Thoughts on conference

[Avatar4321]

On 10/7/2019 at 11:18 AM, bluebell said:

It's probably coming.  Last spring Colorado lawmakers voted to mandate LGBTQ curriculum for K-12 public school students.  I'm not sure if the governor actually signed the bill into law or not.  

California is the most well-known state to making teaching LGBT issues mandatory in public schools, though from what i've read they only approved their first textbook on the subject in 2017 (though the law has been on the books since 2011) so it's slow going for most of them.  And I think that California is the only state where it's required in elementary schools, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

 

Was visiting a local school today. Walked in the front door and there is a lgbt display right up front.

9-10 years old.

Seems about right to me.

[Avatar4321]

On 10/7/2019 at 1:32 PM, changed said:

hy·poc·ri·sy

/həˈpäkrəsē/

Learn to pronounce

noun

 

1. the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

    

    

   the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs

   "a certain blind man sat by the wayside, begging...  have mercy on me... the crowd tried to silence the man, but he cried so much the more...."  I am moved by this... we can sense the man's distress, we can almost hear him shouting... we smile at his refusal to be silent ... the good sense that this man had in having spiritually sensitive people around him... it all hinges on a handful of anonymous women and men to identify Christ.  In matters of faith and conviction, it helps to direct your inquiry to those who actually have (faith)... shall the blind lead the blind?  shall they not both fall into the ditch?"

    

   one's own behavior does not conform

   4:20, he smirks, and has to pause as everyone in the audience is laughing about Sam Young, laughing about LGBT, laughing about racism against indigenous people, laughing at women, laughing about all those outside who have been deeply hurt by the church.

   https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/general-conference/2019/10/media/6092544519001?lang=eng

    

   The opposite of love is not hate it's indifference.  

    

   the church is filled with prideful hypocrites who laugh and mock those who are abused.  Like pharisees praising and applauding Judas, giving Judas money even.... everyone pays the apostles to tell them they are chosen, tell them they are special, while all others are hated by God, and to be laughed at.

    

    

    

    

do you realize your definition undercuts your accusation?

[Avatar4321]

On 10/7/2019 at 12:58 PM, rockpond said:

I agree with this.  As my wife and I discussed it on Saturday night, we were wondering why they don't have the Women's Session be 12 years old and up.  There should be a session where more adult topics can be discussed without primary age children present.

Yet weve had the same type of talks in general sessions where all ages are. What is the alternative now other than not talking about it at all? And is that reasonable?

[Avatar4321]

On 10/7/2019 at 2:59 PM, The Nehor said:

I am curious about these 8 year olds who have supposedly never heard of homosexuality because their parents have not told them about it yet. Are they all home schooled?

We home school and my daughter has heard about them just from TV.

Weve talked with her about it too. Have to even if it's simple understanding

[rockpond]

30 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Yet weve had the same type of talks in general sessions where all ages are. What is the alternative now other than not talking about it at all? And is that reasonable?

You seem to be working your way through the thread so you may get to my other statements about this.  I suggested the the women’s session be 11+ yo like the priesthood session and that more adult topics be confined to those two sessions. 

I think we’ve talked this one to death though so I may not respond to other posts/replies on this matter. 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Was visiting a local school today. Walked in the front door and there is a lgbt display right up front.

9-10 years old.

Seems about right to me.

What is an “lgbt display”?

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

Where I live in Utah we are between two temples, but our ward only gets 2 hours of youth baptism time for the entire year (that has to be split between the YM and YW).  The last time we tried to go without a reservation we waited for over three hours and each kid got to do 2 names (we left the temple at 9:30 at night and there were still kids in the waiting room, they hadn't even gotten to the recommend desk yet).  

And I've gone to the temple before and had to leave after two hours without getting to do anything because there were too many people.  There were so many people that they wouldn't all fit in the chapel (even standing along the walls).  They were lining them up down the hallway.  

