SouthernMo Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 Can one keep a covenant if one doesn’t understand it?
Jane_Doe Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 Yes. But we of course would was into improve understand over time. 2
Popular Post ksfisher Posted May 5, 2019 Popular Post Posted May 5, 2019 20 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Can one keep a covenant if one doesn’t understand it? 5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord. 6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me. (Moses 5) A couple questions for thought 1) Can any mortal truly say that they completely comprehend eternal covenants? 2) Can keeping covenants lead to increased understanding? 11
MustardSeed Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 I certainly hope so. I should think we would get some credit for efforts , doing the best we can with what we presently know. 4
Metis_LDS Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 1 hour ago, SouthernMo said: Can one keep a covenant if one doesn’t understand it? I think know what you are asking but it gets complicated very quickly. So you have to at least know what your part of the covenant is, it is about as an example not to worship idols. So we know the performance of keeping the covenant "Do Not Worship Idols" but we may not know the why. Can we keep certain covenants without understanding fully the why is what I think your question is really asking. Perhaps the why is withheld at times so if the covenant is broken there is less condemnation IMO.
carbon dioxide Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Can one keep a covenant if one doesn’t understand it? Yes though more difficult but that is what life is all about. Many people refuse to believe without evidence first. Atheists will not believe unless they see evidence. What we understand in the Church is that to believe, to follow, to accept, and so forth after one has evidence is a pre mortal or first estate test. All of use proved to God and us that we could follow God in the pre mortal world after having evidence. The evidence was all around us. All of us past the atheist standards of a test and that is why we are here taking a harder exam of trusting and following God on faith than evidence. Those who require evidence in this life before they will believe really want to retake the exams we took in the first estate again. Sort of like a kid who takes general math and gets great grades but fails algebra. They want to drop out of algebra and retake general math again and then expect that to be sufficient to receive the rewards of those who passed algebra. This is the test of the second estate. To follow God and keep covenants even if we do not understand them. Even the dumbest people can believe something if they have evidence. To believe something without evidence, to follow or keep a covenant without understanding it is what separates individuals in this life from the rest of the herd and prepares them for exaltation. Edited May 5, 2019 by carbon dioxide 1
RevTestament Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 43 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Yes though more difficult but that is what life is all about. Many people refuse to believe without evidence first. Atheists will not believe unless they see evidence. What we understand in the Church is that to believe, to follow, to accept, and so forth after one has evidence is a pre mortal or first estate test. All of use proved to God and us that we could follow God in the pre mortal world after having evidence. The evidence was all around us. All of us past the atheist standards of a test and that is why we are here taking a harder exam of trusting and following God on faith than evidence. Those who require evidence in this life before they will believe really want to retake the exams we took in the first estate again. Sort of like a kid who takes general math and gets great grades but fails algebra. They want to drop out of algebra and retake general math again and then expect that to be sufficient to receive the rewards of those who passed algebra. This is the test of the second estate. To follow God and keep covenants even if we do not understand them. Even the dumbest people can believe something if they have evidence. To believe something without evidence, to follow or keep a covenant without understanding it is what separates individuals in this life from the rest of the herd and prepares them for exaltation. Although, ultimately, those who do understand the covenant they are living will probably live it with more purpose. I pose that those living the covenant will come to more understanding as they live it. Life tends to be a very good teacher. 2
SouthernMo Posted May 5, 2019 Author Posted May 5, 2019 How will I know if I have broken my covenant not to engage in “loud laughter?” Or is it best not to laugh at all as taught in scripture (D&C 88:121)? 1
Glenn101 Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 4 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Can one keep a covenant if one doesn’t understand it? I hope so. I do not understand anything. I do not understand the Atonement. I understand the teachings on it pretty well but I struggle to comprehend it. one would think that a relatively simple covenant such as baptism would be easily comprehended, but again, I understand the teachings but I know that I have not wrapped myself around the spiritual implications. I may be a bit ahead of Adam at the the time that he was asked why he was making sacrifices and he answered that he did not know why, just that he had been commanded to do so, but I am not too much further. I know but I do not fully understand. Glenn 1
