s a lie, and people need to stop trying to defend his actions.

It would also be nice if we dispensed with the silliness about Sam Young being victimized in this thread.  He's the one that made the false statement about us, after all.  We are defending ourselves against him.

Thanks,

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/time-is-running-out-do-the-necessary-spiritual-work-president-nelson-says?lang=eng

I wonder what Pres. Nelson means when he says this below:

“As President of His Church, I plead with you who have distanced yourselves from the Church and with you who have not yet really sought to know that the Savior’s Church has been restored. Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now. Time is running out,” he said.

 

His emphasis on the church is shortsighted and misplaced in my opinion.  It should rather be directed towards an emphasis on transformation into a disciple of Christ and doing good in the world which is time sensitive in that people are suffering, but I fear his time is running out comment is focused on apocalyptic thinking instead.  Probably not a statement I can glean much value from.  

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I picked a couple statements that are used in current curriculum to illustrate this as a problem that continues to be perpetuated.  Just like other problems we've recently been changing and disavowing, there is a need to continue to do this until all the problems are corrected for.  I even see that as line upon line growth or the ongoing restoration as Uchtdorf put it.  

I do agree with you that leaving the judgments to God and believing that God will judge on the heart and that God's judgments are just and merciful are important things to emphasize.  In the spirit of doing that, it would be nice to have current leaders of the church do that, while also pointing out the mistakes of the past.  Otherwise we have more charitable messages mixed with more judgmental quotes from the past, and in effect unfortunately we still have a lot of the old vengeful judgmental God being reflected in our culture.  

Thank you for your thoughts.

As you’re likely surmised, I don’t see any problem with the quote you and others have spent so much time and effort to parse.  I’m not inclined to participate in that parsing and, as reflected in my prior posts, prefer to focus on the power of the atonement, but do note that I have been surprised that in all that parsing so little, if any, attention has been paid to the statement that one must know God and have had the heavens opened to them to be in a position to sin against the HG.

To know God connotes to me much, much more than knowing of Him or about Him, or believing in Him, but rather knowing Him in a way that results only from having the heavens opened to the knower...knowing Him as Moses did, as the brother of Jared did, as Joseph did.  “For this is life eternal...”

Understanding that as a prerequisite underpins in large part my belief that no one unwillingly, unwittingly or unknowingly sins against the HG.

As to the idea of mixed messages, many ascribe that or any number of similar characterizations to Christ’s message.  My impression of His response to such characterizations is “he that hath ears, let him hear” or some variation of that exhortation.

Godspeed to you HFT.

 

 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 12/21/2019 at 5:36 PM, Calm said:

From the most recentNewsweek article:

Out of curiosity, wondering what views others have.  Please back up with scripture or documented church teachings it possible so as to show process of reasoning.

Me...I see the two as in different categories.

I think along the lines of Eternal consequences, it is a serious matter. But murder is far worse than any sin, as it affects the Eternal Progress of another, the ability to mature more Spiritually, to cut short the opportunities of (possibly) Eternal Marriage, Children, and raising a “righteous posterity”. Apostasy is being careless with one’s own soul, which all have the right to do,  and their own Eternal Reward. But murder is to (again) possibly rob another of countless blessings, and opportunities. Also, the murderer has no ability to make restitution for what he or she has taken, even more so for those who kill the young. This is why Jesus Christ himself gave such forbidden warnings against those who harm any child. 
 

True “apostasy”, is for one to “know the truth” via the Holy Ghost, and then deny that truth, in this respect he may be right, because “again”, Jesus Christ made it clear, that one can sin against the “Father and The Son” and be forgiven, but to sin against the “Holy Ghost”, means no forgiveness, “in this life or in the life to come”. A commandment that makes even more clear that the, “Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost”, are not all one, or the same being.  

[smac97]

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well that is simply your rigid opinion and not worth more than that. As long as I am on the rolls of the Church I can identify as MORMON or not, Up to me.  Does not matter whether I am particpating or not even if I have a fervent belief that Joseph Smith was not a prophet and that the LDS leaders have no more communication with God then anyone else on the planet.

Of course that is my opinion and not worth more than yours to anyone else but me.

I don't begrudge you in you holding on to whatever vestiges of our faith you can. I'm all for it, in fact.  Even if it's just the popular label, that's something.

