The Church is potentially spending 129 million to purchase a London office building.

[SouthernMo]

5 hours ago, Wade Englund said:

If you understood correctly, you would realize that the violence is in the sinning of men and the just consequences therefrom. The God of our faith is merciful, having suffered unspeakable violence as a consequence of man, and He wishes to save us from our sinful and violent selves, though He can't do so against our will. 

In other words, you have it precisely backwards.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Not sure I see how god burning his kids is a natural consequence of sin.

Can you explain?

[SouthernMo]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm not trying to 'quell your concerns' at all. You seem to not want God to ever change the location of any of His children for any reason. That's like wanting parental assurance that no one will ever be put in timeout or sent to another room. I'm not sure anyone can help you with that concern.

I've just been trying to correct your misconception that Latter-day Saint belief is that all non-Christians will be removed from the earth at Christ's coming. The Millennial earth will be filled with good and virtuous Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, animists, Buddhists, Jains, atheists, agnostics and others. Over time, these people will all accept Jesus Christ, which shouldn't surprise us.

Mercifully, the wicked will get this same opportunity in their temporary hell as well. And if they embrace it, they too will be redeemed to a kingdom of glory, cleansed from all unrighteousness. It's a beautiful plan.

You keep saying this. It sounds all good, and loving, and the way you might hope it happens. But, again: please stay focused on those people who will be judged as heirs of the telestial kingdom.

D&C 76:82 clearly states that those who do not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus Christ will be telestial in glory.

Then, when we look at the gospel principles manual (since you accept this book as doctrinal) chapter 45, it clearly states that during the millennium, only those who will inherit the celestial and terrestrial kingdoms will be on the earth.

It seems to me that LDS doctrine is that anyone who has not accepted Christ and has a testimony of Him will not be on the earth during this 1000 year period.  Thus, according to LDS doctrine, non-Christians must be destroyed/removed from the earth to usher in the millennium.

Again, what am I missing?

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

It seems to me that LDS doctrine is that anyone who has not accepted Christ and has a testimony of Him will not be on the earth during this 1000 year period. Thus, according to LDS doctrine, non-Christians must be destroyed/removed from the earth to usher in the millennium.

Again, what am I missing?

I apologise that, once again, I genuinely don't know how to have a productive conversation with you.

I'll try one last time. In my earlier post that quoted from both Gospel Principles and the New Era, you will find the following statements:

Quote

People will still have their agency, and for a time many will be free to continue with their religions and ideas. Eventually everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is the Savior.

And:

Quote

Those remaining on the earth during the Millennium will be the good people of the earth—those who were righteous and just, regardless of their religion.

 

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

D&C 76:82 clearly states that those who do not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus Christ will be telestial in glory.

Even you use the future tense here: 'will be'. All kinds of people are good and honourable and virtuous and yet don't believe in or even know about Jesus Christ yet.

You seem to be missing the point that, in the end, everyone who isn't cast off into Outer Darkness will have accepted the Saviour, and even the Sons of Perdition will have acknowledged Him: 'Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ'.

I apologise, sincerely, but I honestly can't follow how your brain works. After a while, it starts to feel like we are rehearsing the same scene over and over again in an absurdist play.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Three more quotes in case they help:

Quote

“Some members of the Church have an erroneous idea that when the millennium comes all of the people are going to be swept off the earth except righteous members of the Church. That is not so. There will be millions of people, Catholics, Protestants, agnostics, Mohammedans, people of all classes, and of all beliefs, still permitted to remain upon the face of the earth, but they will be those who have lived clean lives, those who have been free from wickedness and corruption. All who belong, by virtue of their good lives, to the terrestrial order, as well as those who have kept the celestial law, will remain upon the face of the earth during the millennium.

“Eventually, however, the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea. But there will be need for the preaching of the gospel, after the millennium is brought in, until all men are either converted or pass away” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation,1:86–87).

And:

Quote

According to President Brigham Young, “there will be as many sects and parties then as now” (Journal of Discourses 11:275). On another occasion, President Young said: “In the millennium men will have the privilege of being Presbyterians, Methodists, or Infidels, but they will not have the privilege of treating the name and character of Deity as they have done heretofore. No, but every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the glory of God the Father that Jesus is the Christ” (Journal of Discourses 12:274).

And:

Quote

Thus there will be many churches on earth when the Millennium begins. False worship will continue among those whose desires are good, "who are honorable men of the earth," but who have been "blinded by the craftiness of men." (D&C 76:75.)" (McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, pp.651-652).

