Apostasy is worse than murder

[Calm]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

And is it possible for an unrepentant apostate to receive celestial glory?  

It is impossible for an unrepentant gossiper to receive celestial glory.

All who desire celestial glory must repent of all their sins.  None that does not repent gets a free pass.

[stemelbow]

36 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is impossible for an unrepentant gossiper to receive celestial glory.

All who desire celestial glory must repent of all their sins.  None that does not repent gets a free pass.

Holy Schmolies...I can't tell if that's a church-wide condemnation or call for repentance or a sweet message suggesting all will be exalted.  

But...

This too is a teaching that never made sense to me.  Everyone repents.  No matter what.  Everyone's knee will bow and tongue confess.  It only leads to more questions though.  What if my neighbor gossips about my other neighbor the minute before a, God forbid, terminal heart attack hits?  Of course we don't know how that works out, but it conjures up imagines of God trying to give those sweet enough people one last chance.  Oh but if he does that for them, maybe he'll do it for another.  Of course the biggest problem is, considering all the minor offenses any old person engages in during a lifetime, does anyone ever really repent?    And if all the former sins come back when you commit a new sin, what the hecks the point of it all?  It's just that much more messy.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I was born into the church, Scott. Raised in it. Believed it and raised my children in it and served in it for forty years. It's part of my heritage and my life. So I am Mormon, whether I still believe the truth claims or not. 

“Mormonism,” or as President Nelson has encouraged us to identify it, membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is not an ethnicity. It is adherence to a faith or a set of beliefs, principles and values. It is the embracing and honoring of a covenant. Notwithstanding my “Mormon” pioneer pedigree or the Church callings I have held or my baptism at age 8, or the number of years I have been an active member, I am no more a part of the covenant people than is the most recent faithful convert in the locale furthest removed from Salt Lake City. 

What I and that very recent convert in the remotest part of the Church share is not a common ethnicity or even, necessarily, a common culture, but a fervent belief and faith in the doctrines and teachings of the gospel of Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith and as taught under the direction of living prophets and apostles today. That and a fealty to the covenants we each have made as administered by the Church in this last dispensation. 

As Jesus said to the Jews (and I’m paraphrasing here from memory), do not say, “We have Abraham as our father.” God is able from these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm not talking about white supremacy or just anything at all as if "anything goes" as long as one believes it. Remember I already stipulated that the person keeps the commandments, and believes in Christ, and I'll happily add the Two Great Commandments of the New Testament to that. 

 

White supremacy is an extreme example to illustrate the point, but the point is universally applicable: There is no virtue in error, however adamantly or sincerely held. 

[pogi]

55 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

This too is a teaching that never made sense to me.  Everyone repents.  No matter what.  Everyone's knee will bow and tongue confess. 

Confessing that Jesus is the Christ is very different from repenting and changing behavior.  

55 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It only leads to more questions though.  What if my neighbor gossips about my other neighbor the minute before a, God forbid, terminal heart attack hits?  Of course we don't know how that works out, but it conjures up imagines of God trying to give those sweet enough people one last chance.  Oh but if he does that for them, maybe he'll do it for another.  Of course the biggest problem is, considering all the minor offenses any old person engages in during a lifetime, does anyone ever really repent?    And if all the former sins come back when you commit a new sin, what the hecks the point of it all?  It's just that much more messy.

Keep in mind that final judgment is reserved until after your time in the spirit world, after the return of Jesus, and after his 1,000 year reign.  Only then will we receive a final judgment and inherit a state of glory.  One still has plenty of opportunity to repent if they die right after gossiping.  

Nothing will enter celestial glory that is not totally and completely wiped clean through repentance.  No unclean thing can enter. Not one person.  Not one ounce of unrepentant filth.  

Edited January 3, 2020 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Ok.  Then.  Apparently you have no idea if any apostate is a son of Perdition (well except for the make believe Cain), right?  But what you don't know, in spite of pretending to know, is if all apostates are sons of perdition--that's simply not for you to decide.     You'd have to come up with explanations like, "well they don't know as much as me" in order to try and explain away any such notion, apparently.   you've even imagined candidates who sit amongst the apostates, it seems. 

