snowflake Posted June 20, 2019 Posted June 20, 2019 In the Book of Mormon Jesus' Apostles pray directly to him recognizing him as Lord and God.....almost all Christian sects accept Jesus as Lord and God (God in flesh)......and will pray directly to Him. It seems as though this is forbidden in LDS culture....Why doesn't the COJCOLDS accept him as Lord and God and pray directly to him as the first BOM Apostles did? 3 Nephi 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.3 Nephi 19:14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.3 Nephi 19:15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.3 Nephi 19:16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.3 Nephi 19:17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and *they did pray unto Jesus*, calling him their Lord and their God.
Popular Post HappyJackWagon Posted June 20, 2019 Popular Post Posted June 20, 2019 14 minutes ago, snowflake said: In the Book of Mormon Jesus' Apostles pray directly to him recognizing him as Lord and God.....almost all Christian sects accept Jesus as Lord and God (God in flesh)......and will pray directly to Him. It seems as though this is forbidden in LDS culture....Why doesn't the COJCOLDS accept him as Lord and God and pray directly to him as the first BOM Apostles did? 3 Nephi 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.3 Nephi 19:14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.3 Nephi 19:15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.3 Nephi 19:16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.3 Nephi 19:17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and *they did pray unto Jesus*, calling him their Lord and their God. I suspect it's because when Jesus prayed he prayed to the Father and the church teaches that we should follow Jesus' example. Also, LDS theology is a bit different than most other Christian denominations in that the church teaches that Jesus is the literal Son of God, a God distinct and separate from God the Father. Other denominations (as far as I understand) teach and believe that Jesus IS God the Father come down to earth. IOW the church and other Christian churches have fundamental difference in understanding and theology related to the nature of who God is. 8
Amulek Posted June 20, 2019 Posted June 20, 2019 Have you read FAIR's answer to this: Question: Why do Latter-day Saints not pray directly to Jesus Christ?
Calm Posted June 20, 2019 Posted June 20, 2019 Snowflake, would you ever say you prayed to the Holy Spirit in the same way you pray to Jesus? Just curious how that works in your faith. Just occurred to me when I was thinking about different members of the Trinity. 2
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted June 21, 2019 Popular Post Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: Snowflake, would you ever say you prayed to the Holy Spirit in the same way you pray to Jesus? Just curious how that works in your faith. Just occurred to me when I was thinking about different members of the Trinity. We had a lovely older couple in a ward I served in as a missionary. He'd been a Pentecostal minister for his entire working life and only joined the Church in retirement. They had us over for lunch one day, and his prayer style was an interesting synthesis. He started off addressing Heavenly Father. Then he prayed first to the Father, then to the Son, and then to the Holy Ghost. Then he closed in the name of Jesus Christ. It was a heartfelt, sincere prayer, and I knew it had been heard. Edited June 21, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan 5
Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted June 21, 2019 Popular Post Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, snowflake said: In the Book of Mormon Jesus' Apostles pray directly to him recognizing him as Lord and God.....almost all Christian sects accept Jesus as Lord and God (God in flesh)......and will pray directly to Him. It seems as though this is forbidden in LDS culture....Why doesn't the COJCOLDS accept him as Lord and God and pray directly to him as the first BOM Apostles did? 19:14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.3 Nephi 19:15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.3 Nephi 19:16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.3 Nephi 19:17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and *they did pray unto Jesus*, calling him their Lord and their God. That was a one time event because they were in his physical presence. Several times they prayed to him in this chapter. Each time he then separated himself from them and he prayed to the Father for them. He also prayed to the Father for them in chapter 17. I think that is instructive. At all other times, they prayed to to the Father in the name of Jesus. He said, Quote 3 Nephi 3 Nephi 13: 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 18:16 And as I have prayed among you even so shall ye pray in my church, among my people who do repent and are baptized in my name. Behold I am the light; I have set an example for you. 17 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto his disciples, he turned again unto the multitude and said unto them: 18 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, ye must watch and pray always lest ye enter into temptation; for Satan desireth to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. 19 Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name; 20 And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you. 21 Pray in your families unto the Father, always in my name, that your wives and your children may be blessed. 17:3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again. 19: 6 And the twelve did teach the multitude; and behold, they did cause that the multitude should kneel down upon the face of the earth, and should pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus. 7 And the disciples did pray unto the Father also in the name of Jesus. And it came to pass that they arose and ministered unto the people. 8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken—nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken—behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus. 9 And they did pray for that which they most desired; and they desired that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them. 20:31 And they shall believe in me, that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and shall pray unto the Father in my name. Moroni 2:2 And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall call on the Father in my name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have power that to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles. Moroni 7:26 And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God. And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you. When he was not with them, they prayed to the Father in his name: Quote 3 Nephi 27:2 And Jesus again showed himself unto them, for they were praying unto the Father in his name; and Jesus came and stood in the midst of them, and said unto them: What will ye that I shall give unto you? Edited June 21, 2019 by Bernard Gui 5