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[SouthernMo]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Two more quotes in case they help:

And:

 

Thanks for sharing. But this contradicts how I read D&C 76:82.

Too much Dogma in the LDS tradition. Conflicts are bound to arise.

[SouthernMo]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I apologise that, once again, I genuinely don't know how to have a productive conversation with you.

I'll try one last time. In my earlier post that quoted from both Gospel Principles and the New Era, you will find the following statements:

And:

 

Even you use the future tense here: 'will be'. All kinds of people are good and honourable and virtuous and yet don't believe in or even know about Jesus Christ yet.

You seem to be missing the point that, in the end, everyone who isn't cast off into Outer Darkness will have accepted the Saviour, and even the Sons of Perdition will have acknowledged Him: 'Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ'.

I apologise, sincerely, but I honestly can't follow how your brain works. After a while, it starts to feel like we are rehearsing the same scene over and over again in an absurdist play.

I appreciate you trying. I think we’re missing each other on how specific we view the situation. Your answers clearly indicate that all will work out in the end.

I’m pointing out that there is a doctrinal prescient for those who are not Christian to be removed from the earth at the beginning of the millennium.  Yet, as you point out, other sources deny this.

Also, it is interesting to me that in the gospel principles manual, we are taught that those who will inherit the terrestrial and celestial kingdom will be on the earth during the millennium. But, I’d always been taught that we are judged for a kingdom after the millennium.

When are we judged for which kingdom we will inherit?  Before, beginning, end, or after the millennium?

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Thanks for sharing. But this contradicts how I read D&C 76:82.

Too much Dogma in the LDS tradition. Conflicts are bound to arise.

Or maybe you just have a funny way of reading???

[SouthernMo]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Or maybe you just have a funny way of reading???

Maybe.  Hence, why I often ask for others perspectives and experience.  I’m often wrong.

[RevTestament]

13 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I appreciate you trying. I think we’re missing each other on how specific we view the situation. Your answers clearly indicate that all will work out in the end.

I’m pointing out that there is a doctrinal prescient for those who are not Christian to be removed from the earth at the beginning of the millennium.  Yet, as you point out, other sources deny this.

Also, it is interesting to me that in the gospel principles manual, we are taught that those who will inherit the terrestrial and celestial kingdom will be on the earth during the millennium. But, I’d always been taught that we are judged for a kingdom after the millennium.

When are we judged for which kingdom we will inherit?  Before, beginning, end, or after the millennium?

If everyone believes in Christ, Satan is bound, and the earth is at peace, what kind of kingdom is that? Does it have to be after we die to be heavenly? Revelation does tell us Satan will be bound up.

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

When are we judged for which kingdom we will inherit?  Before, beginning, end, or after the millennium?

I believe the scriptures teach that we will be judged at the beginning of the millennium.

[SouthernMo]

21 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

If everyone believes in Christ, Satan is bound, and the earth is at peace, what kind of kingdom is that? Does it have to be after we die to be heavenly? Revelation does tell us Satan will be bound up.

I don’t see your logic that if people believe in Christ that Satan is bound.

I believe in Christ, yet Satan still has influence over me.

explain?

[The Nehor]

Final Judgement is at the end of the Millenium following the last battle at the end of the Millenium.

The wicked will be consumed at the beginning of the Millenium by means that are not clear but it is described as “fire”.

[RevTestament]

38 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I don’t see your logic that if people believe in Christ that Satan is bound.

I believe in Christ, yet Satan still has influence over me.

explain?

Rev 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

We sin because of selfish desires. Satan knows this and uses them to try to lead us away. Satan being bound doesn't end our selfish desires, it just means people will understand how Satan works, and his ability to deceive them will be ended. People will begin to understand the gospel in its full import. 

I don't know you. I am certainly not going to tell you that Satan has influence over you. Maybe he does. Do you let your emotions get the better of you and drive you to sin? If so, maybe he does have influence over you, but often it is just our own selfish desires which drive us to do stuff.  That doesn't mean that Satan has power over you. He does use these to the extent he can. But with the gift of the Holy Ghost, we have the ability to not go astray and to know when we need to repent. I can't really answer better than that.

[Gray]

"In the coming end times, Israel will finally be free of Roman oppression, and the status of the wealthy and the poor will be reversed." - The eschaton according to some forgotten desert handyman.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Gray

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

I don’t see your logic that if people believe in Christ that Satan is bound.

I believe in Christ, yet Satan still has influence over me.

explain?

Maybe he's thinking of a verse from the BOM which states-

"Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men."

