New conversion therapy bill gets OK from Church

[JAHS]

Utah governor proposes new conversion therapy rule, supported by LGBT advocates and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

A new conversion therapy rule proposed by Gov. Gary Herbert has the support of both LGBT advocacy groups and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Herbert has directed the Utah Division of Occupational and Professional Licensing to file a new rule banning conversion therapy for minors, the governor’s office said Tuesday night. The new rule will use language from a House bill that did not pass in the 2019 legislative session.

How best to address the practice of conversion therapy in Utah — and whether stakeholders would be able to find enough common ground to address it at all — is a question the state has grappled with in recent years. But with Tuesday’s announcement, it appears some agreement has been reached.

“I have learned much through this process,” Herbert said in a statement Tuesday. “The stories of youth who have endured these so-called therapies are heart rending, and I’m grateful that we have found a way forward that will ban conversion therapy forever in our state.”

RELATED

'We don't want to lose any of you': Utah legislators unveil bill banning conversion therapy for gay teens, hoping to prevent suicides
Conversion therapy rule draws statement of opposition from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
'An enormous misunderstanding': The real reason the governor changed his support on the conversion therapy ban bill
An earlier proposed licensing rule to address the issue — also crafted at the request of the governor after the House bill failed to pass — was opposed by the church on the grounds that it did not protect therapists who are parents, grandparents, or religious leaders from losing their license if they give spiritual, religiously based counsel.

HB399, which was not opposed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, did include those protections. The bill, which resembled similar laws passed in 16 other states, would have made it illegal for licensed therapists and health professionals to attempt to change or “fix” a minor’s sexual orientation or gender identity.

 

[Calm]

Looks like the rule will be published on Dec 15.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GovHerbert/status/1199515593432387584/photo/1

 

[Robert F. Smith]

I like Gov Herbert.  The guy actually listens to both sides and provides vehicles for compromise -- which is the heart and soul of democracy.

[snowflake]

Does this bill address gender dysphoria? 

[provoman]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I like Gov Herbert.  The guy actually listens to both sides and provides vehicles for compromise -- which is the heart and soul of democracy.

What are you serious?

In March 2019, a conversion therapy bill in the State Legislature was expected to be passed - LDS Church did not object, LGBT advocates supported it.

But Herbert expressed support for a substitute bill brought in a another State Rep. This substitute bill lead to such disarray that the original sponsor of the ban - Craig Hall - withdrew his support. 

Should we hold Herbert's support of substitute bill as contributing to the current mess Utah is in about conversion therapy.  The Deseretnews article says that language for the new rule is taken from the HB399 sponsored by Craig Hall - this is the same HB399 that was expected to become LAW until the substitute bill was introduced which Herbert supported.

Edited November 27, 2019 by provoman

[provoman]

33 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Does this bill address gender dysphoria? 

An important distinction needs to be made

It is an Administrative Rule, not a Bill.

[bsjkki]

I’m happy the state of Utah could work this out.

[Ahab]

13 hours ago, JAHS said:

An earlier proposed licensing rule to address the issue — also crafted at the request of the governor after the House bill failed to pass — was opposed by the church on the grounds that it did not protect therapists who are parents, grandparents, or religious leaders from losing their license if they give spiritual, religiously based counsel.

HB399, which was not opposed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, did include those protections. The bill, which resembled similar laws passed in 16 other states, would have made it illegal for licensed therapists and health professionals to attempt to change or “fix” a minor’s sexual orientation or gender identity.

 

So in Utah only parents, grandparents, or religious leaders will legally be allowed to talk to people about changing their sexual orientation or gender identity?  Being a "friend" to someone and talking about that would be illegal?

How much would I have to pay, as a legal penalty, if I decided to talk to a friend about this?  Maybe my friends and I could work out an arrangement agreeing that if we did talk about it they would pay my fine. Then I suppose everything would be okay.

[provoman]

26 minutes ago, Ahab said:

So in Utah only parents, grandparents, or religious leaders will legally be allowed to talk to people about changing their sexual orientation or gender identity?  Being a "friend" to someone and talking about that would be illegal?

How much would I have to pay, as a legal penalty, if I decided to talk to a friend about this?  Maybe my friends and I could work out an arrangement agreeing that if we did talk about it they would pay my fine. Then I suppose everything would be okay.

From my understanding, this is a licensing rule and only applies to designated licensed individuals.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, provoman said:

From my understanding, this is a licensing rule and only applies to designated licensed individuals.

Oh, okay.  Then i suppose I don't need to be concerned about this because I give my counsel freely without charging any money for it and without obtaining any kind of a license, at all, to do it.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ahab

[pogi]

59 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Oh, okay.  Then i suppose I don't need to be concerned about this because I give my counsel freely without charging any money for it and without obtaining any kind of a license, at all, to do it.