Glenn101 Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 14 hours ago, snowflake said: In the Book of Mormon Jesus' Apostles pray directly to him recognizing him as Lord and God.....almost all Christian sects accept Jesus as Lord and God (God in flesh)......and will pray directly to Him. It seems as though this is forbidden in LDS culture....Why doesn't the COJCOLDS accept him as Lord and God and pray directly to him as the first BOM Apostles did? 3 Nephi 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.3 Nephi 19:14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.3 Nephi 19:15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.3 Nephi 19:16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.3 Nephi 19:17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and *they did pray unto Jesus*, calling him their Lord and their God. I do not know the answer to that question, but it seems to have been just on that occasion when Jesus was physically with them that such happened. Not sure what to make of it. In the same chapter before Jesus returned to them they were praying to God the Father in the name of Jesus and then in Chapter 27 he admonished the people to pray to God the Father in His name. (28 And now I ago unto the Father. And verily I say unto you, whatsoever things ye shall ask the Father in my name shall be given unto you.) Glenn
Kevin Christensen Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 As always, it helps to understand that in calling Jesus the Son of God, that this means he is Jehovah (Yahweh), the son of El Elyon, God Most High. See the DSS version of Deut. 32:8-9, and for much much more covering a wide range of ancient writings, from the oldest Biblical texts, a range Jewish writings, and the first 300 years of Christian writings, see Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. So that the Nephites recognized Jesus as Lord and God is correct. He declares to them that he is the one who gave the Law to make it obvious who he is. That is, Lord and God. And when he prays to his Father, El Elyon, God Most High, that is also proper. And since he encourages us to follow that pattern, we do so. Our problems stem from the tendency to think titles like God or Father or Son can only apply to one being. I am a son, and also a father, and that confuses no one. If Jesus reports that he is the Father and the Son, we some how get confused. But Barker starts her complex argument with the observation that in the Bible, the sons of Yahweh are all human, and the sons of El Elyon are all divine, and one of those sons is Yahweh. This pattern also appears in the Book of Mormon. Those who covenant with the Lord (Jesus, Yahweh) become his sons and daughters, and Jesus/Yahweh/the Lord is God and also is the son of El Elyon, God Most High. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 4
snowflake Posted June 21, 2019 Author Posted June 21, 2019 20 hours ago, Calm said: Snowflake, would you ever say you prayed to the Holy Spirit in the same way you pray to Jesus? Just curious how that works in your faith. Just occurred to me when I was thinking about different members of the Trinity. Good question....I would say that I do not pray to the Holy Spirit in the same way that I pray to the Father. I do pray to the Holy Spirit when I open scripture, often asking him to reveal himself to me, to reveal truth in his word and to give me wisdom (James 1:5). 1
snowflake Posted June 21, 2019 Author Posted June 21, 2019 57 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said: As always, it helps to understand that in calling Jesus the Son of God, that this means he is Jehovah (Yahweh), the son of El Elyon, God Most High. See the DSS version of Deut. 32:8-9, and for much much more covering a wide range of ancient writings, from the oldest Biblical texts, a range Jewish writings, and the first 300 years of Christian writings, see Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. So that the Nephites recognized Jesus as Lord and God is correct. He declares to them that he is the one who gave the Law to make it obvious who he is. That is, Lord and God. And when he prays to his Father, El Elyon, God Most High, that is also proper. And since he encourages us to follow that pattern, we do so. Our problems stem from the tendency to think titles like God or Father or Son can only apply to one being. I am a son, and also a father, and that confuses no one. If Jesus reports that he is the Father and the Son, we some how get confused. But Barker starts her complex argument with the observation that in the Bible, the sons of Yahweh are all human, and the sons of El Elyon are all divine, and one of those sons is Yahweh. This pattern also appears in the Book of Mormon. Those who covenant with the Lord (Jesus, Yahweh) become his sons and daughters, and Jesus/Yahweh/the Lord is God and also is the son of El Elyon, God Most High. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Hi Kevin, I agree with most of what you say above thanks for your response. I highlighted something I would like to ask you about. The bible seems to point out that we are not sons or children of God until we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior...or as you put it "become" his sons and daughters after we covenant with him...the LDS theology seems to teach that humans are "born" sons and daughters....is that a fair analogy? Thank you.
