New conversion therapy bill gets OK from Church

[california boy]

When the Church starts allowing a gay person to marry the person they love as long as they do not have any sexual relationships, then we can talk about whether those that are gay leave the church because they are sex addicts and are giving up their eternal blessings for immediate sex and selfish carnal desires.

I obviously thought a lot about this issue.  For me, it wasn't about not being allowed to have sex with someone of the same sex, it was about finding a companion to share this life with that I could actually connect with and love and cherish and who would love and cherish me as well.  Yeah pretty much the forefront of how humans are wired.  But that is not an option offered by the Church.  So whether one chooses to have sex or not with the person they find to share this life with is really immaterial.  Just the act of marrying someone of the same sex makes me an apostate and subject to excommunication whether there is sex or not.  It makes me ineligible for the possibility of sharing an eternal life together, ever.  Being gay damns you forever until you are magically straight.  And so far, no one has ever figured out how to make a gay person straight.

Are there really any straight people on this site who only married so they could have sex?  Are there any straight people on this site who would not be with the person they love unless there was sex involved?  

Or does this idea only apply to self centered sex addicted gay people.

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I'm not presuming to make a diagnosis in this case.  I'm raising questions about the social environment that doesn't bother to mention the existence of the question.  Answering the question is up to the individual, looking at their own circumstances and behavior, hopefully in light of the best information available, including reading the best books, consulting trained professionals, and even participating in meetings with addicts and hearing their life stories face to face to see whether it resonates.

But as far as the question of "authenticity" goes, in "A Mormon Rashomon" I noticed how often several different people in the stories invoked famous Polonius's line in Hamlet, "to thine own self be true."

While I still mention it in the published version, I originally had a longer discussion:

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I don't feel it has anything to do with putting self first. I'll ask you Kevin if you don't mind, like I've asked others, if you're a heterosexual man and told you shouldn't love women but only men, would you like to live with or marry a male and have sex with that male even though your desire is to be with a woman? That's not putting self first by saying what you would desire, it's almost inhumane to make someone who isn't attracted to a certain sex "be" with that sex! Do you somehow see what this means? If you put yourself in their shoes? Ed was told it was evil to have those feelings all of his life. So he did what others wanted him to do all those years, and I guess the older you get the more you want to be your true self. And the acceptance of homosexuals is probably why so many are coming out. I do feel sorry for Ed's wife/family though, they say divorce can be worse than a death in most cases. I hope they will all heal, and I hope his wife can find a companion one day.  

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tacenda

[Kevin Christensen]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't feel it has anything to do with putting self first. I'll ask you Kevin if you don't mind, like I've asked others, if you're a heterosexual man and told you shouldn't love women but only men, would you like to live with or marry a male and have sex with that male even though your desire is to be with a woman? That's not putting self first by saying what you would desire, it's almost inhumane to make someone who isn't attracted to a certain sex "be" with that sex! Do you somehow see what this means? If you put yourself in their shoes? Ed was told it was evil to have those feelings all of his life. So he did what others wanted him to do all those years, and I guess the older you get the more you want to be your true self. And the acceptance of homosexuals is probably why so many are coming out. I do feel sorry for Ed's wife/family though, they say divorce can be worse than a death in most cases. I hope they will all heal, and I hope his wife can find a companion one day.  

So, does the same reasoning apply if I decide my wife just doesn't do it for me anymore?  Perhaps the years have taken their toll in one way or the other.  Or I met someone, or just imagined that I could do better?  And my society is oppressive and cruel because they say such feelings for someone other than the mother of my children are unnatural and/or evil, and they don't accept and enable me and encourage to follow my bliss where ever it takes me?  Do different rules apply in that case?  Where sex addiction enters in, orientation is not the point.  The issue of sex addiction addresses the question of priority, rather than orientation.  What is the source of my first and great commandment?  God, or lust?  What shall I sacrifice when there is a conflict between my desire and my responsibility?  And what happens if I have the real option, through recovery, to heal the excess priority for lust, rather than trying to live in a state of perpetual frustration and bitterness and resentment while trying to suppress or deny it?  Which path more authentically involves being true to my real eternal self?

