The New WoW Question

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

And yet, you issued the CFR 

(But ok...)

It’s just that I’m concerned about accuracy.  Critics of the Church of Jesus Christ seem to have a problem with that, and they need to be held accountable. A non-accusation accusation such as “didn’t Brigham Young do X?” or “don’t Mormons believe Satan is the brother of Jesus?” Is irresponsible. If you have a charge to make, look up the facts first and then substantiate it as you make it. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If it's a commandment of God, it should be followed. But there's really nothing indicating it IS a commandment. If it's a commandment of men, then it doesn't really matter if you strictly obey it or not (in a religious sense)

First of all how are we supposed to know the difference between the two?

The spirit.

And who am I to judge whether or not the spirit is really the spirit?

A man. In the end all scriptures written by men.

And who is God? A glorified man.

In my humble opinion we need to lose all these distinctions.

I remember my son at the age of 3 making a very astute comment about something. We praised him and asked him where he learned that

He said" My brain told me."

We all need to learn that principle.

[Scott Lloyd]

56 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My apologies.  I jumped to the conclusion from your scriptural reference about people requiring lesser laws due to their inability to keep higher ones, in the conversation about w.o.w  and colas, that you were choosing to live a more elevated level of righteousness.  

I’m glad to know you aren’t zealous.  I think zealousness is more unhealthy than cola, just my opinion. 

I didn’t cite such a scriptural reference. I think you are conflating me and my preference about cola with somebody else. 
 

For the record, I don’t like excessive zeal either — on either side of an issue. 

[Scott Lloyd]

39 minutes ago, california boy said:

Don't drag me into this.  I was just responding to the claim that the wineries in Southern Utah were only for sacramental wine.   That appears to not be true.  And indeed Brigham Young drank wine with his meals.

As far as the saloon goes, I was just asking if it was true that BY owned a saloon.  Either way, I really don't care.  I did find the history of alcohol that Calm linked to quite interesting and far different than what I was always lead to believe.

You’re already into this. You brought up the saloon and the distillery. 
 

By the way, the past tense of to lead is led — without the a. I think people get confused because the present and past tense of to read are spelled the same way but pronounced differently. 

[Ahab]

By the way, I recently tried the new Postum that is being made now and it isn't as good, in my opinion, as what was available before Kraft stopped selling it in 2007.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postum

Kraft discontinued production of Postum in 2007.^{[6][7][8][10]} In May 2012, Kraft sold the Postum trademark and trade secret to Eliza’s Quest Food, with Postum sold through the Postum.com website.^[11] As of January 2013, Eliza's Quest Food succeeded in returning Postum to many grocery stores across the United States and Canada.

So Kaffree Roma is now the hot drink of choice for me!  https://atlanticnaturalfoods.com/dima-portfolio/kaffree-roma/

 

[Teancum]

On 10/7/2019 at 6:41 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

From “True to the Faith,” a reference source published by the Church, in the entry on “Word of Wisdom”:

In the Word of Wisdom, the Lord commands us not to take the following substances into our bodies:
    Alcoholic drinks (see D&C 89:5–7).

    Tobacco (see D&C 89:8).

    Tea and coffee (see D&C 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks” refers to tea and coffee).

Anything harmful that people purposefully take into their bodies is not in harmony with the Word of Wisdom. This is especially true of illegal drugs, which can destroy those who become addicted to them. Stay entirely away from them. Do not experiment with them. The abuse of prescription drugs also leads to destructive addiction.

 

How about sugar, too much meat, eating to much and becoming obese?

Edited October 9, 2019 by Teancum

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How about sugar, to much meat, eating to much and becoming obese?

Channeling Scott-  "to" much meat should be  "too" much meat because... grammar.  

I have no other comment about your post but wanted to make sure you knew your error.

 

[etana]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How about sugar, to much meat, eating to much and becoming obese?

Don't forget too many bananas.

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

By the way, I recently tried the new Postum that is being made now and it isn't as good, in my opinion, as what was available before Kraft stopped selling it in 2007.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postum

Kraft discontinued production of Postum in 2007.^{[6][7][8][10]} In May 2012, Kraft sold the Postum trademark and trade secret to Eliza’s Quest Food, with Postum sold through the Postum.com website.^[11] As of January 2013, Eliza's Quest Food succeeded in returning Postum to many grocery stores across the United States and Canada.

