california boy Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Calm said: I added info about the winery. Haven’t got to the saloon yet. Was getting sleepy finally and was thinking of signing off. If I can find it quickly, I will put up a link and then someone else can harvest it. If it takes longer, probably will have to wait till evening. Remind me if I forget. Added: Nothing with any detail to make it worth it. Later... No problem. Get some sleep. Way more important.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 hours ago, california boy said: So Brigham Young didn't own a salon in SLC? And he didn't start a winery in St George? Do you mean <saloon>? Why do you keep writing “salon”? They are not the same thing. CFR on the saloon. And I thought Calm already addressed wine production in St. George, saying it was intended for sacramental wine.
california boy Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Calm said: One possibility of intent is alcohol had very useful, medicinal purposes (rational) besides recreational drinking. Would have been very expensive to import just that amount and for just that use into the then more isolated country. ”When there was no whisky to be had here, and we needed it for rational purposes, I built a house to make it in. When the distillery was almost completed and in good working order, an army was heard of in our vicinity and I shut up the works I did not make a gallon of whisky at my works, because it came here in great quantities, more than was needed. I could have made thousands of dollars from my still, which has ever since been as dead property.” https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Why_did_Brigham_Young_build_a_whiskey_distillery_in_Utah%3F ”Brigham was prepared to produce a limited amount for such uses—the Saints were isolated in Utah and had to either produce or import everything they needed. He was not pleased, however, at the influx of whiskey and attendant over-use which accompanied the U.S. army.” As for the vineyard, it was meant to produce wine for the sacrament and a cash crop to be exported, not recreationally used locally. Didn’t work out to be so restrained, tithes in grapes and wine from private vine growers were paid to the point the Church became the biggest producer. Stronger policies and condemnations were passed down, but eventually they just got completely out of the business even for sacramental wine. The costs too high, benefits too low https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/003-74-84.pdf From the article you posted, it sounds like the saints had no problem using wine similarly to how it is used today. And it sounds like Brigham Young would go down there and also have a glass of wine with his meal. And evidently they were actively using wine until 1892. I also didn't realize there were so many wineries down there. I was unaware that they were using wine for the sacrament. Found that interesting. Thanks for the link.
california boy Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Do you mean <saloon>? Why do you keep writing “salon”? They are not the same thing. CFR on the saloon. And I thought Calm already addressed wine production in St. George, saying it was intended for sacramental wine. Thanks for the spelling correction. They did serve wine for the sacrament, but the Saints were drinking wine with their evening meals by the pitcher as well. And it was used for weddings, celebrations, dances. etc. Just like it is used today. Read the article Calm posted. There were a number of wineries down in St George, not much of it was going towards thee sacrament. According to the article Calm linked to Brigham Young would have a glass with his lunch. Here is another article about the liquor industry in Utah. From the article Quote During the late 1800s, Utah had a thriving liquor industry. LDS Church President Brigham Young had no qualms about producing or selling alcohol. He built a distillery at the mouth of Parley’s Canyon and owned Salt Lake City’s first saloon. In 1861, Young had a winery established in Toquerville, in southern Utah, and received frequent shipments of 40-gallon barrels of port for “medicinal and family use.” The Mormon-owned mercantile ZCMI sold beer, wine and liquor, while the Deseret News regularly advertised home-brewing equipment to its readers, as well as alcohol such as Kentucky Bourbon and Old Tom Gin. Edited October 9, 2019 by california boy
SettingDogStar Posted October 9, 2019 Author Posted October 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, california boy said: Thanks for the spelling correction. They did serve wine for the sacrament, but the Saints were drinking wine with their evening meals as well. And it was used for weddings, celebrations, dances. etc. Just like it is used today. Read the article Calm posted. There were a number of wineries down in St George, not much of it was going towards thee sacrament. According to the article Calm linked to Brigham Young would have a glass with his lunch. Here is another article about the liquor industry in Utah. From the article Dearest News advertising Home-brewing tools haha! That would be one heck of a ward activity!!