I have a brother and a best friend whose wives left them for series of lesbian relationships, and have seen the consequences over decades.  After more than a decade in the lifestyle, one of the women is back in a temple marriage.  The other is not.  Life is complicated.  One size may not fit all.  Self-examination helps us find what life is worth living, what sacrifices are worth making, and even how some sacrifices and efforts lead to lighter burdens.  If you watch It's a Wonderful Life this year, pay attention to what makes the difference for the George Bailey whose focus on his personal frustrations makes his life a living hell and his existence a waste of life, and the George Bailey who considers the significance of his relationships, and who can say, "Isn't it wonderful? I'm going to jail!"

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited December 12, 2019 by Kevin Christensen

[Ahab]

17 hours ago, california boy said:

When the Church starts allowing a gay person to marry the person they love as long as they do not have any sexual relationships, then we can talk about whether those that are gay leave the church because they are sex addicts and are giving up their eternal blessings for immediate sex and selfish carnal desires.

Marriage is intended for opposite sex couples.   You can be friends with people of the same sex but you should not marry them or have sexual relations with them.  Even if it is legal.  That is what is wrong, sexually, just to set the record straight.

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I obviously thought a lot about this issue.  For me, it wasn't about not being allowed to have sex with someone of the same sex, it was about finding a companion to share this life with that I could actually connect with and love and cherish and who would love and cherish me as well.  Yeah pretty much the forefront of how humans are wired.  

 But you limited your search to only people of the same sex as you are.  You should have expanded your search to someone of the opposite sex.  Seems to me that you didn't give that option very much thought.  

 

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But that is not an option offered by the Church.  

Same sex?  Nope.  Opposite sex marriage relationships are highly encouraged, though.

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So whether one chooses to have sex or not with the person they find to share this life with is really immaterial.

Sex is material because one way is wrong/evil and the other way is good/the right way.

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Just the act of marrying someone of the same sex makes me an apostate and subject to excommunication whether there is sex or not.  

Marriage involves the actual union of two people, their physical union.  A sexual union.  Not just a union in name only, and not just people who live at the same address.  People who marry join with each other for the purpose of becoming one with each other.

If you just wanted to have a house mate or room mate share the same house as you and spend your money with you then you could have had that without getting  married.

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It makes me ineligible for the possibility of sharing an eternal life together, ever.  Being gay damns you forever until you are magically straight.  And so far, no one has ever figured out how to make a gay person straight.

When a gay person becomes straight they are no longer considered to be gay anymore. It's a catch 22 kind of thing.  I was gay, and bi too, which involves being both gay and straight, but I am now in an exclusive relationship with a woman which in some people's minds means I am not gay anymore.  But I still consider men to be sexually attractive, probably as much as you do.  I just don't act on those urges anymore.  This is what it is like when a gay person becomes straight.

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Are there really any straight people on this site who only married so they could have sex?  Are there any straight people on this site who would not be with the person they love unless there was sex involved?  

Or does this idea only apply to self centered sex addicted gay people.

Sex is a big part of the allure, wanting to actually join with someone who we think would be good to be with. If there were no physical attraction between married couples, if it was only some type of a roommate or house mate situation, there would be a gaping big hole in the relationship with a strong desire to want to fill that somehow.  Very few people don't want any type of sexual relations with some other person.  We usually start with trying to get by with self gratification while our minds wander off into fantasy land, but at some point we want the actual physical union  of ourselves with some other person.  Sometimes people are so familiar with their own equipment that they just want to stick with that and find someone of the same sex to have sexual relations with, but the majority of us want someone of the opposite sex to join with.  You seem to be most comfortable with using only your own type of equipment, but there are better things out there which you will never experience if you stick to only those of the same sex as you are.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ahab

[california boy]

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Marriage is intended for opposite sex couples.   You can be friends with people of the same sex but you should not marry them or have sexual relations with them.  Even if it is legal.  That is what is wrong, sexually, just to set the record straight.

Marriage is a ceremony where one commits themselves to another person to love honor and cherish for the rest of their lives.  The church has chosen to make that commitment exclusive.  Which is fine, but they can't define marriage for the rest of the world.

 

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 But you limited your search to only people of the same sex as you are.  You should have expanded your search to someone of the opposite sex.  Seems to me that you didn't give that option very much thought.  

