Thoughts on conference

[Jake Starkey]

Obviously not.  The Allred's are a small group in comparison to the LDS.  I wonder how many just stopped attending in Salt Lake valley because of the lifting of the ban.

 

[Bernard Gui]

49 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Obviously not.  The Allred's are a small group in comparison to the LDS.  I wonder how many just stopped attending in Salt Lake valley because of the lifting of the ban.

 

I have not met anyone who did. I have lots of friends and relatives in SLC and Provo and have lived in Illiinois, Australia, and Washington. I have never heard of any.

[Bernard Gui]

For what it's worth, from my daughter Bellalindissima who asked her FIL about Jack Starkey's claims.....

Quote

XXX says not at all. He said there may have been a few people here and there that took issue with it, but in all his traveling all over the south as an area authority, he ever once met someone who had left the church because of blacks getting the priesthood. I should say he also never heard any stories of anyone leaving the church because of the priesthood revelation.

XXX is a life-long Southerner and a highly respected fixture in the Church there since the late 60s. Bishop, stake president, mission president, temple president, area authority. 

Take it how you like.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Jake Starkey]

Thank you for the opinion of "a life-long Southerner and a highly respected fixture in the Church..."  I have been told differently.

Until any meaningful collection of data and narratives, that's where it must rest for now.

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Thank you for the opinion of "a life-long Southerner and a highly respected fixture in the Church..."  I have been told differently.

Until any meaningful collection of data and narratives, that's where it must rest for now.

I supplied my source as you demanded. "If I do, so do you."

Your turn. Or are you just happy to go with "I once heard someone say?"

Edited October 14, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Jake Starkey said:

My original was clearly formulated as my opinion and my sources were given.

Bernard Gui merely challenges my opinion on his unfounded grounds.  By that determination, his offer of proof was unfounded hearsay.

It's nothing more than someone did not like the idea of people leaving the church over the lifting of the ban.

The source on the AUB's membership increase linked those numbers directly to peoples' reactions here in the valley to the lifting of the ban.

My grounds are now founded with a reliable authority. AUB is not a reliable authority. Hearsay is no authority at all.

Reading your source more closely shows it does not say what you wish it said. The quotes above clearly show that.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Jake Starkey]

XXX is a narrative opinion founded in an actual personality.

IOW, he is no more reliable than the young missionary in Mississippi who had to tell his Mission President about the cement-filled sanctuary.

The one actual data point we have, the LDS who joined the AUB in Salt Lake Valley, reveals that some did join another denomination because of the lifting of the ban.

So we know it happened.  The issue remains how often, how many, and where did it happen.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Bernard Gui, you are attempting to put words in my mouth and are changing what you said.  You are not a mod: end of story.  I have asked the Mods for a ruling.

I just found this article on line that said the AUB's membership jumped because many LDS in Salt Lake valley could not abide the lifting of the ban.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/polygamy/2018/05/25/right-after-the-mormon-church-gave-blacks-the-priesthood-a-polygamous-offshoot-saw-its-ranks-grow/

Just for the sake of exactness, I don't see anything in the article saying where, geographically, the new AUB members came from.  This seems to be the relevant quote

"Researchers and people who belonged to the AUB in 1978 say the group saw its membership jump after the LDS Church ended the priesthood prohibition."

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Jake Starkey said:

XXX is a narrative opinion in founded in an actual personality.

IOW, he is no more reliable than the young missionary in Mississippi who had to tell his Mission President about the cement-filled sanctuary.

The one actual data point we have, the LDS who joined the AUB in Salt Lake Valley, reveals that some did join another denomination because of the lifting of the ban.

So we know it happened.  The issue remains how often, how many, and where did it happen.

And he is far more reliable eye-witness than your hearsay whoevers. First person observations from a person in a position to see the big picture in the South. Why do you shift it to SLC?

Oh. So now it's "some," not "many." Slowly, slowly, slowly, but surely we arrive at a reasonable statement. 