Scott Lloyd Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, california boy said: Thanks for the spelling correction. They did serve wine for the sacrament, but the Saints were drinking wine with their evening meals as well. And it was used for weddings, celebrations, dances. etc. Just like it is used today. Read the article Calm posted. There were a number of wineries down in St George, not much of it was going towards thee sacrament. According to the article Calm linked to Brigham Young would have a glass with his lunch. Here is another article about the liquor industry in Utah. From the article No documentation here about Brigham Young owning a saloon. Just a flat, unsourced assertion. Calm has already addressed the matter about whiskey and wine making in Utah. The Word of Wisdom did not come to be strictly enforced until later on in the Utah period. This is not news.
ALarson Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: No documentation here about Brigham Young owning a saloon. Just a flat, unsourced assertion. I've read that when they arrived in Salt Lake (Brigham Young and company), one of the wagons contained materials to build a distillery. I'll try to locate that, but I'm just going from memory. But it's written by several that BY built a distillery, but some may have called it a saloon too (?). I'm not sure how many years it was in business, but I do believe eventually all liquor was made and sold by nonmembers. Here's a quote where BY states it's ok for the older members to drink: Quote If the "old fogies" take a little tobacco, a little whisky, or a little tea and coffee, we wish you boys to let it alone, and let those have it who have long been accustomed to its use. It is far better for these my brethren, who are young and healthy, to avoid every injurious habit. There are a great many boys here who are in the habit of chewing tobacco, they should stop it, and take no more, they are better without it. Some may turn round and say, "Father, do you think so?" Yes, let the old folks have it, but you young, smart gentlemen, let it alone. - JoD 2:271: (Apr 8, 1855) Liquor was originally sold and distilled at the church's mercantile store too (Zions Co-operative Mercantile Institutes). I've seen a sign from there (copied) that stated: Quote "Wholesale Liquor Dealers and Rectifiers" Edited October 9, 2019 by ALarson 2
ALarson Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 54 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Do you mean <saloon>? Why do you keep writing “salon”? They are not the same thing. CFR on the saloon. I did a search (after I posted the info above) and found this: Quote Title Stout and Spirited: Utah's 19th Century Liquor Industry Description The surprisingly stout and spirited history of the liquor industry in 19th century Utah! During the late 1800s, Utah had a thriving liquor industry. LDS Church President Brigham Young had no qualms about producing or selling alcohol. He built a distillery at the mouth of Parley’s Canyon and owned Salt Lake City’s first saloon. In 1861, Young had a winery established in Toquerville, in southern Utah, and received frequent shipments of 40-gallon barrels of port for “medicinal and family use.” The Mormon-owned mercantile ZCMI sold beer, wine and liquor, while the Deseret News regularly advertised home-brewing equipment to its readers, as well as alcohol such as Kentucky Bourbon and Old Tom Gin. https://www.utahhumanities.org/stories/items/show/224 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, ALarson said: I've read that when they arrived in Salt Lake (Brigham Young and company), one of the wagons contained materials to build a distillery. I'll try to locate that, but I'm just going from memory. But it's written by several that BY built a distillery, but some may have called it a saloon too (?). I'm not sure how many years it was in business, but I do believe eventually all liquor was made and sold by nonmembers. Here's a quote where BY states it's ok for the older members to drink: Liquor was originally sold and distilled at the church's mercantile store too (Zions Co-operative Mercantile Institutes). I've seen a sign from there (copied) that stated: You don’t have to look for sources about the distillery. It has been established that there was one in the valley, and I’m not questioning it. And I’ve acknowledged that the Word of Wisdom came to be more rigidly enforced over time. My CFR pertained to Brigham Young owning a saloon. Edited October 9, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
ALarson Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: My CFR pertained to Brigham Young owning a saloon. I added that in my next post (after doing a search). http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72315-the-new-wow-question/?do=findComment&comment=1209936041 Quote LDS Church President Brigham Young had no qualms about producing or selling alcohol. He built a distillery at the mouth of Parley’s Canyon and owned Salt Lake City’s first saloon. https://www.utahhumanities.org/stories/items/show/224 Edited October 9, 2019 by ALarson
MustardSeed Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Imo, chosing not to drink cola thinking it’s Gods higher law looks like zealous behavior to me. Choosing not to drink cola because of the impact the caffeine has on the body looks like a personal decision that no one else needs to judge, nor adhere to. Edited October 9, 2019 by MustardSeed 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 22 minutes ago, ALarson said: I added that in my next post (after doing a search). http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72315-the-new-wow-question/?do=findComment&comment=1209936041 I still say the linked article lacks footnoting and sourcing, but I’m not interested in pursuing the matter.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Imo, chiding not to drink cola thinking it’s Gods higher law looks like zealous behavior to me. Choosing not to drink cola because of the impact the caffeine has on the body looks like a personal decision that no one else needs to judge, nor adhere to. Who here is “chiding not to drink cola thinking it’s God’s higher law”?