Are you serious?  I was married for over 20 years.  Still gay.  I am not bisexual.  And once again your self judgement is totally wrong.

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 

Same sex?  Nope.  Opposite sex marriage relationships are highly encouraged, though.

Sex is material because one way is wrong/evil and the other way is good/the right way.

Marriage involves the actual union of two people, their physical union.  A sexual union.  Not just a union in name only, and not just people who live at the same address.  People who marry join with each other for the purpose of becoming one with each other.

Not all marriages are based around sex.  And few people who have been married for a while believe sex is the most important part of their marriage.  

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If you just wanted to have a house mate or room mate share the same house as you and spend your money with you then you could have had that without getting  married.

Actually, I asked my bishop if it would be ok for me to have a room mate who was male.  He told me it wouldn't be appropriate.  So I asked him if I could have a room mate what was female.  He said that would not be appropriate either.  His counsel?  For me to live alone, by myself, for the rest of my life simply because I was gay.  

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

When a gay person becomes straight they are no longer considered to be gay anymore. It's a catch 22 kind of thing.  I was gay, and bi too, which involves being both gay and straight, but I am now in an exclusive relationship with a woman which in some people's minds means I am not gay anymore.  But I still consider men to be sexually attractive, probably as much as you do.  I just don't act on those urges anymore.  This is what it is like when a gay person becomes straight.

You do realize you can't be gay and bi.  You were bi.  And of course you could choose to find happiness to a woman.  It was one of two choices.  Two choices, not one choice.

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Sex is a big part of the allure, wanting to actually join with someone who we think would be good to be with. If there were no physical attraction between married couples, if it was only some type of a roommate or house mate situation, there would be a gaping big hole in the relationship with a strong desire to want to fill that somehow.  Very few people don't want any type of sexual relations with some other person.  We usually start with trying to get by with self gratification while our minds wander off into fantasy land, but at some point we want the actual physical union  of ourselves with some other person.  Sometimes people are so familiar with their own equipment that they just want to stick with that and find someone of the same sex to have sexual relations with, but the majority of us want someone of the opposite sex to join with.  You seem to be most comfortable with using only your own type of equipment, but there are better things out there which you will never experience if you stick to only those of the same sex as you are.

Hence, I am now with someone I love and am completely devoted to.

[Ahab]

21 minutes ago, california boy said:

Marriage is a ceremony where one commits themselves to another person to love honor and cherish for the rest of their lives.  The church has chosen to make that commitment exclusive.  Which is fine, but they can't define marriage for the rest of the world.

No, marriage is not a ceremony.  There is a ceremony which officially recognizes a marriage, usually before the consummation of that marriage, sometimes after, but that ceremony is not the marriage.  It is only an official recognition of a marriage.

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Are you serious?  I was married for over 20 years.  Still gay.  I am not bisexual.  And once again your self judgement is totally wrong.

Oops.  Okay.  I forgot that detail about you. So you are or were bi, too, I suppose.  Or did you never ever enjoy having sexual relations with your wife when you were married to a woman?  I would find it very hard to believe that you didn't ever enjoy that.  

So something went wrong and then you thought something like: Well, that didn't work out very well, and since I've wanted to try it with a man for a while now I'll give that a go and see what happens ???=

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Not all marriages are based around sex.  And few people who have been married for a while believe sex is the most important part of their marriage.  

It is a big part of the allure for you, though, isn't it?  Or do you never have or never enjoy having sexual relations with a man who you now call your "husband" ?

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Actually, I asked my bishop if it would be ok for me to have a room mate who was male.  He told me it wouldn't be appropriate.  So I asked him if I could have a room mate what was female.  He said that would not be appropriate either.  His counsel?  For me to live alone, by myself, for the rest of my life simply because I was gay.  

Yeah,, they really do need some more training on how to handle these kinds of issues.  Or maybe he knows more about you personally than I do.

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You do realize you can't be gay and bi.  You were bi.  And of course you could choose to find happiness to a woman.  It was one of two choices.  Two choices, not one choice.

Bi includes being gay, and you can deny that is true if you want to.  As someone who is, or was, I am telling you what it is like.

