The Church is potentially spending 129 million to purchase a London office building.

[SouthernMo]

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

Honestly, it seems to me the dogma is at your end insisting the one verse be taken without the additional context provided by additional revelation.

It could be.  But, I run into the problem of then knowing how seriously to take any “truths” if they continually need context and new revelation.

Its getting safer for me to ignore any truths that i cannot test right now that help me live a happier life today.

[SouthernMo]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

A certain minimum is required to get into the Millennium still living (those who have lived righteously according to amount of the law they have been given), what one does there when presented with the fullness overtime probably determines our final destination.

Maybe. We don’t seem as a church to have an established idea of how the afterlife will work. It seems to get fuzzy on judgments and kingdoms since there have been some conflicting teachings through the years.

Again, I’m getting done with having faith in anything declared definitive, and it’s making me less inclined to Mormonism, because that knowledge of what is coming after death is getting less and less clear as I study it.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don't know.  Is there a difference between saying that someone who has power would never be able to use it and saying that someone's power is bound?

It says Satan will have no power over the people’s hearts if they all had hearts like this guy. I think that means he could tempt but not succeed. I admit to a little skepticism of the whole thing as hyperbole this is the Captain Moroni who blew up a POW exchange that got him everything he wanted because he lost his temper. Then he wrote a hostile letter to the head of the government making assumptions in ignorance about what is going on. In both cases anger still was a problem for him and anger is usually the devil’s playground. I am not trying to denigrate Captain Moroni. If anything his weakness gives me hope that I can do great things despite my own.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It says Satan will have no power over the people’s hearts if they all had hearts like this guy. I think that means he could tempt but not succeed. I admit to a little skepticism of the whole thing as hyperbole this is the Captain Moroni who blew up a POW exchange that got him everything he wanted because he lost his temper. Then he wrote a hostile letter to the head of the government making assumptions in ignorance about what is going on. In both cases anger still was a problem for him and anger is usually the devil’s playground. I am not trying to denigrate Captain Moroni. If anything his weakness gives me hope that I can do great things despite my own.

I don't believe Satan is able to do what people say. I'm so glad that idea or monkey is now off my back.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, but if happiness here is a prerequisite for happiness there then I have a long way to go.

How far away are you right now from a lonely senior who needs a ministering visit of some kind? I reckon it's not as far as you might think. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[SouthernMo]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe Satan is able to do what people say. I'm so glad that idea or monkey is now off my back.

Like. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe Satan is able to do what people say.

Do you include Jesus as one of those 'people'?

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe Satan is able to do what people say. I'm so glad that idea or monkey is now off my back.

In your new belief system, does Satan have a role or is he the same the boogieman underneath a child's bed?

[Tacenda]

37 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

In your new belief system, does Satan have a role or is he the same the boogieman underneath a child's bed?

Well, after reading some scriptures stating he's real, just a bit ago, ever since Hamba's comment to me. I almost feel like I will be struck down for my statement.

For some reason, I just don't think he makes me do things. I feel like I do them, and should expect to be blamed, not some entity called Satan. I don't give that, whatever he is, credit. I think half or more of the scriptures are made up in the Bible, somewhat like the headhunters on Gilligan's island that thought every thing is a sign of some entity.

I know my mother had an experience with something that she thought was Satan, it pressed down on her one night or something. And a sister-in-law felt the presence of Satan in a very traumatic way.

So maybe I've scathed by w/o all that. Or Satan has no need to be in my life since I'm too far gone and he works on the really stalwart people. Maybe my faith is so low that he just skips working on me. But I do believe in God, thanks for asking. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

For some reason, I just don't think he makes me do things.

I don't think believing that Satan is real (and entices us in the same way that God does) requires us to think he makes us do what we do. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't think believing that Satan is real (and entices us in the same way that God does) requires us to think he makes us do what we do. 

What do you think he does? I like this article: https://careynieuwhof.com/5-signs-the-enemy-not-god-is-winning-in-your-life-and-leadership/

Maybe he's more in our lives when we aren't living right, just read another article. So if I lie, steal, swear, covet, hate, feel bitter etc. He feels he can work more in my life. 

