Popular Post Calm Posted May 30, 2019 Popular Post Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) Quote When someone accuses the church of something, should the church turn the other cheek? The Church is also responsible for taking care of its members. Turning the cheek or giving up one's cloak only affects the individual making that choice. Any choice the Church makes for giving out funds affects all membership to some degree. Does it help or hurt a liar if one goes along with the lie because one doesn't want to offend a possible victim? Edited May 30, 2019 by Calm 8
Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted May 31, 2019 Author Popular Post Posted May 31, 2019 51 minutes ago, changed said: In another board, not so far away, is a thread discussing "fighting for Jesus". When someone accuses the church of something, should the church turn the other cheek? If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40 if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well; 41 and if someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. WWJD? How should the church handle cases like this? Document everything as much as possible and wait for the Second Coming for a reckoning. With justice and mercy. Warp and weft. As we learn in 12 Step, turning the other cheek does not mean being someone's doormat. 6
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2019 Popular Post Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) I noticed Norton sort of halfway apologized to Bishop. Will he apologize to the ward in Arizona for helping Denson disrupt their fast and testimony meeting? Edited May 31, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 6
changed Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Document everything as much as possible and wait for the Second Coming for a reckoning. With justice and mercy. Warp and weft. As we learn in 12 Step, turning the other cheek does not mean being someone's doormat. The problem with waiting for the second coming are all the people who can get hurt between now and then if policies are not changed, and nothing is done. How about instituting two-deep policies for everyone at all times? How about windows in doors? How about not sending mentally compromised and abused individuals to untrained volunteers who are unable to help them? How about relying more on professional help where needed? God helps those who help themselves 2
Exiled Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I noticed Norton sort of halfway apologized to Bishop. Will he apologize to the ward in Arizona for helping Denison disrupt their fast and testimony meeting? Was the ward really hurt? Back when I was in my younger days, we had this kook who was going around to wards on fast Sunday and getting up to give anti Marie Osmond testimonies come to our ward on a fast Sunday. She was sitting close to me and got up during an excruciatingly boring part to give her speel. It was nutty but the reaction by the bishopric made the meeting one of the more memorable meetings. They cut her mic and escorted her out. It was pretty exciting. I'm sure the AZ saints in Bishop's ward feel the same way about putting a little spice in an otherwise dry as dust meeting. They should count themselves as blessed for having been witnesses.
Popular Post Calm Posted May 31, 2019 Popular Post Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Exiled said: Was the ward really hurt? Back when I was in my younger days, we had this kook who was going around to wards on fast Sunday and getting up to give anti Marie Osmond testimonies come to our ward on a fast Sunday. She was sitting close to me and got up during an excruciatingly boring part to give her speel. It was nutty but the reaction by the bishopric made the meeting one of the more memorable meetings. They cut her mic and escorted her out. It was pretty exciting. I'm sure the AZ saints in Bishop's ward feel the same way about putting a little spice in an otherwise dry as dust meeting. They should count themselves as blessed for having been witnesses. I think Denson yelling at at least one of the men "are you a sexual predator?!" **** Would be rather traumatizing to their families and friends. Just the disturbance itself would be very upsetting to many children .I know and youth old enough to know what was going on would often be horrified, though if not related some might find it exciting and fun to talk about. We had a very mentally challenged, wheelchair restricted man reach out and fondle one of the young women in one of my previous wards. He didn't understand the significance, was just doing to her what had been done to him in the group home he lived in. Bishop assigned two elders to be by him at all times while at church, but the mother understandably wanted him gone and made a point about talking about it to other members. The two elderly parents of the man who had lived there forever were horrified it had happened, but were also put under extreme stress by the repetition of the story. The young women's group was as well. Kids who didn't understand were frightened by it. There is a huge difference between a random rant about somebody the families/youth and children don't know personally and accusations of rape and sexual predation being thrown at members of one's own ward, possibly even one's father. It is not excitement for everyone and young kids are quite disturbed and frightened in my experience. ***http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70990-denson-interrupts-bishops-home-ward-testimony-meeting/?do=findComment&comment=1209851835 Edited May 31, 2019 by Calm 7
Duncan Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Document everything as much as possible and wait for the Second Coming for a reckoning. With justice and mercy. Warp and weft. As we learn in 12 Step, turning the other cheek does not mean being someone's doormat. as they say the mills of the Gods grind exceedingly slow but exceedingly fine 3
Bernard Gui Posted May 31, 2019 Author Posted May 31, 2019 3 hours ago, changed said: The problem with waiting for the second coming are all the people who can get hurt between now and then if policies are not changed, and nothing is done. How about instituting two-deep policies for everyone at all times? How about windows in doors? How about not sending mentally compromised and abused individuals to untrained volunteers who are unable to help them? How about relying more on professional help where needed? God helps those who help themselves How about taking that dead horse to another thread? 1