Now that I see you as bi too, or that you at least were, I think you should have given it a go with another woman rather than just totally writing them off.  There are all kinds of women and if you wanted one who was more like a man you could have found one.

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Hence, I am now with someone I love and am completely devoted to.

Yep, but in a same sex relationship there are a lot of good things that you will  not get to experience in the future as long as you are not married to someone of the opposite sex.  I think that is sad  But you can enjoy what you have as well as you can for as long as you can.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ahab

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Oops.  Okay.  I forgot that detail about you. So you were bi, too, I suppose.  Or did you never ever enjoy having sexual relations with your wife when you were married to a woman?  I would find it very hard to believe that you didn't ever enjoy that.  

Can you just stop with the crossexamining of another about his sex life and then acting as if you know better than he how he felt?  It is none of your business.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Calm

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Can you just stop with the crossexamining of another about his sex life and then acting as if you know better than he how he felt?  It is none of your business.

You are trying to correct me now.  What is the difference?

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You are trying to correct me now.  What is the difference?

I am not asking about your sex life or telling you how you should feel. 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

No, marriage is not a ceremony.  There is a ceremony which officially recognizes a marriage, usually before the consummation of that marriage, sometimes after, but that ceremony is not the marriage.  It is only an official recognition of a marriage.

Oops.  Okay.  I forgot that detail about you. So you are or were bi, too, I suppose.  Or did you never ever enjoy having sexual relations with your wife when you were married to a woman?  I would find it very hard to believe that you didn't ever enjoy that.  

So something went wrong and then you thought something like: Well, that didn't work out very well, and since I've wanted to try it with a man for a while now I'll give that a go and see what happens ???=

It is a big part of the allure for you, though, isn't it?  Or do you never have or never enjoy having sexual relations with a man who you now call your "husband" ?

Yeah,, they really do need some more training on how to handle these kinds of issues.  Or maybe he knows more about you personally than I do.

Bi includes being gay, and you can deny that is true if you want to.  As someone who is, or was, I am telling you what it is like.

Now that I see you as bi too, or that you at least were, I think you should have given it a go with another woman rather than just totally writing them off.  There are all kinds of women and if you wanted one who was more like a man you could have found one.

Yep, but in a same sex relationship there are a lot of good things that you will  not get to experience in the future as long as you are not married to someone of the opposite sex.  I think that is sad  But you can enjoy what you have as well as you can for as long as you can.

You honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  You just make up assumptions about people and then based on your assumptions, precede to fix a problem that never existed.  

 

AND I AM NOT BI, I AM GAY.  I have never been bi.  I have never been attract to women.  I am only attracted to men.  Jeeze.

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not asking about your sex life or telling you how you should feel. 

So you're not as inquisitive and outspoken as I am?  Why aren't you? Why don't you want to try to do more to help california boy?

What I think you are doing is telling me you think I am doing something you think I should not be doing, even if you are not telling me how you think I should feel about you telling me that.  

Consider what I am saying to california boy as conversion therapy.  I am not a licensed therapist so the conversion therapy rule the Church supports does not apply to me.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

You honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  You just make up assumptions about people and then based on your assumptions, precede to fix a problem that never existed.  

 

AND I AM NOT BI, I AM GAY.  I have never been bi.  I have never been attract to women.  I am only attracted to men.  Jeeze.

You said you were married to a woman for 20 years.   Don't expect me to believe you never enjoyed having sex with your wife when you were married to her.

[Calm]

Nvm

Edited December 12, 2019 by Calm

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You said you were married to a woman for 20 years.   Don't expect me to believe you never enjoyed having sex with your wife when you were married to her.

If being gay or being married was only about sex, or even the most important thing about being gay or married, then you would have a point.

Sex is not even in the top 5 reasons why I want to be in a relationship   And I know this might be strange to you, but when I do have sex, I want some kind of emotional connection.  Being married to a woman never gave me that emotional connection.

I do appreciate you trying to understand more about how I feel about these issues, but maybe we could leave the issue of sex since I have tried to make it perfectly clear that sex has nothing to do with what we have been talking about.  If you don't understand what I have said, then it is probably because you haven't carefully read my answers and thought about what I have said.

If you would like to explore the role sex plays in a relationship,, it is probably best to open up another thread. Though I don't think I have much more to say on the subject.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

If being gay or being married was only about sex, or even the most important thing about being gay or married, then you would have a point.

