Sanpitch Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions. Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith. There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources. The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit. My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs. What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims? The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud. But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud.
Popular Post Calm Posted December 16, 2019 Popular Post Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) So what do you want to discuss? If we can't use our scripture as sources, what would you accept? Or did you just want to tell us we were idiots for believing. Edited December 16, 2019 by Calm 9
CA Steve Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 12 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs People who don't believe in the Bible can point to the Bible to back up their beliefs. 1
InCognitus Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Sanpitch said: I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions. Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith. There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources. The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit. My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs. What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims? The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud. But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud. If it is from God, then God will back it up, which is why we have no problems asking people to ask God about it. And that's also why God provided witnesses to many of the things that Joseph Smith claimed. Witnesses to revelations and angels of God, and all that goes along with that. As for everything else, I guess I don't know of anything that refutes it. Joseph Smith's teachings and the church's teachings are completely in harmony with the Bible, for example. The Bible supports the teachings in a big way. Edited December 17, 2019 by InCognitus 4
Sanpitch Posted December 16, 2019 Author Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Calm said: So what do you want to discuss? If we can use our scripture as sources, what would you accept? Or did you just want to tell us we were idiots for believing. No I don't think you're idiots, if you are, most of my relatives, sibling and all are idiots. Of course I think JWs are on the verge of idiots but don't tell anybody I said that. I hope I'm not the idiot. Edited December 16, 2019 by Sanpitch addition
RevTestament Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 54 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions. Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith. There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources. The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit. My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs. What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims? The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud. But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud. Hmm. In my mind the Bible says it all much more clearly than the Book of Mormon - that is - the order of heaven, etc. Maybe you just accept the orthodox interpretation of the Bible. But in my mind it supports what JS taught more clearly than the BoM - or the PoGP for that matter.
InCognitus Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 30 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Hmm. In my mind the Bible says it all much more clearly than the Book of Mormon - that is - the order of heaven, etc. Maybe you just accept the orthodox interpretation of the Bible. But in my mind it supports what JS taught more clearly than the BoM - or the PoGP for that matter. The Book of Mormon does say some things more plainly, but I do know what you mean about the Bible. The Bible gives the big picture and establishes the Abrahamic covenant and the temple covenant themes from beginning to end. The doctrines taught by Joseph Smith are definitely supported by the book. We were just talking about all the temple themes in the book of Revelation in gospel doctrine class yesterday (as I'm sure many others were doing too). But having an understanding of the Old Testament really helps to understand the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and other latter-day scripture. 1
JAHS Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Sanpitch said: I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions. Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith. There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources. The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit. My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs. What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims? The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud. But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud. Well if you can't believe that Joseph Smith and all his successors are prophets of God then there is no answer that will satisfy you. I think the Bible is very supportive of most of the doctrines we believe in today. 1
The Nehor Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 17 hours ago, Sanpitch said: I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions. Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith. There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources. The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit. My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs. What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims? The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud. But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud. The burning witness of the Holy Ghost comes to mind. 1
smac97 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Sanpitch said: I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions. Here are some of the "sources" that immediately come to mind that have informed my perspective on the Church: The Scriptures. The Testimony of the Three Witnesses The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses Prayer and study, leading to spiritual impressions and confirmation. Gifts of the Spirit. Opportunities to serve. General Conference talks Continuing guidance from local and general leaders in the Church Participating in sacred ordinances, and outpourings of the Spirit relating thereto. Participating in sacred convocations, and outpourings of the Spirit relating thereto. The structure of the Church. Richard Lloyd Anderson's Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses Offenders for a Word by Daniel Peterson and Stephen Ricks Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820–1844, edited by John Welch Various writings by Daniel Peterson, Lou Midgley, Bill Hamblin, John Gee, Kerry Muehlstein, Mattew Roper, Jeff Lindsay, Richard L. Bushman, Terryl Givens, Brant Gardner, Armand Mauss, Davis Bitton, Hugh Nibley, Blake Ostler, Barry Bickmore, etc. FAIR Maxwell Institute/FARMS The Interpreter Foundation Journal of Book of Mormon Studies Study manuals (published by the Church) Biblical commentaries and guides C.S. Lewis G.K. Chesterton Epictetus My parents' example My parents-in-law's example My wife's example My siblings' examples The Church's various programs and efforts (educational institutions, instructional materials, meetings, missionary efforts, temple work, family history work, welfare and humanitarian efforts, etc.) Exemplary behavior from fellow church members I met in themilitary, and as a missionary, and at BYU (twice), and in my neighborhood and ward, and on this board. Ongoing spiritual impressions that the Church is what it claims to be. Quote Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith. He did not author the Book of Mormon. He translated it. He did not author the Pearl of Great Price, either. He did not author the Bible, either. He authored most of the Doctrine & Covenants. Quote There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources. I ask you to explain what you mean by "solid sources." Quote The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit. That is the predominant and ultimate "source," yes. But certainly not the only one. Quote My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs. What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims? The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud. But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud. It seems like you are only trying to stir the pot. Offend. Provoke. -Smac Edited December 17, 2019 by smac97 3
Sanpitch Posted December 17, 2019 Author Posted December 17, 2019 To Smac "It seems like you are only trying to stir the pot. Offend. Provoke." Well maybe or just things that come to mind. Rather than discuss all the details I'll say a thing or two. I have siblings that occasionally try get me to read the BofM, or tell me that I have to get ready and go to the temple or I'll lose my wife and kids or what ever that entails. I thought I'd suggest my thoughts to my siblings but decided this board would be more appropriate. I have a wife and kids on the JW side who try to tell me a similar story about gaining everlasting life. I care for neither faiths but it always seemed the JWs had a stronger base if someone believed the bible, I don't. I felt that the translation of the papyrus in about 1967 was the downfall of any faith I had in the church. I read everything I could on the matter. Hugh Nibley never came up with a satisfactory explanation. And if someone doesn't know what I'm writing about then look up the history of the PofGP history.