In the temple where I serve, patrons who arrive for an endowment session are given a card with the session time printed on it. There is a finite number of cards for each session, so when a patron comes to the recommend desk and all the cards for the next session have been given out, he/she is offered a card for and invited to wait for the following session,  or to participate in one of the other ordinances such as initiatory work or sealing or baptisms or perhaps to come back later. 

This system seems to work pretty well, especially for a smaller temple such as ours.

I don't believe our temple accommodates reservations. But I can see how this would not work for a temple where some of the patrons must drive many hours to get there. 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

YM do have a theme. It's in section 84

That’s a heap o’ memorizing. It would take half the meeting to recite it every week.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

As he should be. It's a shame he has to be though. It seems that no matter what they teach concerning the Family that there are some who refuse to listen. Which means they repeat.

There’s this from Neal A. Maxwell in 1978....

Quote

But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions.

President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had “never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life” (CR, April 1941, p. 123). This is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ.....

Your discipleship may see the time come when religious convictions are heavily discounted. M. J. Sobran also observed, “A religious conviction is now a second-class conviction, expected to step deferentially to the back of the secular bus, and not to get uppity about it” (Human Life Review, Summer 1978, p. 58). This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain of people’s opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.

 

[Tacenda]

About temples. Are we to worship them? I just saw an unbelievable video of hundreds of LDS youth in a huge stadium singing and then bowing down to a miniature temple in Phildelphia for the celebration. They were all decked out in coordinated outfits and singing, "we'll sing and we'll shout" and they all gathered to the middle where the temple stood and then kneeled down to it and then out walks a newly married couple out of the miniature temple and then the youth all lift both their arms up in the air to praise them. 

This just blew my mind. IMO, whoever thought this was a good idea, I'm sad about it. It reeked idol worshiping. I'll get flack but I think most on here may agree if they've seen the video. I saw someone post it on FB. 

Has anyone else seen this?

[stemelbow]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There’s this from Neal A. Maxwell in 1978....

 

What a sad view this kind of quasi-"leaders are infallible" teaching that appears in the Church every once in a while.  It's too bad it comes just after the very long night of "racism preached as divinely mandated" the church attempted to emerge from.  If members in the Church, if "the world", which gets wide condemnation from the Church, weren't pressuring the Church to change for the good it's likely the leaders would have never taken up the question of racism to God (a struggle that went on for decades we are told before the views of "the world" prevailed).  I mean certainly the Church would be far more a defeated backwater if the change wasn't made before this Maxwell speech.  And it makes the appeal to say "This (never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life) is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked" sound empty and with made with a gaping blind spot.  It makes one wonder how many students caught on to that and pursued life with greater vitality and energy.  

Thanks for the quote it's a clear reminder to me how foolish it is to actually treat the church and its' leaders as the leaders often demand of the members.  Luckily most members find such teaching foolish for the most part and live a little more free.  

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

About temples. Are we to worship them? I just saw an unbelievable video of hundreds of LDS youth in a huge stadium singing and then bowing down to a miniature temple in Phildelphia for the celebration. They were all decked out in coordinated outfits and singing, "we'll sing and we'll shout" and they all gathered to the middle where the temple stood and then kneeled down to it and then out walks a newly married couple out of the miniature temple and then the youth all lift both their arms up in the air to praise them. 

This just blew my mind. IMO, whoever thought this was a good idea, I'm sad about it. It reeked idol worshiping. I'll get flack but I think most on here may agree if they've seen the video. I saw someone post it on FB. 

Has anyone else seen this?

Well, since the death of President Monson, the Church doesn’t do these “cultural events” in connection with temple dedications anymore.

Some of them may have been a bit cheesy, but I’m sure the locals were doing the best they could with homespun production and direction hearkening back to the days of the all-Church dance festivals of the sixties. They’re meant to be visually striking. 
 

I haven’t seen the clip in question, but reading between the lines, and having viewed one or two of these would-be visual spectacles, I’m guessing you and your Facebook friends are overreacting and reading things into it that weren’t intended. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well, since the death of President Monson, the Church doesn’t do these “cultural events” in connection with temple dedications anymore.