MustardSeed Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 34 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: How will I know if I have broken my covenant not to engage in “loud laughter?” Or is it best not to laugh at all as taught in scripture (D&C 88:121)? For this one I use common sense, and I feel fine about that. Never have I felt the spirit disapprove of my very loud laughter. If I am wrong about this or other things I trust God to take into account my stupidity. 3
Maidservant Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, SouthernMo said: How will I know if I have broken my covenant not to engage in “loud laughter?” Or is it best not to laugh at all as taught in scripture (D&C 88:121)? I have wondered at this over the years, too, and I have started to understand for myself that this is how we approach life and other people, and that this indicates a mocking laughter that includes harm and deception toward another--not a happy and peaceful laugh in praising life and creation. It's also the laugh that goes along with vanity and with blind conformity to society and consumerism (i.e. the laughter coming from the great and spacious building). It's the laughter of a crowd that is saying, "Wow, look at the marvelous clothes of the Emperor!" The wish to be seen and approved of the world and not God. It's actually quite a lesson in a brief phrase. Edited May 5, 2019 by Maidservant 4
carbon dioxide Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: Although, ultimately, those who do understand the covenant they are living will probably live it with more purpose. I pose that those living the covenant will come to more understanding as they live it. Life tends to be a very good teacher. Yeah. I do think that God will give understanding to those who live by faith with their covenants. Some more and some less but he will help us understand more and more through time. Life is also a place to learn as well as a test of faith. 1
changed Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Can one keep a covenant if one doesn’t understand it? I know quite a few people who were "married" (not sealed = listen to the exact wording - there are individual blessings that are sealed, but people are only "married" as is) ... anyways, under the new and ever-lasting covenant... I think few people actually know what this "new and ever-lasting" polygamy covenant actually is, and do not live it. .... at least, let's hope they do not live it. I would add - everyone who has made covenants without a full understanding is under no obligation to remain under said covenant when it is revealed what that covenant actually was. Duress. Coercion. - not a covenant with the Lord, trickery with a church. Edited May 5, 2019 by changed
JLHPROF Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Can one keep a covenant if one doesn’t understand it? Yes, but it would lean towards the letter. (Going through the motions). Edited May 5, 2019 by JLHPROF
CV75 Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 8 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Can one keep a covenant if one doesn’t understand it? I depends. But generally, I think he can only keep it to the extent he understands it. The covenants are structured so that faith counts as understanding, and grace is structured so that we can always improve our faith, understanding and observance. 1
RevTestament Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 57 minutes ago, changed said: I know quite a few people who were "married" (not sealed = listen to the exact wording - there are individual blessings that are sealed, but people are only "married" as is) ... anyways, under the new and ever-lasting covenant... I think few people actually know what this "new and ever-lasting" polygamy covenant actually is, and do not live it. .... at least, let's hope they do not live it. I would add - everyone who has made covenants without a full understanding is under no obligation to remain under said covenant when it is revealed what that covenant actually was. Duress. Coercion. - not a covenant with the Lord, trickery with a church. The gospel does not operate under coercion. Even though a husband may believe he has two wives if the first died, I believe the 2nd sealing may get annulled in heaven if the first wife does not consent - following the law given on earth. 1
changed Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 1 minute ago, RevTestament said: The gospel does not operate under coercion. Even though a husband may believe he has two wives if the first died, I believe the 2nd sealing may get annulled in heaven if the first wife does not consent - following the law given on earth. there are no "sealings"... listen carefully to the wording the next time you go in... there are personal blessings which are sealed on individuals, but the word "seal" is not used in the marriage ceremony - couples are "married" for time and all eternity, not sealed... read D&C 132 if you want to know what the "new and everlasting covenant" pertains to... not my idea of heaven... sounds like the other place to me.