Or this one: https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/2017/01/seven-lies-satan-wants-you-to-believe?lang=eng Very good. Maybe it's why I don't want anything to do with Satan. Of course in this article it did mention Satan wanting me to believe that God doesn't hear my prayers so why pray. That one I'm bad at.

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

37 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What do you think he does?

I think he does precisely what the New Testament and the Book of Mormon say he does. I would sum it up as: he invites and entices us to do evil, and he often does so through flattery (appealing to our pride, our intellect, etc.) and lies. His goal is to make us miserable because he is.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

How far away are you right now from a lonely senior who needs a ministering visit of some kind? I reckon it's not as far as you might think. 

There is one nearby but I cannot go right now. Going there means being ill for at least an hour, a long shower, and having to heavily wash or burn whatever I wore. That woman knows how to smoke and it is overwhelming. Plus I already helped one of my neighbors build a new garden box thingie to grow strawberries in today. Mostly wanted to make sure he was doing okay....he just lost his job.  

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe Satan is able to do what people say. I'm so glad that idea or monkey is now off my back.

After having been involved in an exorcism I can say those nasty little unclean spirits are quite potent in some ways and impotent in many others.

[Calm]

I see Satan (assuming he is one individual****) as a manipulative narcissistic cynical jerk who will use whatever works best to persuade people to screw up their lives because he gets off on a power trip when he can convince people to act against their better judgment in self destructive ways....think of a teenage boy who can't be the most popular kid in school, so instead he goes all bad boy and tries to get others to follow his lead, but when they do and end up getting expelled, dumped by their girlfriend for being too handsy, or humiliated when drunk, he just laughs at them and moves on to his next victim.

What makes him influential is he is very good as appearing to be what we want, whether bad or good and helping us justifying taking shortcuts or making exceptions for 'just this once'. 

I suspect he is more symbol/archetype for our selfdeception than actual influencer, but I think he gets to be used as a personification because it may be easier for some to resist an enemy than think of changing themselves and God, like a good parent, frames things to help us stick to his path long enough to grow up to accept full responsibility for our choices and feelings.

****If there is a Christ (which I believe), then it seems reasonable to me as a mortal that there is someone willing to work against him out of jealousy, but we are talking about eternal natures of beings who have existed for millions of millions of years, so it seems likely to me who Satan is as an individual is more complicated than the simple role we have sketched out as 'the enemy'.  But who knows, maybe existing for eternities distilled us down to pretty pure principles of good and evil.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

42 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I already helped one of my neighbors build a new garden box thingie to grow strawberries in today. Mostly wanted to make sure he was doing okay....he just lost his job.  

Oh dear! I hope he'll find another (and even better, possibly?) job soon. Thanks for checking on and helping him!

[Hamba Tuhan]

44 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

After having been involved in an exorcism I can say those nasty little unclean spirits are quite potent in some ways and impotent in many others.

And quite unlike anything in popular media.

[SteveO]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

After having been involved in an exorcism I can say those nasty little unclean spirits are quite potent in some ways and impotent in many others.

Are there guidelines about doing these?  I’ve heard of them being done on the mission, but I always thought they were a little more on the side of  “Mormon Urban Legends.”  At the minimum, I figured they were examples of overzealous members who wanted mental illness to be something it wasn’t.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Are there guidelines about doing these?  I’ve heard of them being done on the mission, but I always thought they were a little more on the side of  “Mormon Urban Legends.”  At the minimum, I figured they were examples of overzealous members who wanted mental illness to be something it wasn’t.

Judge much? Or are you just an extraordinarily adept psychic?

[SteveO]

4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Judge much? Or are you just an extraordinarily adept psychic?

It was an honest and sincere question. 

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Judge much? Or are you just an extraordinarily adept psychic?

I'm surprised by your put down for SteveO. Where did that come from? Have you had experience with this? 

In articles I've read it very much could be mental conditions .

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

Are there guidelines about doing these?  I’ve heard of them being done on the mission, but I always thought they were a little more on the side of  “Mormon Urban Legends.”  At the minimum, I figured they were examples of overzealous members who wanted mental illness to be something it wasn’t.