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A course I certainly wouldn't recommend. But you already knew that.

Yeah, but if happiness here is a prerequisite for happiness there then I have a long way to go.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Rev 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

We sin because of selfish desires. Satan knows this and uses them to try to lead us away. Satan being bound doesn't end our selfish desires, it just means people will understand how Satan works, and his ability to deceive them will be ended. People will begin to understand the gospel in its full import. 

I don't know you. I am certainly not going to tell you that Satan has influence over you. Maybe he does. Do you let your emotions get the better of you and drive you to sin? If so, maybe he does have influence over you, but often it is just our own selfish desires which drive us to do stuff.  That doesn't mean that Satan has power over you. He does use these to the extent he can. But with the gift of the Holy Ghost, we have the ability to not go astray and to know when we need to repent. I can't really answer better than that.

I know of the scriptures. I only doubt your equation that those who believe in Christ are not subject to satan’s influences.

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I know of the scriptures. I only doubt your equation that those who believe in Christ are not subject to satan’s influences.

The scriptures don't say Satan will have no influence - just that he will be bound. This may mean that his influence will not be sufficient to lead men astray. I imagine there will still be some sin. Indeed, I think there will be a lot of killing. I do believe Satan will be bound, but I do not believe it will be for a complete thousand years. I believe the process is starting. The millennium will have fighting and killing. This will all be part of the process of defeating Satan - he will get men to do the killing, but the lamb will overcome. I have found that reading too literally, sometimes causes issues, but I do appreciate your efforts to understand.

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

please stay focused on those people who will be judged as heirs of the telestial kingdom.

Semi-relevant tangent, but Johnny Cash does a good job at describing the millennium from the perspective of a nervous sinner:

Quote

 

There's a man, going 'round, taking names. And He decides who to free, and who to blame. Everybody won't be treated all the same. 
There'll be a golden ladder, reaching down, when the Man comes around. 

The hairs on your arm will stand up, at the terror in each sip, and in each sup. Will you partake of that last offered cup?
Or disappear into the potter's ground? When the Man comes around.

Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers! One hundred million angels singing! Multitudes are marching to the big kettledrum.
Voices calling, voices crying.  Some are born and some are dying.
It's Alpha and Omega's kingdom come

And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree.  (The virgins are all trimming their wicks.)
The whirlwind is in the thorn tree.  (It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.)

Till Armageddon no salaam, no shalom.  Then the father hen will call his chickens home.  The wise man will bow down before the throne.
And at his feet they'll cast their golden crowns, when the Man comes around.

Whoever is unjust let him be unjust still. Whoever is righteous let him be righteous still. Whoever is filthy let him be filthy still.
Listen to the words long written down, When the Man comes around.

 

 

[SouthernMo]

14 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

The scriptures don't say Satan will have no influence - just that he will be bound. This may mean that his influence will not be sufficient to lead men astray. I imagine there will still be some sin. Indeed, I think there will be a lot of killing. I do believe Satan will be bound, but I do not believe it will be for a complete thousand years. I believe the process is starting. The millennium will have fighting and killing. This will all be part of the process of defeating Satan - he will get men to do the killing, but the lamb will overcome. I have found that reading too literally, sometimes causes issues, but I do appreciate your efforts to understand.

It is confusing.  Literal/symbolic/doctrine/opinion/informed/uninformed all seem to mix together, but in a faith setting people can be passionate about how right they are.  I'd rather ask and get it sorted out.  I don't want to be right about anything.  I just want to see all the angles.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Maybe he's thinking of a verse from the BOM which states-

"Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men."

That sounds more like resisting diabolical influence and not like it ceases.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

That sounds more like resisting diabolical influence and not like it ceases.

I don't know.  Is there a difference between saying that someone who has power would never be able to use it and saying that someone's power is bound?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Too much Dogma in the LDS tradition. Conflicts are bound to arise.

Honestly, it seems to me the dogma is at your end insisting the one verse be taken without the additional context provided by additional revelation.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

When are we judged for which kingdom we will inherit?  Before, beginning, end, or after the millennium?

A certain minimum is required to get into the Millennium still living (those who have lived righteously according to amount of the law they have been given), what one does there when presented with the fullness over time probably determines our final destination.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Calm

[rchorse]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

That sounds more like resisting diabolical influence and not like it ceases.

A little of both:

1 Nephi 22:26

26 And because of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power; wherefore, he cannot be loosed for the space of many years; for he hath no power over the hearts of the people, for they dwell in righteousness, and the Holy One of Israel reigneth.