So Kaffree Roma is now the hot drink of choice for me!  https://atlanticnaturalfoods.com/dima-portfolio/kaffree-roma/

 

Try Teeccino. Super good! My wife, concert, says it tastes as close as any substitute has been able to get! I love the stuff. You have to brew it but you can make nearly all the same stuff as coffee like Frappes and Cold Brew.

[Scott Lloyd]

48 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How about sugar, too much meat, eating to much and becoming obese?

What about them? 

[SettingDogStar]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What about them? 

The word of wisdomsays we should eat meat sparingly yet if I told my bishop I ate a big steak every single day, he’d laugh and move on. We focus for to much on certain aspects of the WoW for “judging worthiness” and then ignore the rest.

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Try Teeccino. Super good! My wife, concert, says it tastes as close as any substitute has been able to get! I love the stuff. You have to brew it but you can make nearly all the same stuff as coffee like Frappes and Cold Brew.

Interesting.  Thank you for the tip.  I notice that it's called a tea but looking further I see that it's an herbal tea and from what I can tell it doesn't contain any actual tea, or coffee.   The only down side is that I would have to brew it, and I like how Kaffree Roma is made in an instant.

I may still try it out, though.   I have a French Press and it wouldn't be too terribly difficult for me to make some.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

The word of wisdomsays we should eat meat sparingly yet if I told my bishop I ate a big steak every single day, he’d laugh and move on. We focus for to much on certain aspects of the WoW for “judging worthiness” and then ignore the rest.

There are certain aspects of Section 89 that are still merely advisory in nature, the counsel on meat consumption being one. 
 

Certain other elements — presumably the more urgent ones because of their greater potential to do harm — have been made more binding by being tied to eligibility for admission to the temple and to hold some callings. 
 

I’m OK with this. I don’t believe we need heavy-handed micro-managing on the amount of meat we consume. 

[SettingDogStar]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Interesting.  Thank you for the tip.  I notice that it's called a tea but looking further I see that it's an herbal tea and from what I can tell it doesn't contain any actual tea, or coffee.   The only down side is that I would have to brew it, and I like how Kaffree Roma is made in an instant.

I may still try it out, though.   I have a French Press and it wouldn't be too terribly difficult for me to make some.

You do have to brew it yes. The “tee” in teeccino isn’t for tea haha it’s technically An herbal tea I suppose, you just don’t steep it.

[SettingDogStar]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There are certain aspects of Section 89 that are still merely advisory in nature, the counsel on meat consumption being one. 
 

Certain other elements — presumably the more urgent ones because of their greater potential to do harm — have been made more binding by being tied to eligibility for admission to the temple and to hold some callings. 
 

I’m OK with this. I don’t believe we need heavy-handed micro-managing on the amount of meat we consume. 

And I would say the same in the drinks we choose, I suppose it’s all about perspective on this point. If you’re going to micromanage someone’s drinking because of scripture then you should do it with the whole revelation.

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

And I would say the same in the drinks we choose, I suppose it’s all about perspective on this point. If you’re going to micromanage someone’s drinking because of scripture then you should do it with the whole revelation.

Yeah, the church doesn't seem to have a very robust teaching about moderation. For example, when WoW was first being implemented as a worthiness issue for the temple, the goal was to keep 'drunkards" from getting recommends. Of course there's a huge difference from being an occasional social drinker and a drunk. Some things are just fine in moderation. But why call for moderation when you can ban it all together?  

Edited October 9, 2019 by HappyJackWagon

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I didn’t cite such a scriptural reference. I think you are conflating me and my preference about cola with somebody else. 
 

For the record, I don’t like excessive zeal either — on either side of an issue. 

Very well, I simply misunderstood your post then.  

[SettingDogStar]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yeah, the church doesn't seem to have a very robust teaching about moderation. For example, when WoW was first being implemented as a worthiness issue for the temple, the goal was to keep 'drunkards" from getting recommends. Of course there's a huge difference from being an occasional social drinker and a drunk. Some things are just fine in moderation. But why call for moderation when you can ban it all together?  

Haha literally had me laughing 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You’re already into this. You brought up the saloon and the distillery. 
 

By the way, the past tense of to lead is led — without the a. I think people get confused because the present and past tense of to read are spelled the same way but pronounced differently. 

Actually I only asked the question when Hamba quoted BY as asserting that all members should abstain from alcohol, tea, coffee, and tobacco..  This was my original post.