Nevertheless, I think Scott's point is valid.  By way of illustration: In 2018 my wife took a trip to the UK with her sister.  She was there on a Sunday, and she attended Church services somewhere in London.  They found an immediate community there.  It wasn't about nationality, or language, or political ideology, or race, or socioeconomic status.  The thing around which the community coheres, the thing that gives its individual members something in common with each other, is faith.  Some measure of common acceptance of, as Scott put it, "a set of beliefs, principles and values."

I had similar experiences when I was in the military.  There was a strong sense of community and cohesion with other members, which arose almost entirely from religious observance.  I spent a year at a military language school on a small military base in Monterey, California.  There was a designated corner on the base where the members of the Church met to catch a ride (those of us who lacked transportation).  The local ward would always send an empty van to pick us up (4-7 of us).  Several of us arrived early at the spot early so that we could chat and catch up.  Then we got in the van and went to church together.  We also had periodic firesides and FHE meetings.  These things were very edifying and comforting for us.  We are young and far from home, so it felt great to re-connect with fellow members of the community.  But again, that connection came through commonality in terms of belief and observance. 

Without this commonality, what unique affinity do we have?  What sort of "community?"  What is the connective tissue, if not faith?

In any event, I hope you hold on.  I find this excerpt from the EoM poignant: 

Quote

Latter-day Saints are strongly counseled to love those who have left the faith, and to encourage, plead, and work with those who have strayed, inviting "the lost sheep" back to the fold (Luke 15:3-7). Of the wayward, the resurrected Savior taught, "Ye shall not cast him out of your places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them" (3 Ne. 18:32).

I'm not casting this into your teeth.  I'm quoting it with sincerity.  I too frequently fail to follow these admonishments.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

18 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Quote

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/time-is-running-out-do-the-necessary-spiritual-work-president-nelson-says?lang=eng

I wonder what Pres. Nelson means when he says this below:

“As President of His Church, I plead with you who have distanced yourselves from the Church and with you who have not yet really sought to know that the Savior’s Church has been restored. Do the spiritual work to find out for yourselves, and please do it now. Time is running out,” he said.

His emphasis on the church is shortsighted and misplaced in my opinion.  

I don't think so.  The community is important.  The saving ordinances are important.  The priesthood is important.  The correct principles found in the "fulness" of the Gospl are important.

18 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

It should rather be directed towards an emphasis on transformation into a disciple of Christ and doing good in the world which is time sensitive in that people are suffering, but I fear his time is running out comment is focused on apocalyptic thinking instead.  Probably not a statement I can glean much value from.  

Unless, of course, Pres. Nelson conflates what you differentiate.  Joining "the Savior's Church" is part of the "transformation into a disciple of Christ and doing good in the world."

We believe the Church has a lot to do.  It has some very important mandates to fulfill, which must be done by the members.  

Ephesians 4 becomes relevant:

Quote

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

I just can't go along with the notion that discounts or disregards the significance of membership in the Lord's Church, receipt of its saving ordinances, and adherence to its precepts.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

His emphasis on the church is shortsighted and misplaced in my opinion.  It should rather be directed towards an emphasis on transformation into a disciple of Christ and doing good in the world which is time sensitive in that people are suffering, but I fear his time is running out comment is focused on apocalyptic thinking instead.  Probably not a statement I can glean much value from.  

Disciple meaning follower correct?  Or more precisely follower of his teachings and perhaps his authority.

I  would say one can't be a disciple of Christ while denying those.  And the only place those teachings and that authority reside today IS in the Church.

To claim to be a disciple of Christ from outside the Church he established strikes me as pretty meaningless.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't begrudge you in you holding on to whatever vestiges of our faith you can. I'm all for it, in fact.  Even if it's just the popular label, that's something.

Nevertheless, I think Scott's point is valid.  By way of illustration: In 2018 my wife took a trip to the UK with her sister.  She was there on a Sunday, and she attended Church services somewhere in London.  They found an immediate community there.  It wasn't about nationality, or language, or political ideology, or race, or socioeconomic status.  The thing around which the community coheres, the thing that gives its individual members something in common with each other, is faith.  Some measure of common acceptance of, as Scott put it, "a set of beliefs, principles and values."

I had similar experiences when I was in the military.  There was a strong sense of community and cohesion with other members, which arose almost entirely from religious observance.  I spent a year at a military language school on a small military base in Monterey, California.  There was a designated corner on the base where the members of the Church met to catch a ride (those of us who lacked transportation).  The local ward would always send an empty van to pick us up (4-7 of us).  Several of us arrived early at the spot early so that we could chat and catch up.  Then we got in the van and went to church together.  We also had periodic firesides and FHE meetings.  These things were very edifying and comforting for us.  We are young and far from home, so it felt great to re-connect with fellow members of the community.  But again, that connection came through commonality in terms of belief and observance. 