Your sources, please. When I asked for yours, you demanded I provide mine first. I did. Keep your word.

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

For what it's worth, from my daughter Bellalindissima who asked her FIL about Jack Starkey's claims.....

XXX is a life-long Southerner and a highly respected fixture in the Church there since the late 60s. Bishop, stake president, mission president, temple president, area authority. 

Take it how you like.

Served my mission in TN and KY from '91-'93.  I became aware of only one man you hadn't been back to church since the ban was lifted.  Other than that one, I wasn't acquainted with any other stories of it occurring.

[Jake Starkey]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

And he is far more reliable eye-witness than your hearsay whoevers. First person observations from a person in a position to see the big picture in the South. Why do you shift it to SLC?

Oh. So now it's "some," not "many." Slowly, slowly, slowly, but surely we arrive at a reasonable statement. 

Your sources, please. When I asked for yours, you demanded I provide mine first. I did. Keep your word.

 

No, the father in law is no more authoritative than my missionary and some/many others who have discussed this with me.  Why?  Because the readers are relying on you and me for validity and correctness, and neither of us have first hand knowledge.

In fact, though, by your standards, my info is far more acceptable than yours,  because I have some/many than your only one.

Your sources, please.  When I asked for yours, you gave me the father in law of some one.  I gave you  the missionary plus others.

You merely quarrel now because you are behind on offered material.

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Jake Starkey]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Served my mission in TN and KY from '91-'93.  I became aware of only one man you hadn't been back to church since the ban was lifted.  Other than that one, I wasn't acquainted with any other stories of it occurring.

Thank you for your input.  I will merely point out (1) you were not looking for this info so came by it incidentally, and (2) TN and KY are not part of the Lower South.

[ttribe]

30 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Thank you for your input.  I will merely point out (1) you were not looking for this info so came by it incidentally, and (2) TN and KY are not part of the Lower South.

[shrug]  Just providing my anecdotal input.  I'm not questioning your assertions; in fact, I'd be surprised if there weren't a measurable number of defections after the 1978 announcement.  From my experience on my mission a kind of unspoken segregation still existed amongst most churches out there...in each town, you pretty much knew where the black methodist church was and where there white one was, etc.  I had several black investigators express some amount of discomfort with attending LDS meetings insomuch as they still perceived it as a "white" church in their respective towns.  I'm not surprised that by 1991 very little tangible evidence of the fallout from the 1978 announcement still remained in terms of knowledge of members leaving over it, though.  We spent a lot of time trying to track down "inactives" and it was quite easy for people to disappear and become forgotten in those predominantly rural counties.

[Jake Starkey]

I apologize for my shortness.  What you write makes sense to me.  Yes, those who have not been in the rural south have no idea how segregated racially, economically, and geographically is the whole place.  My brother served a mission in a lower south region, and he told me later, "I don't understand how you lived in the South.  It drove me crazy though I loved what I did.  Finding people who did not want to be found was incredibly frustrating.  They could cook, though!"

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

, he is no more reliable than the young missionary in Mississippi who had to tell his Mission President about the cement-filled sanctuary

BG has given us background info on his source, he knows who he is, the relationship, etc. 

I can’t remember what context you provided. What the timing was when you learned (contemporary or years later), who the missionary was to you (internet acquaintance or fellow ward member or something else), etc. If you could provide such details for him and the others who shared the info with you (are they themselves still in the Church believing, for example or if they had negative viewpoints of the Church and thus more likely to present a favorable outlook vs interpreting their experiences in a negative way), it would help in comparing value. 

I tend to rate someone who would have seen stats of membership and activity of a larger area over someone with personal experience of one or two congregations.  

I wonder how many members were in the rural south at the time. If only a few hundred per state and the vast majority urban areas, even if 50% left, it likely wouldn’t make an impact in the state stats. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Calm

[Jake Starkey]

That's fine, Calm.  I rate what I have been told by others who lived there all their lives as valid.