Quote

 

Didn't Brigham Young build a distillery at the mouth of Parley's Canyon and owned the first salon in SLC?  And I vaguely recall Brigham Young starting a vineyard to make wine in St George.  

Maybe we should lay all the cards on the table and see if things really match up.

 

After several dug into the issue, it appears while BY was telling the saints to not use alcohol, he built a distillery, owned a saloon, and was making wine for way more than just the sacrament as well as drinking a glass of wine with his meal.  All of these alcoholic beverages were sold at ZCMI.

All the cards have now been laid out on the table.  BY may have been preaching one message, but his personal actions were telling another story.

 

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

Actually I only asked the question when Hamba quoted BY as asserting that all members should abstain from alcohol, tea, coffee, and tobacco..  This was my original post.

After several dug into the issue, it appears while BY was telling the saints to not use alcohol, he built a distillery, owned a saloon, and was making wine for way more than just the sacrament as well as drinking a glass of wine with his meal.  All of these alcoholic beverages were sold at ZCMI.

All the cards have now been laid out on the table.  BY may have been preaching one message, but his personal actions were telling another story.

 

The FairMormon link Calm already provided explains the context for 19th century Word of Wisdom observation as well as the distillery

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Why_did_Brigham_Young_build_a_whiskey_distillery_in_Utah%3F

I'm not sure, taking things in context, how Brigham Young can be accused of hypocrisy.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by ksfisher

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Actually I only asked the question when Hamba quoted BY as asserting that all members should abstain from alcohol, tea, coffee, and tobacco..  This was my original post.

After several dug into the issue, it appears while BY was telling the saints to not use alcohol, he built a distillery, owned a saloon, and was making wine for way more than just the sacrament as well as drinking a glass of wine with his meal.  All of these alcoholic beverages were sold at ZCMI.

All the cards have now been laid out on the table.  BY may have been preaching one message, but his personal actions were telling another story.

 

OK, so I was right. You  did bring it up after all. I did not “drag [you] into this.” 

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, california boy said:

Actually I only asked the question when Hamba quoted BY as asserting that all members should abstain from alcohol, tea, coffee, and tobacco..  This was my original post.

After several dug into the issue, it appears while BY was telling the saints to not use alcohol, he built a distillery, owned a saloon, and was making wine for way more than just the sacrament as well as drinking a glass of wine with his meal.  All of these alcoholic beverages were sold at ZCMI.

All the cards have now been laid out on the table.  BY may have been preaching one message, but his personal actions were telling another story.

 

But.... it was only sold and consumed for medicinal use, right? 😂 😉

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s just that I’m concerned about accuracy.  Critics of the Church of Jesus Christ seem to have a problem with that, and they need to be held accountable. A non-accusation accusation such as “didn’t Brigham Young do X?” or “don’t Mormons believe Satan is the brother of Jesus?” Is irresponsible. If you have a charge to make, look up the facts first and then substantiate it as you make it. 

It wasn't a charge though, it was a question.  That is what we do on this board.  Ask questions to get other peoples views on various statements.  I was very interested in the article Calm linked as well as some of the other information that was posted.  If I hadn't asked the question, then I would not have known the answers that were provided.  The answer turned out to be way more than yes or no.  And hopefully, I was not the only one that learned a little more about how BY operated.

You are so defensive and take everything so personally.  You think everyone is a critic of the church that is searching for the facts.  This discussion has shed light on this issue. Is it now anti-Mormon to search for answers about the Church's past?.

[california boy]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The FairMormon link Calm already provided explains the context for 19th century Word of Wisdom observation as well as the distillery

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Why_did_Brigham_Young_build_a_whiskey_distillery_in_Utah%3F

I'm not sure, taking things in context, how Brigham Young can be accused of hypocrisy.

 

Has anyone accused Brigham Young as being a hypocrite?  I was interested in his business dealings in all alcohol including the wine industry.  It turns out they were making wine for far more than the sacrament which was first asserted.  And it appears that not all of the whisky being made was used for medicine unless you are willing to assert that the saloon Brigham Young owned was a hospital and Mark Twain was disinfecting a wound.

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

Has anyone accused Brigham Young as being a hypocrite?

That's what I understood this quote by you to mean:

"BY may have been preaching one message, but his personal actions were telling another story."

If I took this wrong I apologize.