Rain Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 5 hours ago, Exiled said: Was the ward really hurt? Back when I was in my younger days, we had this kook who was going around to wards on fast Sunday and getting up to give anti Marie Osmond testimonies come to our ward on a fast Sunday. She was sitting close to me and got up during an excruciatingly boring part to give her speel. It was nutty but the reaction by the bishopric made the meeting one of the more memorable meetings. They cut her mic and escorted her out. It was pretty exciting. I'm sure the AZ saints in Bishop's ward feel the same way about putting a little spice in an otherwise dry as dust meeting. They should count themselves as blessed for having been witnesses. It may seem dry sometimes, but other times those "dry" times have been a solace to my soul when I have needed it. So ignoring calm's well made point, yes, it may have hurt some in the ward. 4
Popular Post Kenngo1969 Posted May 31, 2019 Popular Post Posted May 31, 2019 8 hours ago, Exiled said: ... I'm sure the AZ saints in Bishop's ward feel the same way about putting a little spice in an otherwise dry as dust meeting. They should count themselves as blessed for having been witnesses. Sometimes, proceedings here on the Board get "dry as dust," especially lately. Fortunately, as it happens, I know that "Exiled's" real name is [Exiled's Real Name]. (Stay tuned for what's coming! It'll be worth it!) I've followed [Exiled's Real Name's] breadcrumbs around the Internet, and I've been able to discover some very interesting things about his family situation, about certain of his most interesting friends and associates, (at least generally) about his his finances, about certain interesting proclivities he has, and so on. I'm sure he won't mind my revelations to spice up these "dry-as-dust" proceedings! Same result, right Exiled? I simply want to spice up the boring lives of my on-line acquaintances! Having your dirty laundry aired as a result is a small price to pay! I gotta tell ya: Not seeing things the same way you might've seen them as a devout Latter-day Saint is, from a certain perspective, understandable; even disagreeing with those with whom you once found communion certainly is understandable; those things I get. But if this post is any indication (and remember, fair or not, the only thing I have to go by is what you write here on the Board) that sort of attitude bespeaks a remarkable degree of cynicism, jadedness, and lack of empathy. 5
Exiled Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Sometimes, proceedings here on the Board get "dry as dust," especially lately. Fortunately, as it happens, I know that "Exiled's" real name is [Exiled's Real Name]. (Stay tuned for what's coming! It'll be worth it!) I've followed [Exiled's Real Name's] breadcrumbs around the Internet, and I've been able to discover some very interesting things about his family situation, about certain of his most interesting friends and associates, (at least generally) about his his finances, about certain interesting proclivities he has, and so on. I'm sure he won't mind my revelations to spice up these "dry-as-dust" proceedings! Same result, right Exiled? I simply want to spice up the boring lives of my on-line acquaintances! Having your dirty laundry aired as a result is a small price to pay! I gotta tell ya: Not seeing things the same way you might've seen them as a devout Latter-day Saint is, from a certain perspective, understandable; even disagreeing with those with whom you once found communion certainly is understandable; those things I get. But if this post is any indication (and remember, fair or not, the only thing I have to go by is what you write here on the Board) that sort of attitude bespeaks a remarkable degree of cynicism, jadedness, and lack of empathy. Come on ..... a lot of testimony meetings are to be endured and they are dry as dust sometimes. You don't have to admit this here, but if a 70 or apostle said that some testimony meetings have to be endured, it would take the house down. The laughter at this line would go on for at least 15 to 20 seconds. Maybe it can be an opening line for the next time one of the brethren want to teach how to make the meetings more interesting or more spiritual .....?
Bernard Gui Posted May 31, 2019 Author Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Exiled said: Come on ..... a lot of testimony meetings are to be endured and they are dry as dust sometimes. You don't have to admit this here, but if a 70 or apostle said that some testimony meetings have to be endured, it would take the house down. The laughter at this line would go on for at least 15 to 20 seconds. Maybe it can be an opening line for the next time one of the brethren want to teach how to make the meetings more interesting or more spiritual .....? I doubt they would mock the Saints in that way. I have heard encouragement to bear testimonies and instructions on what is appropriate. What Ms Denson did was disrespectful, offensive, and inappropriate, not interesting at all. I haven’t been to a dry boring testimony meeting for years. No travelogues, few kids prompted by their parents. Many testimonies of the Savior and gratitude to the Lord and to members, stories of conversion, service, and charity. Perhaps our ward is unique? Edited May 31, 2019 by Bernard Gui 4
Kenngo1969 Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) As one poster, in particular, has demonstrated here, others' mileage likely varies, but a couple of challenges with testimony meetings (and a big part of the reason why, perhaps, they might be "uneven") are (1) that members are trying to convey feelings and experiences that transcend words, in words; and (2) we're all at different places on the Gospel path: what's meaningful to you, and why, might not be as meaningful to me (at least, not given the limitation just mentioned). However, if we could, somehow, transcend words (a feat not possible in the current human condition), it's very likely that we would see "old, boring Brother Smith" in a different light. And that's the real problem with what Mr. Norton and Ms. Denson did: People's attempt to have a transcendent, covenantal, transformative experience (as much as it is possible to do so in our current mortal, fallen, human condition) was hijacked by two idiots Children of God behaving idiotically with an agenda. But, sacrament meetings are boring, so ... Edited May 31, 2019 by Kenngo1969 4
