Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

[CAS]

In several scriptures we are taught about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yesterday in church someone was talking and they said how illogical it was that Moses would be told to raise up the brazen serpent and if people would look at it they would be healed. I think this statement got me thinking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It kind of sounds illogical that if you eat the fruit of a certain tree it will give you knowledge of good and evil and I have a few questions about this and just wonder what you think. I will take notes of what you say that I believe will help me understand this further, I am not presenting this in order to start an argument. Also, I am interested in your thoughts despite what religion you may be active in and if you wish to use references that you believe will help please do. I will discuss with you some of this if it seems that I can say something helpful.

1. What do you think this tree is? Do you think it is an actual tree or something else?

2. Do you think there was perhaps some kind of drug in the fruit of this tree or a compound that would in some way enlighten your mind as to what is good and what is evil?

3. Why do you think this fruit was given this ability to enlighten our minds about good and evil?

4. I do not doubt that God can make a tree which has fruit that can do this, if you also believe this what do you think this is telling us about God’s power over things in nature and His ability to make perfect things?

For your reference scriptures that I think are useful about this topic are: Genesis 2:9,17, 3:5,22; JST Genesis 2:12, 3:10,28, 4:11; 2 Nephi 2:18; Alma 42:3, Moses 3:9,17, 4:11,28, 5:11; and Abraham 5:9,13. There are a few more pertinent scriptures but for brevity these I think are the most relevant.

[Jane_Doe]

Answering my *personal* perspectives here.  Readily acknowledging that we don't have much revealed stuff here, so anyone else's personal perspective is equally valid.  

1 hour ago, CAS said:

1. What do you think this tree is? Do you think it is an actual tree or something else?

I'm inclined to think of it allegorically / metaphorically.   But that's a really slight preference.  

1 hour ago, CAS said:

2. Do you think there was perhaps some kind of drug in the fruit of this tree or a compound that would in some way enlighten your mind as to what is good and what is evil?

3. Why do you think this fruit was given this ability to enlighten our minds about good and evil?

4. I do not doubt that God can make a tree which has fruit that can do this, if you also believe this what do you think this is telling us about God’s power over things in nature and His ability to make perfect things?

Honestly I don't think there was a single thing special at all about the fruit itself (literal fruit or metaphorical).  Rather the change happened do to the doing something that was forbidden- now that regret / perspective / etc.

[The Nehor]

It is suggested that the fruit was really tasty. Was it sweet? Tart? Tasted like chicken?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, CAS said:

In several scriptures we are taught about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yesterday in church someone was talking and they said how illogical it was that Moses would be told to raise up the brazen serpent and if people would look at it they would be healed. I think this statement got me thinking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It kind of sounds illogical that if you eat the fruit of a certain tree it will give you knowledge of good and evil and I have a few questions about this and just wonder what you think. I will take notes of what you say that I believe will help me understand this further, I am not presenting this in order to start an argument. Also, I am interested in your thoughts despite what religion you may be active in and if you wish to use references that you believe will help please do. I will discuss with you some of this if it seems that I can say something helpful.

1. What do you think this tree is? Do you think it is an actual tree or something else?

2. Do you think there was perhaps some kind of drug in the fruit of this tree or a compound that would in some way enlighten your mind as to what is good and what is evil?

3. Why do you think this fruit was given this ability to enlighten our minds about good and evil?

4. I do not doubt that God can make a tree which has fruit that can do this, if you also believe this what do you think this is telling us about God’s power over things in nature and His ability to make perfect things?

For your reference scriptures that I think are useful about this topic are: Genesis 2:9,17, 3:5,22; JST Genesis 2:12, 3:10,28, 4:11; 2 Nephi 2:18; Alma 42:3, Moses 3:9,17, 4:11,28, 5:11; and Abraham 5:9,13. There are a few more pertinent scriptures but for brevity these I think are the most relevant. 

The gut and the brain are very tightly connected and coordinated. One's diet will certainly affect his understanding.