snowflake Posted June 21, 2019 Author Posted June 21, 2019 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: 3 Nephi 27:2 And Jesus again showed himself unto them, for they were praying unto the Father in his name; and Jesus came and stood in the midst of them, and said unto them: What will ye that I shall give unto you? Maybe Jesus was trying to show the Nephites that he was God in the flesh like in John 14? They are praying to the Father then Jesus shows up..... 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
HappyJackWagon Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Kevin Christensen said: As always, it helps to understand that in calling Jesus the Son of God, that this means he is Jehovah (Yahweh), the son of El Elyon, God Most High. See the DSS version of Deut. 32:8-9, and for much much more covering a wide range of ancient writings, from the oldest Biblical texts, a range Jewish writings, and the first 300 years of Christian writings, see Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. So that the Nephites recognized Jesus as Lord and God is correct. He declares to them that he is the one who gave the Law to make it obvious who he is. That is, Lord and God. And when he prays to his Father, El Elyon, God Most High, that is also proper. And since he encourages us to follow that pattern, we do so. Our problems stem from the tendency to think titles like God or Father or Son can only apply to one being. I am a son, and also a father, and that confuses no one. If Jesus reports that he is the Father and the Son, we some how get confused. But Barker starts her complex argument with the observation that in the Bible, the sons of Yahweh are all human, and the sons of El Elyon are all divine, and one of those sons is Yahweh. This pattern also appears in the Book of Mormon. Those who covenant with the Lord (Jesus, Yahweh) become his sons and daughters, and Jesus/Yahweh/the Lord is God and also is the son of El Elyon, God Most High. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Am I the only one here who has never heard of El Elyon?
Kevin Christensen Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Am I the only one here who has never heard of El Elyon? You really should get and read The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. I came across it in 1999, and was permanently affected, and wrote several essays on the implications. "Paradigms Regained", for example. And I have been posting on it ever since. Here is a brief preview: https://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf Brant Gardner discusses the implications of her work (and the work of Mark Smith, another Bible scholar) here: https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2003/monotheism-messiah-and-mormons-book El Elyon is Hebrew for God Most High. It appears in various places, one of the most important being the DSS version of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (which predates Christianity), which shows that El Elyon is the Father of Yahweh, the God of Israel. Barker points out in her book that in the New Testament, Jesus is never said to be the son of the Lord, but the son of El or El Elyon. The title also appears in 1 Nephi when the angel affirms that Nephi is blessed because he believes in the son of God Most High. FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 2
pogi Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Am I the only one here who has never heard of El Elyon? Your probably more familiar with it than you realize. El is both used as a proper name for God and a general term for "God". You see it in compound words all the time, such as El-ohim (plural of El), or Isra-El (wrestles with God), or Immanu-El (God is with us), or El-shaddai (Almighty God). Elyon means "most high". Edited June 21, 2019 by pogi
HappyJackWagon Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, pogi said: Your probably more familiar with it than you realize. El is both used as a proper name for God and a general term for "God". You see it in compound words all the time, such as El-ohim (plural of El), or Isra-El (wrestles with God), or Immanu-El (God is with us), or El-shaddai (Almighty God). Elyon means "most high". Yeah, I'm quite familiar with El. But El Elyon?...nope. It's always fun to learn new stuff. Edited June 21, 2019 by HappyJackWagon 1
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted June 21, 2019 Popular Post Posted June 21, 2019 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Hi Kevin, I agree with most of what you say above thanks for your response. I highlighted something I would like to ask you about. The bible seems to point out that we are not sons or children of God until we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior...or as you put it "become" his sons and daughters after we covenant with him...the LDS theology seems to teach that humans are "born" sons and daughters....is that a fair analogy? Thank you. Hi Snowflake, Each instance of son or daughter or child has a context, and that context has implications for which relationship is being described. Pay attention, and things stay simple. Treat things as absolutes, the same meaning to all observers in all contexts, and you inevitably generate contradiction