That's fine by me.  If not for you, fine.

[Raingirl]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

BG has given us background info on his source, he knows who he is, the relationship, etc. 

I can’t remember what context you provided. What the timing was when you learned (contemporary or years later), who the missionary was to you (internet acquaintance or fellow ward member or something else), etc. If you could provide such details for him and the others who shared the info with you (are they themselves still in the Church believing, for example or if they had negative viewpoints of the Church and thus more likely to present a favorable outlook vs interpreting their experiences in a negative way), it would help in comparing value. 

I tend to rate someone who would have seen stats of membership and activity of a larger area over someone with personal experience of one or two congregations.  

I wonder how many members were in the rural south at the time. If only a few hundred per state and the vast majority urban areas, even if 50% left, it likely wouldn’t make an impact in the state stats. 

Not to mention absolutely no proof of the baptismal font that was supposedly rendered unusable.  Something like that - if it actually happened- would be common knowledge in the area. 

[Storm Rider]

21 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

You have not backed up your story yet demand I do?    You were witness to one branch and one district, while many people talked to me of their experiences after the ban.  Yes, you are guessing, nothing more.  You have trouble with words and meanings: I said the 'rural South' had losses and the urban areas generally did not.  You do not know of what you talk.

Jake - you made the claim. It is up to you to either support it with references or retract it. Read the rules. 

I am not sure you know what a District is. Do you understand how big a territory that covered in NW Florida and southern Alabama?  It is not Utah where wards and stakes include just a few blocks. You keep making this accusation, but you don't seem to have any knowledge about what you are discussing. 

Either provide references or retract your statement. It is not not personal, just the rules of this site. 

[Calm]

Just now, Raingirl said:

Not to mention absolutely no proof of the baptismal font that was supposedly rendered unusable.  Something like that - if it actually happened- would be common knowledge in the area. 

This is what I was thinking, it seems a story missionaries from that area at the very least would have shared.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have not met anyone who did. I have lots of friends and relatives in SLC and Provo and have lived in Illiinois, Australia, and Washington. I have never heard of any.

Lifelong resident on the Mormon corridor here in Utah, and I’ve not met any such people either. 

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Not to mention absolutely no proof of the baptismal font that was supposedly rendered unusable.  Something like that - if it actually happened- would be common knowledge in the area. 

That’s the thing I find most bizarre. As has been noted here, blacks could always be baptized; the lifting of the ban had no impact on that. 
 

And filling in the font would prevent baptisms of ANYBODY, including white children of record, not just blacks. 
 

The story has “urban legend” written all over it, perhaps originating from one or more sources outside the Church who didn’t understand that blacks could always be baptized. 
 

And a 50 percent apostasy rate throughout the Deep South? If it were true, that would have reverberated throughout the Church. 

[Jake Starkey]

50 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Not to mention absolutely no proof of the baptismal font that was supposedly rendered unusable.  Something like that - if it actually happened- would be common knowledge in the area. 

Not to mention absolutely no proof of the supposed father in law of the supposed whomever.

People, this is about opinion except for the AUB who got some LDS to join after the lifting of the ban, which is the only sourced evidence.

The other individual and I talked about what we saw in the lower South, and you all are talking about other areas.

You simply don't want to believe that a number of people (some, many  ) , but what you personally think does not matter to the truth of the subject compared to those who have been told such stories.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Jake Starkey]

Scott Lloyd, I did not write, "And a 50 percent apostasy rate throughout the Deep South?"

Only you did.

I said the rural lower South was hit with up to such rates (meaning some were not) and that the urban cities were virtually untouched. 

[Calm]

39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And a 50 percent apostasy rate throughout the Deep South? If it were true, that would have reverberated throughout the Church. 

He specified rural South, which may have been relatively few members at the time.

[Hamba Tuhan]

44 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The story has “urban legend” written all over it ...

Yep. It has all the hallmarks ...