pogi Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 22 hours ago, Sanpitch said: No I don't think you're idiots, if you are, most of my relatives, sibling and all are idiots. Of course I think JWs are on the verge of idiots but don't tell anybody I said that. I hope I'm not the idiot. Your wife is JW and most of your relatives are Latter-day Saints, do you feel like the rope in a tug-o'-war? What religion do you belong to, if any?
pogi Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: I care for neither faiths but it always seemed the JWs had a stronger base if someone believed the bible, I don't. A stronger base in a Bible that you don't believe in? This is a strange argument to make. ...and if one believes in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, then who has the stronger base?
Sanpitch Posted December 17, 2019 Author Posted December 17, 2019 16 minutes ago, pogi said: Your wife is JW and most of your relatives are Latter-day Saints, do you feel like the rope in a tug-o'-war? What religion do you belong to, if any? None
Sanpitch Posted December 17, 2019 Author Posted December 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, pogi said: A stronger base in a Bible that you don't believe in? This is a strange argument to make. ...and if one believes in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, then who has the stronger base? Depends on how much the member knows about what is in the books. And where to find it if they are asked about a certain doctrine or belief. JWs study the Bible constantly, wife can look up just about any scripture or belief in a minute or two.
carbon dioxide Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, Sanpitch said: I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions. Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith. There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources. The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit. My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs. What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims? The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud. But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud. The problem I have is every person is an individual and every individual has their own personal standards of what they consider evidence to back up a claim. This is why hung juries occur. All members of the jury hear the same evidence but they arrive at different conclusions because they look at things differently. I have seen more than sufficient evidence to validate my beliefs according the standards that I have set for myself. You most likely have a different standard. Demanding evidence or support that conforms to your standards might be difficult to do. If I asked you to prove something you believe to be true but prove it according to my standards, you might have a hard time. The best one can do is look at all the evidence and decide for yourself. We can't decide anything for you. That is your job. Edited December 17, 2019 by carbon dioxide
pogi Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: JWs study the Bible constantly, wife can look up just about any scripture or belief in a minute or two. Yep, they are very well educated in their beliefs and have a Biblical answer for just about everything. I have had the JW's over a few times, really nice people, we simply couldn't agree on interpretation of the Bible - obviously.
Sanpitch Posted December 17, 2019 Author Posted December 17, 2019 38 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: The problem I have is every person is an individual and every individual has their own personal standards of what they consider evidence to back up a claim. This is why hung juries occur. All members of the jury hear the same evidence but they arrive at different conclusions because they look at things differently. I have seen more than sufficient evidence to validate my beliefs according the standards that I have set for myself. You most likely have a different standard. Demanding evidence or support that conforms to your standards might be difficult to do. If I asked you to prove something you believe to be true but prove it according to my standards, you might have a hard time. The best one can do is look at all the evidence and decide for yourself. We can't decide anything for you. That is your job. Exactly, my belief is you usually find evidence for what you are looking for, JWs find a lot to critize other religions for and at times vice versa. This extends to many other subjects also.
Sanpitch Posted December 17, 2019 Author Posted December 17, 2019 My thoughts originally of this thread is that most everything came from Joseph Smith, one man. Most of the Standard Works came from one man Joseph Smith. That can be argued endlessly but the church doctrine depends mainly on one man. One man who tried to introduce polygamy and married 14 - 15 year old and other men's wife.