I'm not aware of any guidelines.  I've given priesthood blessings to people to people who felt that they were possessed (or, more often, it was their loved ones who thought they were because the "possessed" individual wasn't speaking).

The priesthood blessings seemed to work (symptoms went away).

Whether these were evil spirits, mental illness, a panic attack, or something else -- I can't say.  But I am a believer in the power of priesthood blessings for those who have faith in them.

 

(A side note for those who have conversed a lot with me on these boards:  You know I struggle with many of the truth claims and teachings of the Church.  Beginning about 12 years ago, I had to completely reconstruct my crumbling faith.  My experiences with priesthood blessings are one of a few reasons that I cannot just walk away from the church.)

Edited May 3, 2019 by rockpond

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And quite unlike anything in popular media.

Yeah, exorcisms in movies look much more fun and interesting.

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Are there guidelines about doing these?  I’ve heard of them being done on the mission, but I always thought they were a little more on the side of  “Mormon Urban Legends.”  At the minimum, I figured they were examples of overzealous members who wanted mental illness to be something it wasn’t.

I have never seen any guidelines. I just made it up as I went. I assume if there is an exact prayer it would have been given by revelation.

I have seen the fake kind you describe. I went with a friend to give a blessing to a lady who was convinced she was plagued by demons. We gave her a blessing and halfway through she felt the need to tell us to “don’t forget to cast out the demons. He humored her. On my mission my mission president warned that as there was a temple dedication coming up we could expect some unclean spirit stuff. It is just normal as a reaction to the coming temple. He told us that, if practical, to contact him before we did anything in this area but if we had to to go as directed by the Spirit. He also in some dark humor pointed out that sometimes an exorcism is not the proper course. Sometimes when there is a debased spirit in a body it is the only spirit in there and casting it out would kill it.

The experiences I had that I believe were authentic were different. There was a palpable feeling of despair and grittiness (if that makes sense). One time I was attacked and went into convulsions. It was strange. I had motor control but lost all fine motor control and just felt pure hate directed at me. Others in the house felt the same thing and some had similar symptoms and the house was surrounded by drunk hateful people screaming threats at us. I prayed and was shortly afterwards released.

Another time I went to give someone a blessing and felt a similar atmosphere. It was centered on a very troubled man. He was young and made some bad choices. I gave a blessing and in it rebuked them and commanded them to depart. The feeling fled and I felt something strange when it or they left. Knowing that guy the cynic in me says he invited them right back but I never found out what happened.

There was another time in my youth where I dabbled with demonology (more then just playing with a ouija board and similar silliness). That is the one time I thought I saw a diabolic “miracle” but I am not sure if there objectively was one.. The problem is that devils dull the mind and the senses and probably work more by illusion as they do actual power. I do not recommend the experience. I think I felt to some degree the paranoid fear that unclean spirits know and it was not pleasant. I ceased my experimentation after that and after I got rid of the damned thing or things (not swearing, literally what they are).

For the most part though they are rare. I have heard of more from people I trust but I do not think they are common and I suspect most members of the Church go their lives without such an experience. I think I am over quota and hope to never deal with it again. On the positive side I know enough not to be afraid of them unless I invited them.

[MiserereNobis]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

After having been involved in an exorcism I can say those nasty little unclean spirits are quite potent in some ways and impotent in many others.

Please do tell. I've been curious about LDS exorcisms. I've talked to the exorcist in our diocese and, while he was quite reserved about it all, he did share some harrowing experiences. The demon knew things about him and taunted him with it.

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

Please do tell. I've been curious about LDS exorcisms. I've talked to the exorcist in our diocese and, while he was quite reserved about it all, he did share some harrowing experiences. The demon knew things about him and taunted him with it.

I see you already shared, thanks.

In Catholicism, mental illness has to be ruled out by a professional before an exorcism can go forward. The rite of exorcism involves certain prayers and holy water. The key is to get the name of the demon. The exorcist I spoke with uses the pre-Vatican II rite (traditional Latin). He says it seems more effective, but also said it could just be that he is more confident using it.