Church has become the only place where some of these women experience what they consider to be discrimination

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I am not sure being the only wife of an 8-year-old  is an improvement over polygamy.

😉

Definitely not a palatable image, lol, on many levels (8 year old with godly powers?)  I believe in eternal progression, so my belief is all spirits and bodies eventually grow up...and those of us elderly grow down perhaps, so we are all at prime marriage age in the end.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Calm

[phaedrus ut]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Outside the quote you provided there was no additional info on sexism and how they measured that, correct? 

It was one of a few listed items from their research that were specifically important to women. Another was....

Quote

"Female millennials are more likely than older members to say that they do not have enough say in the church’s programs and decision-making. “Feeling judged” was the top reason why women said they left the church."

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If I didn't miss that, I don't see how we can conclude anything about that key finding unless someone has access to more info.

More info like the link they published to their 2016 Next Mormons Survey? And of course the book. 

Phaedrus 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

It was one of a few listed items from their research that were specifically important to women. Another was....

 

More info like the link they published to their 2016 Next Mormons Survey? And of course the book. 

Phaedrus 

The Book would be most useful if anyone has it. 

[CA Steve]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Book would be most useful if anyone has it. 

It is not out yet. Not due to be released until Mar 1 this year.

[Calm]

Not seeing anything in the survey results that deal with sexism comparison,

Edited February 26, 2019 by Calm

[Amulek]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not seeing anyone in the survey results that deal with sexism comparison,

Nothing in the script jumps out at me as really being on point with respect to that either.

Wonder where they are getting that from then. The PEW surveys possibly?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I am not sure being the only wife of an 8-year-old  is an improvement over polygamy.

😉

Can you not conceptualize the irrelevance of time measured in mortality as compared to the infinity of eternity? Or am I just being humorless? 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

At least you are willing to share your opinion even though you admittedly don't know the context. 

Phaedrus 

Guilty as charged. And I’m afraid the topic doesn’t interest me enough to examine and evaluate the context. I’m only pointing out in principle that a good education does not necessarily insulate one from producing flawed or even inferior scholarship. 

[juliann]

If a woman thinks the worst discrimination is in the church, they are living under a rock. 

That is why hyperbole like this is damaging. I think the church is going to have to loosen its grip on women if they are going to survive. But good grief, it’s once a week and it’s voluntary. To compare that to what women face every other day of the week that can limit their ability to provide for their families  is absurd. 

So rather than discussing the very real discrimination in the church, Reiss has everyone arguing about what is worse. Real productive. 

[Calm]

 

21 minutes ago, juliann said:

If a woman thinks the worst discrimination is in the church, they are living under a rock. 

That is why hyperbole like this is damaging. I think the church is going to have to loosen its grip on women if they are going to survive. But good grief, it’s once a week and it’s voluntary. To compare that to what women face every other day of the week that can limit their ability to provide for their families  is absurd. 

So rather than discussing the very real discrimination in the church, Reiss has everyone arguing about what is worse. Real productive. 

This is my gut reaction, it just feels so impossible (for a blatant example of women expressing experience with sexism, think Me Too movement...these women live in a community that has none of that?)...I am hoping the book/specific research and not summaries does it much better.  If there are "some" women that feel that way, tell me what percentage and why.  I want well done stats to play with.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Calm

[katherine the great]

Okay I'm a woman so I'll chime in. Even though I'm part of the oldest generation interviewed, I feel much, much less discriminated against in the workplace now than I did thirty years ago. The church experience is somewhat better now than then, but I have to agree that simply by virtue of my sex, I am very limited in the type of leadership I can qualify for (fortunately I don't really desire that kind of responsibility at church). In my field, I'm accepted as an equal in every way to my male coworkers and my sex does not and cannot prevent me from advancing to the highest status my education and work history qualify me for. I'm not that bothered by my inability to be a true decision maker at church; partly because of my age and partly because I'm just not that ambitious. I can see why it might greatly bother younger women who are raised in a world where they are taught that qualified women can have any career they want, including traditionally male jobs.

[MustardSeed]

36 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Okay I'm a woman so I'll chime in. Even though I'm part of the oldest generation interviewed, I feel much, much less discriminated against in the workplace now than I did thirty years ago. The church experience is somewhat better now than then, but I have to agree that simply by virtue of my sex, I am very limited in the type of leadership I can qualify for (fortunately I don't really desire that kind of responsibility at church). In my field, I'm accepted as an equal in every way to my male coworkers and my sex does not and cannot prevent me from advancing to the highest status my education and work history qualify me for. I'm not that bothered by my inability to be a true decision maker at church; partly because of my age and partly because I'm just not that ambitious. I can see why it might greatly bother younger women who are raised in a world where they are taught that qualified women can have any career they want, including traditionally male jobs.

I identify with this strongly. 

I just don’t care because I don’t want more responsibility at church.  The fact that it’s not an option is “information” though . In truth, I don’t want to be in church leadership any more than i want to be an HOA president.  

But if HOA presidents had to be men, that would be laughably lame. Just saying. 

[BlueDreams]

On 2/25/2019 at 11:03 AM, phaedrus ut said:

Quote

Many work outside the home, are increasingly more educated, and have fewer children like their U.S. counterparts. “Church has become the only place where some of these women … experience what they consider to be discrimination,” Riess said. Female millennials are more likely than older members to say that they do not have enough say in the church’s programs and decision-making.

Unfortunately sexism and gender discrimination has been bad in many societies but I think the trend has been moving against this for a century.  In the secular world not only is discrimination based upon sex highly unethical but probably illegal.  I hadn't considered the perspective of a woman enjoying a life free from discrimination because of her gender everywhere but within the organization of the church.  

I'm the demographic that Jana Riess mentions: millenial woman who works outside the home (and will to some extent after baby), educated, and with currently fewer children. I do not relate to the comment that the church is the only place that I've experienced or seen discrimination and/or sexism. It could strongly be tied to my job of course. Themes of discrimination and sexism are fairly common in my work space. This can include medical discrimination (fairly common honestly), legal protections, family discriminatory beliefs, other cultural expectations, small rural communities, and yes church related discrimination. In my life, sexism takes on different flavors in differing avenues. Am I barred from differing positions or experiences at my work or at public venues due to my gender? Generally no....but I may be catcalled while walking down the street to said public venues. 

One thing I have noticed that may be effecting that sense is that I've noticed in my work that people are really really good at pinpointing the cultural problems within the church that effect them....and have a bit of a blindspot towards everything else that may have also had an effect. I do believe discrimination based on gender has reduced over the years, but we are far from a completely egalitarian society as a whole. The fact that they cannot see other forms of discrimination outside a church setting actually somewhat concerns me as a feminist.

Personally, overt discrimination outside a church setting has been rare in my life. I do feel there are limitations and an imbalance in the church based on gender that reduces our capacity to further create zion. I don't believe the answer is a simple one, but I do believe it's moving in the right/positive direction. I'm excited to see the further unfolding of the restoration. Covert discrimination, mysogyny, and sexism are something that I have found in and outside of the church. Often I view some of the sexist beliefs and assumptions in the church body are really just religiously-repackaged versions of what happens in the larger culture. Sometimes I can see some of the positive differences that have developed because of the Gospel, that often makes me feel a little safer. 

 

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

 

[Rivers]

We live in one of the most free and tolerant societies on the planet here in the United States.  So I will grant that the Church could seem discriminatory to women compared to the rest of society.  

Edited February 28, 2019 by Rivers

[Scott Lloyd]

Just a side comment: Any time a thread title exceeds three lines, it is in sore need of revising and condensing.