So is it possible for a person who has murdered another, like Nephi, to receive celestial glory?  And is it possible for an unrepentant apostate to receive celestial glory?  

What do you think?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Have you been around very many members interacting on a longterm basis with a murderer?  If not, how do you know this?

Not with a murderer, but with people whose loved ones were murdered. The murderers were horrific people. I know apostates who are great people....many in my own family. There is no way I would ever conflate murderers with apostates unless the apostates were hunting and killing the Saints.

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not with a murderer, but with people whose loved ones were murdered. The murderers were horrific people. I know apostates who are great people....many in my own family. There is no way I would ever conflate murderers with apostates unless the apostates were hunting and killing the Saints.

Yep!  My bro-in-law has left the church and is very antagonistic.  He is honest to goodness treated no different by family and friends. His ward still welcomes him and respects him if he goes to ward activities with the fam.  There was a certainly a period of transition which was difficult for everybody, which is natural with any change, but especially where eternal relationships are put in question and expectations are shattered.  It is difficult, not just for those who leave. But to say that he is treated like a murderer is just a joke.  I understand that experience can vary, and I don't doubt that some members can be cruel (and need to repent), but I have never in all of my years seen any apostate treated like a murderer.  

Edited January 3, 2020 by pogi

[stemelbow]

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

Confessing that Jesus is the Christ is very different from repenting and changing behavior.  

Keep in mind that final judgment is reserved until after your time in the spirit world, after the return of Jesus, and after his 1,000 year reign.  Only then will we receive a final judgment and inherit a state of glory.  One still has plenty of opportunity to repent if they die right after gossiping.  

Nothing will enter celestial glory that is not totally and completely wiped clean through repentance.  No unclean thing can enter. Not one person.  Not one ounce of unrepentant filth.  

Eewww...unrepentant filth.  So if a gossiper gossips just before the judgement then that filth ain't making it?  But if the gossiped stops just before the judgement then he/she ain't really filth after all?  

[stemelbow]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What do you think?

I've concluded it's all kind of nonsense, but I'd  be happy to be corrected.

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Eewww...unrepentant filth.  So if a gossiper gossips just before the judgement then that filth ain't making it?  But if the gossiped stops just before the judgement then he/she ain't really filth after all?  

If they have not evolved beyond gossiping after 1,000 years of spiritual progression in living in the presence and reign of God Himself, without Satan there to tempt them, then I would suggest they are not fit for Godhood.   

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

If they have not evolved beyond gossiping after 1,000 years of spiritual progression in living in the presence and reign of God Himself, without Satan there to tempt them, then I would suggest they are not fit for Godhood.   

If its ll that easy then I'm confident every person who has ever lived will get exalted.  Why do the scriptures tell a different story?  

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Holy Schmolies...I can't tell if that's a church-wide condemnation or call for repentance or a sweet message suggesting all will be exalted.  

But...

This too is a teaching that never made sense to me.  Everyone repents.  No matter what.  Everyone's knee will bow and tongue confess.  It only leads to more questions though.  

Don't confuse salvation and exaltation.

Everyone will bow the knee and confess (accept) that Jesus is the Christ.  That's why Christ said none are lost except perdition.  All will be redeemed from the grave and saved in a kingdom of glory.

Exaltation requires obedience to applicable laws.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Don't confuse salvation and exaltation.

Everyone will bow the knee and confess (accept) that Jesus is the Christ.  That's why Christ said none are lost except perdition.  All will be redeemed from the grave and saved in a kingdom of glory.

Exaltation requires obedience to applicable laws.

So what about those whom jesus tells he never knew them?  I thought they were believers who tried to do good things but didn't quite do enough?  It didn't seem like jesus was saying they were perdition.

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

If its ll that easy then I'm confident every person who has ever lived will get exalted.  Why do the scriptures tell a different story?  

Its really not that hard not to gossip.  Don't ask me why people choose to do it anyway.  If they wanted to, they could stop.  That is the point.  Some are pleasantly content with living below their potential, and always will be.  

"My yoke is easy and my burden is light..."

[Calm]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

If they have not evolved beyond gossiping after 1,000 years of spiritual progression in living in the presence and reign of God Himself, without Satan there to tempt them, then I would suggest they are not fit for Godhood.   