and tension. When I sing "I am a child of God", I am thinking of Heavenly Father, the Father of Jesus/Yahweh, El Elyon, God Most High, the "father of my spirit." As Paul says, "We are also his offspring." When Jesus or other teacher tells some of his critics that they are the children of the Devil, it is not because they are literally so (they are of Israel, and the spirit children of God), but because of their behavior. When I read Benjamin (or other prophets) saying that "because of this covenant, ye have become his sons and daughter" that is where I see and acknowledge that Christ is also a Father, just as he is a son. Brant's essay goes into this nicely, drawing on important scholarship. Sometimes I look in the mirror and see my Father's face reflected. People who knew my father see it. That doesn't make us the same essence, but that we have a close relationship. Jesus wants the Apostles to be one in him as he is one with the Father. That metaphor of oneness in that context has a meaning. The Greek philosophers tended to thinking in absolutes, whereas the Hebrews were more practical and context aware. Transfer from one thought world to another brought problems. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 5
SettingDogStar Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 I’ve prayed to Jesus before. Usually it’s mid prayer because I’m looking for a specific blessing that I know is coming directly from His hand, such as forgiveness. 1
MiserereNobis Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 For LDS, is praying to Jesus forbidden, discouraged, or not recommended? Would someone be unable to go to the temple if they consistently prayed to Jesus? What would be the response if someone did this publicly at church? 1
Bernard Gui Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 3 hours ago, snowflake said: Maybe Jesus was trying to show the Nephites that he was God in the flesh like in John 14? They are praying to the Father then Jesus shows up..... 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. They were doing what he commanded them to do. I think by then they knew the difference between the Father and the Son.
Bernard Gui Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: For LDS, is praying to Jesus forbidden, discouraged, or not recommended? Would someone be unable to go to the temple if they consistently prayed to Jesus? What would be the response if someone did this publicly at church? Forbidden? How would that be enforced? Temple recommend? How would a bishop know? It’s not a recommend question. At Church? Probably the bishop would talk to the person and teach him/her the correct doctrine and practice. Praying to the Father in the name of Jesus is what he asked us to do. Why would we want not to obey him? 3
Avatar4321 Posted June 21, 2019 Posted June 21, 2019 I would have no problem praying to jesus if He appeared before me. However He has told us to pray to the Father in his name otherwise 1
Calm Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: For LDS, is praying to Jesus forbidden, discouraged, or not recommended? Would someone be unable to go to the temple if they consistently prayed to Jesus? What would be the response if someone did this publicly at church? As long as they didn't publicly advocate for it, I doubt it would be a problem, though their leader might counsel them to focus on more traditional methods of prayer. 2
MiserereNobis Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Forbidden? How would that be enforced? Temple recommend? How would a bishop know? It’s not a recommend question. Well, I don't know, that's why I asked the question. Quote Praying to the Father in the name of Jesus is what he asked us to do. Why would we want not to obey him? You have to admit that that passage is up for interpretation and is not just a clear "why don't you want to obey Jesus?" The vast vast majority of the Christian world prays to Jesus because we interpret that passage differently than you. Likewise, the vast majority of the Christian world prays the "Our Father" because we also interpret that passage differently than you. I could have been just as flippant and said: Jesus asked us to the pray the "Our Father." Why don't you want to obey Him? But I understand your interpretation, so I don't need to say that Edited June 22, 2019 by MiserereNobis 3
MiserereNobis Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: I would have no problem praying to jesus if He appeared before me. However He has told us to pray to the Father in his name otherwise If He appears before you, wouldn't you just talk to Him? It seems to me that prayer is a way to communicate with a supernatural being who is not right in front of you. Edited June 22, 2019 by MiserereNobis 1
MiserereNobis Posted June 22, 2019 Posted June 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Calm said: As long as they didn't publicly advocate for it, I doubt it would be a problem, though their leader might counsel them to focus on more traditional methods of prayer. I think I remember reading on some thread somewhere about some women praying to Heavenly Mother. Would that be treated like this do you think or is it a step too far? 1
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