InCognitus Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: My thoughts originally of this thread is that most everything came from Joseph Smith, one man. Most of the Standard Works came from one man Joseph Smith. That can be argued endlessly but the church doctrine depends mainly on one man. One man who tried to introduce polygamy and married 14 - 15 year old and other men's wife. You could say that about any of the dispensations. With Judaism, everything came from God to Moses, one man. The law came from one man, Moses. It can be argued endlessly that all of the doctrines of Judaism came from one man, Moses. But then you had people who witnessed the miracles of crossing the sea. You had Moses preparing the people to go up to Mount Sinai to see God, and they actually saw God. There were other witnesses to what Moses received from God. And other prophets followed, and they received revelations that affirmed what Moses had established. With New Testament Christianity, everything came from Jesus, one man. It can be argued endlessly that all the doctrines of Christianity came from this one man. But then you had people who witnessed the miracles and who saw the resurrected Jesus. You had apostles and prophets in the New Testament church who either witnessed what Jesus did, or received revelation from Jesus about how to lead the church. They received revelations and testified about what Jesus did. With the restored Church of Jesus Christ in the latter-days, everything came from God to Joseph Smith, one man. Most of the Standard Works came from God to one man Joseph Smith. But then you have other witnesses who participated in the revelations. You have the three witnesses who saw the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and they saw the angel of God and heard the voice of God. You have the eight witnesses who handled the plates. You have Oliver Cowdery who was there when heavenly messengers restored the priesthood. You have Sidney Rigdon who was with Joseph and they both saw Jesus Christ. You have people who witnessed miracles and saw angels of God, all affirming the restoration of the gospel and confirming what Joseph Smith restored. And you have other prophets and apostles that followed, and they received revelation and affirmed what God restored through Joseph Smith. I think I see a pattern here. Do you? 3
pogi Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 51 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: My thoughts originally of this thread is that most everything came from Joseph Smith, one man. Most of the Standard Works came from one man Joseph Smith. That can be argued endlessly but the church doctrine depends mainly on one man. A strong testimony of his mantle! I’d like to see you bury your head in a dark hat and dictate a book of scripture in on par with the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith was only 38 when he died, and yet look at all he accomplished, including building Nauvoo from a swamp! What had you accomplished at 38? Or you you still a young whipper snapper? 1
Sanpitch Posted December 18, 2019 Author Posted December 18, 2019 Well I was a young whipper snapper just 44 years ago. I produced four kids with a little help of the wife before the age of 33.
Tacenda Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 2 hours ago, pogi said: Your wife is JW and most of your relatives are Latter-day Saints, do you feel like the rope in a tug-o'-war? What religion do you belong to, if any? That would be my relatives as well. My grandmother is his mom's sister. They are very devout LDS and grew up as next door neighbors. I hope Sanpitch doesn't mind I said so, we actually met on this board. So I know of what I speak as far as how devout they are.
InCognitus Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 I have more thoughts on Mormonism and the Bible... From my point of view It seems that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes the Bible more realistically than any other church. By that I don't mean that we take everything in the Bible literally (there are multiple genres of writing in the Bible, and it would be foolish to treat every genre the same), but rather we understand the Bible to be showing a pattern of how God works with mankind. It is real to us. It's not just stories about how God used to do things, it is how God works with real people in all times. And the Bible says that God does not change. It is a pattern that is ongoing. God spoke to his apostles and prophets in the Bible, and He speaks to his apostles and prophets today. And as was noted earlier in this thread, the Bible affirms rather well some unique latter-day saint doctrines, such as: God is the God of gods Men become gods (i.e. sit with God in his throne and are partakers of the divine nature). Men are the very "genos" of God (same kind of being, his offspring). God is the Father of our spirits Temple covenant themes and emphasis on the temple all through the Bible The gospel is preached to the spirits of men between death and the resurrection Work for the dead (baptism for the dead) An apostasy, or falling away from the church was prophesied by the apostles and prophets The organization of Christ's church includes the leadership of living apostles and prophets, and that organization is intended to continue until all come to a unity of the faith The importance of following the God appointed leaders of the church There are greater and lesser rewards in heaven, and varying degrees of damnation In addition to the above, there are some notable doctrines that the Bible does NOT teach, such as: The idea of Sola Scriptura (the Bible is the sole source of authority for Christian faith and practice) The idea that God's word is limited to the 66 books we call the Bible But that's a start, there are probably several others I've forgotten to mention. 2
Sanpitch Posted December 18, 2019 Author Posted December 18, 2019 12 hours ago, Tacenda said: That would be my relatives as well. My grandmother is his mom's sister. They are very devout LDS and grew up as next door neighbors. I hope Sanpitch doesn't mind I said so, we actually met on this board. So I know of what I speak as far as how devout they are. However the older generation are all dead. Hi Tacenda, good to hear from you.
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