And most likely imo if someone by that time is still gossiping, it is because that is more important to them than living fully with family and God. Gossiping (or whatever the eternal equivalent might be) is a pleasure they don’t want to give up.  It is not the act that matters, but the type of person who chooses to indulge in sin for pleasure fully understanding the harm it does. 
 

They don’t care enough about others and the pain it causes to change their behaviour.  Change is a given option imo since with God’s abilities to comfort, heal, and guide, anyone who wants to change will be able to by accepting his help.  Think of the perfect surgeon, geneticist, and biochemist for fixing any physical damage or limitations for change and the perfect therapist who knows all the experiences and feelings and thoughts that led to these self destructive traits there to help emotional, spiritual, and mental work needed to change giving personal attention 24/7 for as long as needed...at that point changing one’s behaviour is a matter of choice, possibly painful and difficult choice, but still a choice.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So what about those whom jesus tells he never knew them?  I thought they were believers who tried to do good things but didn't quite do enough?  It didn't seem like jesus was saying they were perdition.

Absolutely saved, but not exalted.

He never said they were perdition.  They simply didn't follow God's laws.  Simply claiming to believe in Christ isn't enough.  Even the devils believe.

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Holy Schmolies...I can't tell if that's a church-wide condemnation or call for repentance or a sweet message suggesting all will be exalted.  

But...

This too is a teaching that never made sense to me.  Everyone repents.  No matter what.  Everyone's knee will bow and tongue confess.  It only leads to more questions though.  What if my neighbor gossips about my other neighbor the minute before a, God forbid, terminal heart attack hits?  Of course we don't know how that works out, but it conjures up imagines of God trying to give those sweet enough people one last chance.  Oh but if he does that for them, maybe he'll do it for another.  Of course the biggest problem is, considering all the minor offenses any old person engages in during a lifetime, does anyone ever really repent?    And if all the former sins come back when you commit a new sin, what the hecks the point of it all?  It's just that much more messy.

Jesus promises His rest (freedom from fear and doubt) to those who come unto Him.  That invitation extended to all...think of how different the above response might be if one was free from doubt and fear having found the rest of the Lord.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I think many of us here could agree that we'd be willing to fight forever against such a Being.

Good luck with your battle. Based on my experiences with God to date, it's not one I wish to join.

[stemelbow]

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Absolutely saved, but not exalted.

He never said they were perdition.  They simply didn't follow God's laws.  Simply claiming to believe in Christ isn't enough.  Even the devils believe.

Cool.  So people whom jesus never knew are saved.  Are the people who are lukewarm and get spewed out of his mouth saved too?  They just a sloppy ride through the cosmos for their lack of doing everything?  

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Cool.  So people whom jesus never knew are saved.  Are the people who are lukewarm and get spewed out of his mouth saved too?

Literally no offence intended, but these questions sound like you've never read D&C 76 or Gospel Principles, to pick just two handy examples. Latter-day Saint doctrine is nearly universalist in its soteriology. In the end, the most wicked of men will be saved in a kingdom of glory on the sole condition that they accept Jesus Christ and repent of all their sins so that He can cleanse them. This offer is never denied to anyone. Experiencing temporary hell (withdrawal of the protective power of the Atonement) in Spirit Prison will be a necessary step for some, but the victory is Christ's, and He will redeem every soul who will not reject Him as the ultimate act of rebellion.

This is basic doctrine for Latter-day Saints. Quoting from the gospel topic titled 'Salvation':

Quote

Salvation from the Second Death. The scriptures sometimes speak of salvation from the second death. The second death is the final spiritual death—being cut off from righteousness and denied a place in any kingdom of glory (see Alma 12:32; Doctrine and Covenants 88:24). This second death will not come until the Final Judgment, and it will come to only a few (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–37). Almost every person who has ever lived on the earth is assured salvation from the second death (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:40–45).

 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Cool.  So people whom jesus never knew are saved.  Are the people who are lukewarm and get spewed out of his mouth saved too?  They just a sloppy ride through the cosmos for their lack of doing everything?  