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Sounds like a case for Dr Phil. MMMMM more like Jerry Springer maybe, 3
Exiled Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 31 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I haven’t been to a dry boring testimony meeting for years. That's great you have a ward where the meetings are enriching and spirituality abundant. 1
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: As R.Reagan used to say, "trust but verify." Unfortunately, I have become skeptical of just about everything that comes down the pike now. The truth of the Deflationary Theory of Truth is verifying itself before our eyes. https://psychology.wikia.org/wiki/Deflationary_theory_of_truth Quote The deflationary theory of truth is a family of theories which all have in common the belief that assertions that predicate truth of a statement do not provide any substantive information or insight into the nature of truth. Deflationary theories need to be carefully distinguished from so-called primitivist theories of truth, which claim that truth is a fundamental, indefinable, irreducible property of propositions, on the one hand, and from currently fashionable identity theories of truth, which claim that truth is a relation of identity between truth-bearers and truthmakers on the other. "Trust but verify" is the best we have even with Kuhn and his theory of paradigms which change and evolve after a few years of being "true". "What really happened" is always so cloudy and subject to alternate interpretation that we need to realize that all we have is a sea of opinions and we all get to have one as well, but not demand "ultimate truth" at least here in the "vale of tears" THAT is for the other side. We are here to operate by faith even in Jury trials where "what really happened" is defined by 12 ordinary folks like us coming up with one opinion, It's the best we have, but we need to understand that!! 1
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Exiled said: That's great you have a ward where the meetings are enriching and spirituality abundant. ... And that Bernard is able to make them so. That is the key. It's not that they are "objectively" enriching and spiritually abundant- it is how he creates them inside himself where the kingdom of heaven resides. Everything my friend, depends on our perceptions. I am out of this thread- sorry for the derail! Edited May 31, 2019 by mfbukowski 2
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 51 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I doubt they would mock the Saints in that way. I have heard encouragement to bear testimonies and instructions on what is appropriate. What Ms Denson did was disrespectful, offensive, and inappropriate, not interesting at all. I haven’t been to a dry boring testimony meeting for years. No travelogues, few kids prompted by their parents. Many testimonies of the Savior and gratitude to the Lord and to members, stories of conversion, service, and charity. Perhaps our ward is unique? Nah, YOU are! Sorry had to do just one more... 1
Exiled Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Everything my friend, depends on our perceptions. .... in religion ....
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Exiled said: .... in religion .... Yes of course and your religion is different than mine. Your need for certainty is insecurity. Come over to the other thread and we can discuss it. Here it is a derail. "Pragmatic Secular Atonement" Edited May 31, 2019 by mfbukowski 1
Exiled Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yes of course and your religion is different than mine. Your need for certainty is insecurity. Come over to the other thread and we can discuss it. Here it is a derail. "Pragmatic Secular Atonement" I don't think you read me correctly. I think the appeal to the subjective is just a way to defend against the indefensible that you find convenient. Also, there is the condemnation of unbelievers, however politely it is done by others, that also sparks interest in exposing the apologetic you use. There is no insecurity in not believing something where the proof offered is entirely subjective.
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2019 Posted May 31, 2019 34 minutes ago, Exiled said: I don't think you read me correctly. I think the appeal to the subjective is just a way to defend against the indefensible that you find convenient. Also, there is the condemnation of unbelievers, however politely it is done by others, that also sparks interest in exposing the apologetic you use. There is no insecurity in not believing something where the proof offered is entirely subjective. Derail, I will answer it elsewhere but not here.
Tacenda Posted June 1, 2019 Posted June 1, 2019 (edited) If anyone wants, Mike Norton is live on FB answering questions, some that we on this board have had. If anyone is interested in listening it started at 8:30pm pst/9:30pm mst. Of course, I can see how faithful members would not want to get near his FB timeline or photos. ETA: He posted this... *****DOMESTIC VIOLENCE and ADULT LANGUAGE TRIGGER WARNING****** I’m doing a LIVE Q&A on the latest developments on the June “McKenna” Denson matter tonight, May 31, 2019 @ 8:30 PM PST (9:30 PM MST). This will be especially if interest to the tiny handful of people who think I should just drop this matter. Not. Gonna. Happen. Not today at least. Edited June 1, 2019 by Tacenda
provoman Posted June 1, 2019 Posted June 1, 2019 It is in two parts, seems to have been a internet malfunction that caused the two parts. At one point he does address the dossier and why now. Seems he considered the dossier as reported in the news to be a biased report, so he never read the dossier. Ethan Krok - something happened between him and mckenna that has really upset ethan - was the one who first started to suggest to Mike look at the dossier and other issues. Have not listened to the second part 1
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