RevTestament Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: there are no "sealings"... listen carefully to the wording the next time you go in... there are personal blessings which are sealed on individuals, but the word "seal" is not used in the marriage ceremony - couples are "married" for time and all eternity, not sealed... read D&C 132 if you want to know what the "new and everlasting covenant" pertains to... not my idea of heaven... sounds like the other place to me. 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, Yes, there are sealings. It is done by the Holy Spirit. This is part of the new and everlasting covenant. Are you saying marriage is hell? I would disagree. I concede there are bad marriages. Choose wisely. I'm sure you have something to say. Maybe you should just go ahead and say it, because I am not seeing anything that is comparable to hell there. Are virgins invited to the wedding?
JLHPROF Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: The gospel does not operate under coercion. Even though a husband may believe he has two wives if the first died, I believe the 2nd sealing may get annulled in heaven if the first wife does not consent - following the law given on earth. Poppycock. In fact I believe it would be the opposite. You can only remove yourself from a covenant. It would completely violate agency if your speculation were at all valid. Edited May 6, 2019 by JLHPROF
Wade Englund Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 7 hours ago, SouthernMo said: How will I know if I have broken my covenant not to engage in “loud laughter?” Or is it best not to laugh at all as taught in scripture (D&C 88:121)? That is a Pharisee and Sadducee -like question which is seriously lacking in understanding of Godly covenants.. Thanks, -Wade Englund-
JLHPROF Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 3 hours ago, changed said: there are no "sealings"... listen carefully to the wording the next time you go in... there are personal blessings which are sealed on individuals, but the word "seal" is not used in the marriage ceremony - couples are "married" for time and all eternity, not sealed... read D&C 132 if you want to know what the "new and everlasting covenant" pertains to... not my idea of heaven... sounds like the other place to me. The word seal is used in the parent/child sealings. And the blessings sealed in the marriage ceremony aren't pronounced individually, but specifically on the couple together. The blessings sealed cannot be received individually and require the husband/wife union to continue into eternity. An eternal sealing in clearly implied in the blessings sealed.
Wade Englund Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 4 hours ago, changed said: II would add - everyone who has made covenants without a full understanding is under no obligation to remain under said covenant when it is revealed what that covenant actually was. Duress. Coercion. - not a covenant with the Lord, trickery with a church. You forgot to mention "magic." To me, the primary purpose of excommunication is the merciful removal of accountability for covenants that have been made, though it also negates the blessings associated therewith. God has provided an out for those who do not understand, or more important, those who seem unable to keep the covenants. Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
changed Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Are you saying marriage is hell? Polygamy is hell, adultery is hell, what Emma went through and what BY's wives went through, and all of Warren Jeff's wives went through is hell. If you have not experienced it - have not experienced adultery, then please... do not pretend that you would be "ok" with it. 35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: An eternal sealing in clearly implied in the blessings sealed. Haha - "implied" - not specifically said, just "implied"... what is actually said - is marriage NOT sealed... it is a marriage. Edited May 6, 2019 by changed
changed Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 19 minutes ago, Wade Englund said: God has provided an out for those who do not understand How is anyone supposed to "understand" everything in the temple the first time they go through - the first time they make all these covenants? No one is allowed to read anything or study anything ahead of time - everyone goes in blind (if they are faithful and did not watch new-name-Noah's videos) the excuse is "milk before meat" - just show you the milk to get you through the door, then when you discover the 'meat' - the bloody carnage ... some people stay, others go. Most people do not leave because of 'sin" - read the faith crisis report - people leave because church teachings like polygamy go against their moral compass. 1
Wade Englund Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, changed said: How is anyone supposed to "understand" everything in the temple the first time they go through - the first time they make all these covenants? No one is allowed to read anything or study anything ahead of time - everyone goes in blind (if they are faithful and did not watch new-name-Noah's videos) the excuse is "milk before meat" - just show you the milk to get you through the door, then when you discover the 'meat' - the bloody carnage ... some people stay, others go. Most people do not leave because of 'sin" - read the faith crisis report - people leave because church teachings like polygamy go against their moral compass. No one is suggesting they need to understand everything the first time, or the second, or.... I was speaking about those who need an out. Most temple-goers don't because they understand well enough. Thanks, -Wade Englund- 2
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