MiserereNobis Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I still say the linked article lacks footnoting and sourcing, but I’m not interested in pursuing the matter. It does list sources. But the problem is that it doesn't have in-text citations.
ALarson Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It does list sources. But the problem is that it doesn't have in-text citations. I've read this same information elsewhere. I'm not sure why this is such an issue. It's well known that early saints drank (including Joseph Smith) and that the Word of Wisdom teachings have evolved. I don't have an issue with Brigham Young owning a saloon in the early days of the church. I think he owned one back east as well (don't CFR me, as I'm again going from memory from my reading....I'll look for a source on that when I get some time if anyone is interested). (There was also originally a bar in the church owned Hotel Utah....) Here's a bit more I found too on this (with sources added): Quote On the way to Utah, Brigham Young counseled the Mormons to "make beer as a drink" (John D. Lee, p. 116). Historian Hurbert Howe Bancroft says that "the first bar-room in S.L. City, and the only one for years, was in the Salt Lake House, owned by President Young and Feramorz Little" (History of Utah, p. 540, footnote 44). Stanley P. Hirshon writes: In Utah the church dominated the liquor trade. In 1856 Caleb Green freighted six tons of tobacco, rum, whiskey, brandy, tea, and coffee across the plains for Young, and two years later The New York Times reported that the "principal drinking-saloon and gambling-room are in Salt Lake House, a building under the control of the Church and the immediate superintendency of Heber C. Kimball." ...Young tried his best to rid himself of rival brewers (The Lion of the Lord, p. 285). Edited October 9, 2019 by ALarson 3
MustardSeed Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 45 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Who here is “chiding not to drink cola thinking it’s God’s higher law”? Typo. Meant to say choosing.
ALarson Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I still say the linked article lacks footnoting and sourcing, but I’m not interested in pursuing the matter. I think it's sourced, but here's this regarding the bar in the "Salt Lake House" (in addition to the other sources I posted for MiserereNobis): https://collections.lib.utah.edu/details?id=329032 Quote The first bar-room was opened in the Salt Lake House, owned by President Young and Feramorz Little; this was done chiefly to accom- odate the travelling public, and it was the only one only, in this city, for years." John Taylor, "Reminiscences, 1884, Edited October 9, 2019 by ALarson 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 54 minutes ago, ALarson said: I've read this same information elsewhere. I'm not sure why this is such an issue. It's well known that early saints drank (including Joseph Smith) and that the Word of Wisdom teachings have evolved. I don't have an issue with Brigham Young owning a saloon in the early days of the church. I think he owned one back east as well (don't CFR me, as I'm again going from memory from my reading....I'll look for a source on that when I get some time if anyone is interested). (There was also originally a bar in the church owned Hotel Utah....) It’s not an issue for me. Apparently it is for California Boy.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 27 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Typo. Meant to say choosing. OK. But the question remains: Who here is doing that? I avoid cola. But I don’t set myself up as living a higher law in so choosing. It just seems the more sensible choice to me.