Sex is not even in the top 5 reasons why I want to be in a relationship   And I know this might be strange to you, but when I do have sex, I want some kind of emotional connection.  Being married to a woman never gave me that emotional connection.

I do appreciate you trying to understand more about how I feel about these issues, but maybe we could leave the issue of sex since I have tried to make it perfectly clear that sex has nothing to do with what we have been talking about.  If you don't understand what I have said, then it is probably because you haven't carefully read my answers and thought about what I have said.

If you would like to explore the role sex plays in a relationship,, it is probably best to open up another thread. Though I don't think I have much more to say on the subject.

I'm not going to keep going at this but I do want to say that, what I have highlighted, was my point.  That is why most of us have sex with whoever we have sex with.  It's not just a physical thing but an emotional thing as well.  Even for people who only want it a little bit at a time.

Anyway, I hope you know I do have your best interest at heart as I talk with you about these things.  As misguided as you may believe I am, my main intent is to try to help you to have more joy and happiness in your life and what I say is based on what I know and believe is best for you. And your comments to me are welcome if you also have the same spirit motivating you to say what you say to me.  We can be wrong and still try to do our best to help each other.

 

[MustardSeed]

Del

Edited December 13, 2019 by MustardSeed

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, Ahab said:

So you're not as inquisitive and outspoken as I am?  Why aren't you? Why don't you want to try to do more to help california boy?

What I think you are doing is telling me you think I am doing something you think I should not be doing, even if you are not telling me how you think I should feel about you telling me that.  

Consider what I am saying to california boy as conversion therapy.  I am not a licensed therapist so the conversion therapy rule the Church supports does not apply to me.

[Tacenda]

On 12/12/2019 at 7:46 AM, Kevin Christensen said:

So, does the same reasoning apply if I decide my wife just doesn't do it for me anymore?  Perhaps the years have taken their toll in one way or the other.  Or I met someone, or just imagined that I could do better?  And my society is oppressive and cruel because they say such feelings for someone other than the mother of my children are unnatural and/or evil, and they don't accept and enable me and encourage to follow my bliss where ever it takes me?  Do different rules apply in that case?  Where sex addiction enters in, orientation is not the point.  The issue of sex addiction addresses the question of priority, rather than orientation.  What is the source of my first and great commandment?  God, or lust?  What shall I sacrifice when there is a conflict between my desire and my responsibility?  And what happens if I have the real option, through recovery, to heal the excess priority for lust, rather than trying to live in a state of perpetual frustration and bitterness and resentment while trying to suppress or deny it?  Which path more authentically involves being true to my real eternal self?

I have a brother and a best friend whose wives left them for series of lesbian relationships, and have seen the consequences over decades.  After more than a decade in the lifestyle, one of the women is back in a temple marriage.  The other is not.  Life is complicated.  One size may not fit all.  Self-examination helps us find what life is worth living, what sacrifices are worth making, and even how some sacrifices and efforts lead to lighter burdens.  If you watch It's a Wonderful Life this year, pay attention to what makes the difference for the George Bailey whose focus on his personal frustrations makes his life a living hell and his existence a waste of life, and the George Bailey who considers the significance of his relationships, and who can say, "Isn't it wonderful? I'm going to jail!"

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Some good points, but I have yet to hear back from someone on the question I asked. Do you remember? I asked what it would feel like if someone told you, that you shouldn't be attracted to your wife, or a female but should be attracted to someone of your same sex. How would that feel? That is how a gay person feels. Please answer, you would be the first to actually answer that on here, if you do. Can we narrow it down to just that scenario? 

I understand many do come back and toe the line. I believe that many that are gay, might come around, because the guilt is so strong. I wonder that about the lesbian you mention, that is back and going to the temple. I think of D. Todd Christopherson's brother, Tom. He left his boyfriend of many years to come back to the church. So he chose the church/gospel over his feelings. Is that what you mean about not being selfish? Well I guess I understand more where you're coming from. But if you wouldn't mind, I'd love for someone to answer the question I asked at the beginning of this post, if you wouldn't mind, I would love your response. Because this is how gays feel, I hope you let it sink in.