Some of them may have been a bit cheesy, but I’m sure the locals were doing the best they could with homespun production and direction hearkening back to the days of the all-Church dance festivals of the sixties. They’re meant to be visually striking. 
 

I haven’t seen the clip in question, but reading between the lines, and having viewed one or two of these would-be visual spectacles, I’m guessing you and your Facebook friends are overreacting and reading things into it that weren’t intended. 

It made me think back to many years ago when a stake president didn't like the relief society making the statues of the Christus because it was like idol worship. That's one man though. And this seemed so out of the norm in our church actually, the display of kneeling and raising the arms out in public like that. 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 10/11/2019 at 10:16 AM, Tacenda said:

It made me think back to many years ago when a stake president didn't like the relief society making the statues of the Christus because it was like idol worship. That's one man though. And this seemed so out of the norm in our church actually, the display of kneeling and raising the arms out in public like that. 

I’d say the stake president was off the rails. The Christus has been used repeatedly in the Church, most recently at the visitor center of the Rome Italy Temole, along with copies of the other 11 statues made by Thorvaldsen and depicting tha apostles of Jesus (excluding Judas). 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

What a sad view this kind of quasi-"leaders are infallible" teaching that appears in the Church every once in a while.  It's too bad it comes just after the very long night of "racism preached as divinely mandated" the church attempted to emerge from.  If members in the Church, if "the world", which gets wide condemnation from the Church, weren't pressuring the Church to change for the good it's likely the leaders would have never taken up the question of racism to God (a struggle that went on for decades we are told before the views of "the world" prevailed).  I mean certainly the Church would be far more a defeated backwater if the change wasn't made before this Maxwell speech.  And it makes the appeal to say "This (never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life) is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked" sound empty and with made with a gaping blind spot.  It makes one wonder how many students caught on to that and pursued life with greater vitality and energy.  

Thanks for the quote it's a clear reminder to me how foolish it is to actually treat the church and its' leaders as the leaders often demand of the members.  Luckily most members find such teaching foolish for the most part and live a little more free.  

Sounds like you’ve made your choice.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sounds like you’ve made your choice.

Give some credit to yourself.  SOunds like you made your choice too.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Give some credit to yourself.  SOunds like you made your choice too.  

Indeed. 

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

About temples. Are we to worship them? I just saw an unbelievable video of hundreds of LDS youth in a huge stadium singing and then bowing down to a miniature temple in Phildelphia for the celebration. They were all decked out in coordinated outfits and singing, "we'll sing and we'll shout" and they all gathered to the middle where the temple stood and then kneeled down to it and then out walks a newly married couple out of the miniature temple and then the youth all lift both their arms up in the air to praise them. 

This just blew my mind. IMO, whoever thought this was a good idea, I'm sad about it. It reeked idol worshiping. I'll get flack but I think most on here may agree if they've seen the video. I saw someone post it on FB. 

Has anyone else seen this?

Do you think the dance was meant to teach that we worship temples?  Perhaps one dance shouldn't be taken as representing all beliefs of members of the church.  Things need to be put in context.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

What a sad view this kind of quasi-"leaders are infallible" teaching that appears in the Church every once in a while.  It's too bad it comes just after the very long night of "racism preached as divinely mandated" the church attempted to emerge from.  If members in the Church, if "the world", which gets wide condemnation from the Church, weren't pressuring the Church to change for the good it's likely the leaders would have never taken up the question of racism to God (a struggle that went on for decades we are told before the views of "the world" prevailed).  I mean certainly the Church would be far more a defeated backwater if the change wasn't made before this Maxwell speech.  And it makes the appeal to say "This (never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life) is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked" sound empty and with made with a gaping blind spot.  It makes one wonder how many students caught on to that and pursued life with greater vitality and energy.  