ALarson Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It’s not an issue for me. Apparently it is for California Boy. And yet, you issued the CFR (But ok...) 1
HappyJackWagon Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 18 minutes ago, ALarson said: I think it's sourced, but here's this regarding the bar in the "Salt Lake House" (in addition to the other sources I posted for MiserereNobis): https://collections.lib.utah.edu/details?id=329032 There are a number of very good articles about the development of the WoW into the modern policy we now have. From abolitionist movements to Heber J Grant's family history of alcoholism that may have influenced his push towards greater uniformity of WoW adherence. There's a really great article that I can't find right now, but this one by Leonard Arrington about the economics behind adoption of WoW policy is interesting. https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/economic-interpretation-word-wisdom There is also good review of this in Charles Harrel's This is my Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology. The WoW has changed...a lot. If it's a commandment of God, it should be followed. But there's really nothing indicating it IS a commandment. If it's a commandment of men, then it doesn't really matter if you strictly obey it or not (in a religious sense) I recall a fun story about how a bottle of wine from the church's vineyard was placed in the cornerstone of the St George temple. Interesting stuff. If people are going to get upset by the facts that the WoW has changed dramatically, and that past members and leaders didn't obey it in the same way we do, then they will just have to be upset. It's documented in many places for anyone who cares to look. 2
MustardSeed Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: OK. But the question remains: Who here is doing that? I avoid cola. But I don’t set myself up as living a higher law in so choosing. It just seems the more sensible choice to me. My apologies. I jumped to the conclusion from your scriptural reference about people requiring lesser laws due to their inability to keep higher ones, in the conversation about w.o.w and colas, that you were choosing to live a more elevated level of righteousness. I’m glad to know you aren’t zealous. I think zealousness is more unhealthy than cola, just my opinion.
california boy Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It’s not an issue for me. Apparently it is for California Boy. Don't drag me into this. I was just responding to the claim that the wineries in Southern Utah were only for sacramental wine. That appears to not be true. And indeed Brigham Young drank wine with his meals. As far as the saloon goes, I was just asking if it was true that BY owned a saloon. Either way, I really don't care. I did find the history of alcohol that Calm linked to quite interesting and far different than what I was always lead to believe. 1
california boy Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: There are a number of very good articles about the development of the WoW into the modern policy we now have. From abolitionist movements to Heber J Grant's family history of alcoholism that may have influenced his push towards greater uniformity of WoW adherence. There's a really great article that I can't find right now, but this one by Leonard Arrington about the economics behind adoption of WoW policy is interesting. https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/economic-interpretation-word-wisdom There is also good review of this in Charles Harrel's This is my Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology. The WoW has changed...a lot. If it's a commandment of God, it should be followed. But there's really nothing indicating it IS a commandment. If it's a commandment of men, then it doesn't really matter if you strictly obey it or not (in a religious sense) I recall a fun story about how a bottle of wine from the church's vineyard was placed in the cornerstone of the St George temple. Interesting stuff. If people are going to get upset by the facts that the WoW has changed dramatically, and that past members and leaders didn't obey it in the same way we do, then they will just have to be upset. It's documented in many places for anyone who cares to look. Exactly. And I think it is important to remember that the WoW didn't change for 85 years. I also think it is important to remember the political climate that it was changed in with the whole temperance movement passing prohibition just a few short years later. There seems to be a trend in Mormonism that over time, a policy turns into a revelation. The Proclamation on the Family is a good example of that in our day. 2
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 On 10/7/2019 at 3:31 PM, JLHPROF said: Well let's see: 11. Do your keep the Word of Wisdom? vs. 11. Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom I don't see that it gives any more wiggle room than before. I suppose your personal understanding comes into play more under the new question. Some understand it to mean different things than others. Not everyone will understand the Word of Wisdom the same way, just like any other principle of the gospel. But I personally think "understand and obey" is more precise than "keep". Not to mention these are yes or no questions. The bottom line is we judge our own worthiness with that last question anyway. In my book they could go with that one question.
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