Without this commonality, what unique affinity do we have?  What sort of "community?"  What is the connective tissue, if not faith?

In any event, I hope you hold on.  I find this excerpt from the EoM poignant: 

I'm not casting this into your teeth.  I'm quoting it with sincerity.  I too frequently fail to follow these admonishments.

Thanks,

-Smac

My friend, as you know my wife and I are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yet, we find a sense of community there as you have described. It is because of our common faith in Christ. In that similar vein, might I suggest that if your wife in England visited a Mennonite Church or if you went to the Methodist Church in Monterrey, CA you would have found comfort in communities of faith as well. It isn't about the church, it is about a common faith in Christ. You use the word "commonality." What is our true commonality? Our faith in Christ, not our membership in any one given church. My wife and I can testify to that. When we are present in worship in an LDS ward, we find the same sweet spirit, the same fellowship, and Godly people as we would find in an non-LDS church. That is our testimony. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Navidad
grammar

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't think so.  The community is important.  The saving ordinances are important.  The priesthood is important.  The correct principles found in the "fulness" of the Gospl are important.

Unless, of course, Pres. Nelson conflates what you differentiate.  Joining "the Savior's Church" is part of the "transformation into a disciple of Christ and doing good in the world."

We believe the Church has a lot to do.  It has some very important mandates to fulfill, which must be done by the members.  

Ephesians 4 becomes relevant:

I just can't go along with the notion that discounts or disregards the significance of membership in the Lord's Church, receipt of its saving ordinances, and adherence to its precepts.

Thanks,

-Smac

Me again. I agree that all those things you listed are as you said "important." Essential? No. Important yes.  I don't discount or disregard the significance of membership in the LDS church. I would wish that you wouldn't discount or disregard the significance of membership and fellowship in other churches as well. 

 

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Navidad said:

My friend, as you know my wife and I are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yet, we find a sense of community there as you have described. It is because of our common faith in Christ.

I am happy to hear that.

8 minutes ago, Navidad said:

In that similar vein, might I suggest that if your wife in England visited a Mennonite Church or if you went to the Methodist Church in Monterrey, CA you would have found comfort in communities of faith as well.

I think you are right.

8 minutes ago, Navidad said:

It isn't about the church, it is about a common faith in Christ. You use the word "commonality." What is our true commonality? Our faith in Christ, not our membership in any one given church. My wife and I can testify to that. When we are present in worship in an LDS ward, we find the same sweet spirit, the same fellowship, and Godly people as we would find in an non-LDS church. That is our testimony. 

Thank you for sharing this.  I will give it some thought.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Me again. I agree that all those things you listed are as you said "important." Essential? No. Important yes.  I don't discount or disregard the significance of membership in the LDS church. I would wish that you wouldn't discount or disregard the significance of membership and fellowship in other churches as well. 

I was not speaking of "other churches," and I did not intend to disparage the sincerity and devotion expressed by members of other faiths.  I apologize if I gave that impression.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Disciple meaning follower correct?  Or more precisely follower of his teachings and perhaps his authority.

I  would say one can't be a disciple of Christ while denying those.  And the only place those teachings and that authority reside today IS in the Church.

To claim to be a disciple of Christ from outside the Church he established strikes me as pretty meaningless.

So my friend, as a non-member I am not a disciple of Christ? Is that your point?  The church He established is the Christian church wherever it is found. Let me assure you from the bottom of my heart - my faith and commitment to Christ is not "pretty meaningless." I would love for you to get to know me. 

[Tacenda]

 

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

So my friend, as a non-member I am not a disciple of Christ? Is that your point?  The church He established is the Christian church wherever it is found. Let me assure you from the bottom of my heart - my faith and commitment to Christ is not "pretty meaningless." I would love for you to get to know me. 

The LDS like JL are in for a rude awakening when they see many non-LDS with Christ, and many of their LDS friends/family not with Him, IMO. There is no way, that God/Jesus would only have 1 percent of this world be able to be with Him. He loves all and wants them to be with Him. He wouldn't establish a brick and mortar church and exclude billions like that if they know and follow Him.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Tacenda