Thanks for the quote it's a clear reminder to me how foolish it is to actually treat the church and its' leaders as the leaders often demand of the members.  Luckily most members find such teaching foolish for the most part and live a little more free.  

[stemelbow]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I'm sure that's the easiest of wishes for you to adopt.  If the Church stayed true to Brigham young's teaching of the ban.  that it wouldn't possibly be lifted until every child of God, who was not cursed, had received the priesthood and it's blessings, I'd wonder what the church would be today.  I'm guessing a bit less influential.  And perhaps even the Nehor wouldn't be defending it.  Well, perhaps--who knows with that guy.  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And this seemed so out of the norm in our church actually, the display of kneeling and raising the arms out in public like that. 

Then why is it concerning for you if you yourself realize we don’t worship temples? There are cultures who kneel and bow including raising of arms as a sign of respect. I see it all the time in the Asian media I watch, especially when they are making apologies. No hint there is any worship involved. 

Perhaps the choreographer had that kind of thing in mind. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Calm

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'm sure that's the easiest of wishes for you to adopt.  If the Church stayed true to Brigham young's teaching of the ban.  that it wouldn't possibly be lifted until every child of God, who was not cursed, had received the priesthood and it's blessings, I'd wonder what the church would be today.  I'm guessing a bit less influential.  And perhaps even the Nehor wouldn't be defending it.  Well, perhaps--who knows with that guy.  

Probably still would be. I was taught in my youth not to take the reasoning people use for commandments existing too seriously even when it comes from the apostles. Later I found an apostle teaching the same thing so I think I am good there.

[california boy]

On 10/7/2019 at 7:00 PM, rockpond said:

They did and he signed it.  And, to the best of my knowledge, our school district is still declining the funding that would require us to follow that law.  We have at least one member of our stake running for the school board with the intent of keeping it that way.  We'll see.

Just as we don't want the school district to determine when and what our children learn regarding adult topics, my wife would prefer not to have a church conference session force our hand regarding timing of when we have those discussions with our elementary school aged daughters.  My wife will think twice before bringing them to the women's session next year -- which is unfortunate.

And, with our school, we can meet with the principal and/or teachers at any time.  They are available to us by phone, email, and in person.  This is true with the school board as well.  I don't have any ability to communicate directly with President Oaks.

An 8-year-old girl went to her grandfather, who was working in the yard and asked him:

"Grandpa, what is a couple s*e*x?"

The grandfather was surprised that she would ask such a question, and embarrassed, but decided that if she's old enough to know to ask the question then she's old enough to get a straight answer.

Steeling himself to leave nothing out, he proceeded to tell her all about human reproduction and the joys and responsibilities that go along with it.

When he finished explaining, the little girl was looking at him with her mouth hanging open, eyes wide in amazement.

Seeing the look on her face, the grandfather asked her:

"Why did you ask this question, honey?"

The little girl replied:

 "Well, Grandma says to tell you that dinner will be ready in just a “couple sec's.”

[Scott Lloyd]

On 10/7/2019 at 11:45 AM, bluebell said:

The Women's Session is for all girls ages 8 and up.  That change happened a few years ago.

My understanding is that the priesthood session is for priesthood-age boys and men (used to be 12 and older; now they can be deacons in the year they turn 12). 
 

If, under the present system, the women’s session is intended to mirror the pattern for the priesthood session, and if people are going to get this spun up over the topics discussed, maybe the women’s session needs to go back to being for Young Women-age and older. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

On 10/11/2019 at 1:25 AM, Bernard Gui said:

That’s a heap o’ memorizing. It would take half the meeting to recite it every week.

If it’s verses 33-40, it’s not much lengthier than what the Young Women are to memorize. This is what youthful priesthood holders have traditionally memorized, at least from the time I was in my youth: 

“33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
“34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.
“35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
“37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
“38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
“39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.” 
 

Incidentally, if the power that women have in the priesthood is now being emphasized (and Deseret Book now has a bestseller with that theme in the title) perhaps Young Women should be memorizing these verses as well — or at least learning about them.