Yes.  Because those references pertain to the Celestial glory.  Everyone is saved from death, even if spewed down to the Terrestrial for being lukewarm.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I've concluded it's all kind of nonsense, but I'd  be happy to be corrected.

I’m not convinced you are. Maybe I’m wrong. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I already provided that earlier in the thread.  Here it is again, it comes from the History of the Church and is in this manual. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng

 

Here?

Quote

The scriptures explain who the sons of perdition are and what their fate will be.
    “All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:314).

    “And he that believes, is baptized, and receives the light and testimony of Jesus Christ, and walks well for a season, receiving the fulness of the blessings of the gospel in this world, and afterwards turns wholly unto sin, violating his covenants, he will be among those whom the gospel can never reach in the spirit world; and all such go beyond its saving power, they will taste the second death, and be banished from the presence of God eternally” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 476–77).

    “In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness, where there is no light, Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 125).

Or here?

Quote

1. The scriptures explain who the sons of perdition are and what their fate will be.

   1. Satan and the one-third of the hosts of heaven who followed him became sons of perdition (see D&C 76:25–30; 29:36–38; Revelation 12:7–9; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6).

   2. Those who in mortality have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power will also be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:31–32).

   3. Those who deny the Holy Ghost after having received it and crucify the Savior unto themselves will have no forgiveness and will be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:34–36; Matthew 12:31–32).

   4. Sons of perdition will suffer the wrath of God and partake of the second death (see D&C 76:33, 37–38).

   5. Those who become sons of perdition in mortality will be resurrected but will not be redeemed in a kingdom of glory (see D&C 76:38–39, 43–44; 88:24, 32).

   6. Only those who become sons of perdition will be able to comprehend the magnitude of the misery of those who inherit such a state (see D&C 76:44–48).

Joseph’s statement (“This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints“) is expanded in the next paragraph of his discourse, which you have ignored. I pointed this out earlier.

Quote

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 

When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil—the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life, the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance; they make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence...

...When you find a spirit that wants bloodshed,—murder, the same is not of God, but is of the devil.

We can’t ignore the context of these remarks...made shortly before his death at a time apostates were actively seeking it.The “many” apostates he is referring to are those who

1. seek to hunt him

2. seek to kill him

3. thirst for his blood

4. have the spirit of the devil

5. have the same spirit of those who crucified Christ

6. have the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost

7. make open war

8. want bloodshed and murder

When Joseph said, “This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints“ he was clearly referring to the subset of apostates who were murderous. During his lifetime, there were apostates who fit the above description. They succeeded in killing Hyrum and Joseph and many others. I have also pointed out that others in the scriptures who may qualify as Sons of Perdition appear to share this proclivity for murder.

Do you know of any apostates today who fit the 8 criteria above? How many ex-LDS seek to hunt and kill and thirst for the blood of the Saints today, make open war against the Church, or want to crucify the Savior? Many or a few or none?

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Here?

Or here?

Joseph’s statement (“This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints“) is expanded in the next paragraph of his discourse, which you have ignored. I pointed this out earlier.

We can’t ignore the context of these remarks...made shortly before his death at a time apostates were actively seeking it.The “many” apostates he is referring to are those who

1. seek to hunt him

2. seek to kill him

3. thirst for his blood

4. have the spirit of the devil

5. have the same spirit of those who crucified Christ

6. have the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost

7. make open war

8. want bloodshed and murder

When Joseph said, “This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints“ he was clearly referring to the subset of apostates who were murderous. During his lifetime, there were apostates who fit the above description. They succeeded in killing Hyrum and Joseph and many others. I have also pointed out that others in the scriptures who may qualify as Sons of Perdition appear to share this proclivity for murder.

Do you know of any apostates today who fit the 8 criteria above? How many ex-LDS seek to hunt and kill and thirst for the blood of the Saints today, make open war against the Church, or want to crucify the Savior? Many or a few or none?

 

I included the entire quote the first time earlier in the thread, so no I’m not ignoring it.  I also disagree with how you’re reading the quote completely.  He says many apostates are guilty of the unforgivable sin first.  Then afterwards he associates these apostates with heinous crimes.  
 

In this case the egg comes first and not the chicken.