It may not be illegal, but I recommend that you not talk to teenagers about changing their sexual identity and/or orientation.  There is a reason it is illegal for licensed professionals to do it.   

Edited November 27, 2019 by pogi

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

It may not be illegal, but I recommend that you not talk to teenagers about changing their sexual identity and/or orientation.  There is a reason it is illegal.   

This comment made me think of something that just happened the other day. A sub in the school district asked the students to tell what they were thankful for and so each began to do that. Then she came to a boy and he mentioned how thankful he was that his two dad's were able to adopt another child. Well this inept sub went into a lecture on how wrong SSM was and pretty much bullied the child. Two female students went to the principal, maybe during recess, and told on this sub. The principal was so upset about it that they then escorted that sub out of the school that day. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

So in Utah only parents, grandparents, or religious leaders will legally be allowed to talk to people about changing their sexual orientation or gender identity?  Being a "friend" to someone and talking about that would be illegal?

How much would I have to pay, as a legal penalty, if I decided to talk to a friend about this?  Maybe my friends and I could work out an arrangement agreeing that if we did talk about it they would pay my fine. Then I suppose everything would be okay.

This doesn't apply to you, Ahab, unless you are a professional therapist.  Any ordinary person can speak to anybody else about their condition.  It's called Freedom of Speech.  This bill only deals with professional responsibility toward minors.  It is an effort to prevent teen suicide.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, provoman said:

What are you serious?

In March 2019, a conversion therapy bill in the State Legislature was expected to be passed - LDS Church did not object, LGBT advocates supported it.

But Herbert expressed support for a substitute bill brought in a another State Rep. This substitute bill lead to such disarray that the original sponsor of the ban - Craig Hall - withdrew his support. 

Should we hold Herbert's support of substitute bill as contributing to the current mess Utah is in about conversion therapy.  The Deseretnews article says that language for the new rule is taken from the HB399 sponsored by Craig Hall - this is the same HB399 that was expected to become LAW until the substitute bill was introduced which Herbert supported.

I'm just glad that we now have an agree-upon bill.  We'll see whether it is satisfactory with the passage of time.  Democracy may be messy, but what would you put in its place?

Edited November 27, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[snowflake]

5 hours ago, provoman said:

An important distinction needs to be made

It is an Administrative Rule, not a Bill.

Gender transition treatment for minors should be banned by the rule. 

[provoman]

deleted

Edited November 27, 2019 by provoman

[gopher]

Has anyone been successfully converted from any kind of therapy that attempts to change sexual orientation?  Or is there a 100% failure rate in all attempts?

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

It may not be illegal, but I recommend that you not talk to teenagers about changing their sexual identity and/or orientation.  There is a reason it is illegal for licensed professionals to do it.   

I would only consider talking to teenager's about it to try to "straighten" them out if I knew them or if they were family members I was familiar with.  I'm not interested in helping "straight" teenagers to become gay or lesbian or whatever else there is other than "straight".

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I would only consider talking to teenager's about it to try to "straighten" them out if I knew them or if they were family members I was familiar with.  I'm not interested in helping "straight" teenagers to become gay or lesbian or whatever else there is other than "straight".

That doesn't change my plea.

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, gopher said:

Has anyone been successfully converted from any kind of therapy that attempts to change sexual orientation?  Or is there a 100% failure rate in all attempts?

I was sexually oriented to both men and women when I was younger, and although I still consider men to be sexually attractive, or at least some of them, I no longer seek to have sexual relations with men.  Only women now for me, and even that is limited to only my wife.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, gopher said:

Has anyone been successfully converted from any kind of therapy that attempts to change sexual orientation?  Or is there a 100% failure rate in all attempts?

I know of a few very limited successes but they were cases were same sex attraction was not a real preference but the person was acting out on same sex impulses as a way of coping with abuse or trauma. I assume the reverse could also be treated (those who prefer same sex relationships who seek out opposite gender relationships due to trauma or abuse) but few seek treatment in that instance.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I would only consider talking to teenager's about it to try to "straighten" them out if I knew them or if they were family members I was familiar with.  I'm not interested in helping "straight" teenagers to become gay or lesbian or whatever else there is other than "straight".

Please do neither.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

That doesn't change my plea.

And your plea doesn't change my desire to straighten out anybody who I see needs to be straightened out.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Please do neither.

Prepare to be disappointed.

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

And your plea doesn't change my desire to straighten out anybody who I see needs to be straightened out.

I'd like to straighten you out. 

13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Prepare to be disappointed.

You too. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by pogi