It might as well have been an actual tree and fruit, and for all I know they were. I think the physiology of different kingdoms or spheres differ, so who knows what it was about the fruit that was connected to the consequence of mortality. The fruit is a non-acting agent, so it has no ability but rather properties that are used by actors. I think God can change the world.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, CAS said:

In several scriptures we are taught about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yesterday in church someone was talking and they said how illogical it was that Moses would be told to raise up the brazen serpent and if people would look at it they would be healed. I think this statement got me thinking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It kind of sounds illogical that if you eat the fruit of a certain tree it will give you knowledge of good and evil and I have a few questions about this and just wonder what you think. I will take notes of what you say that I believe will help me understand this further, I am not presenting this in order to start an argument. Also, I am interested in your thoughts despite what religion you may be active in and if you wish to use references that you believe will help please do. I will discuss with you some of this if it seems that I can say something helpful.

1. What do you think this tree is? Do you think it is an actual tree or something else?

2. Do you think there was perhaps some kind of drug in the fruit of this tree or a compound that would in some way enlighten your mind as to what is good and what is evil?

3. Why do you think this fruit was given this ability to enlighten our minds about good and evil?

4. I do not doubt that God can make a tree which has fruit that can do this, if you also believe this what do you think this is telling us about God’s power over things in nature and His ability to make perfect things?

For your reference scriptures that I think are useful about this topic are: Genesis 2:9,17, 3:5,22; JST Genesis 2:12, 3:10,28, 4:11; 2 Nephi 2:18; Alma 42:3, Moses 3:9,17, 4:11,28, 5:11; and Abraham 5:9,13. There are a few more pertinent scriptures but for brevity these I think are the most relevant.

The entire Creation and Garden stories are liturgy, not historical narrative.  And the two trees, like Adam's rib, are figurative.  So too, Lucifer is not an actual snake in the grass, and all the words he and the others say are lines in a dramatic ritual through which each initiate makes oaths and covenants, and receives endowments of spiritual power (on their behalf, and on behalf of others).

Similarly, when the Israelites looked up at the Brazen Serpent and were healed, that was a type of Christ, who would be raised up so that we would be healed (think of the Caduceus).  Just like the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper, these are all holy rituals by which we enter into and renew our covenants -- in order to obtain eternal life.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, CAS said:

...they said how illogical it was that Moses would be told to raise up the brazen serpent and if people would look at it they would be healed.

Not at all clear why this is illogical. It might seem implausible, particularly to a modern mind. No one is quite sure what to make of Moses' serpent although many assume it has ties to Egypt in some way. It seems like most of those elements were expunged out of Judaism by the time of the Josiah reforms and certainly by the time the post-exilic compilation of canon. (Although the removal possibly starts with Hezekiah - see 2 Kings 18:4 although that's usually seen as written in the exile)

We know there were snake based cultic items in broader Canaan - often tied to Ashtoreth. Although at the time of Hezekiah the Egyptian symbol was rather popular too. Particularly winged snakes. It's worth noting that many scholars note there's no archaeological evidence of cultic reforms during Hezekiah so the 2 Kings reference may be Deuteronomists who were purging Judaism of any Egyptian or Canaanite similarities creating a bit of history to justify their reforms. The snake is a symbol of kingship in Egypt and you can see elements of that when Moses pits his snake against the Pharoah's.

It's also a symbol of life in Egypt, so the imagery by Moses makes complete sense contextually. The bigger question contextually isn't why Moses would do this, but why the children of Israel who come out of Egypt would be skeptical.

3 hours ago, CAS said:

1. What do you think this tree is? Do you think it is an actual tree or something else?

I think it's purely symbolic. The type of the tree varies depending upon the culture. So in Egypt it's a kind of evergreen (often with a lotus growing on the ends) called a persea. The fruit is almond shaped. It's symbolic of Osiris' heart and eating it gives eternal life. In Nephi's vision the fruit appears to be manna but has some Canaanite Ashtoreth imagery as well. 

But I doubt there's a real tree.

 

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, CAS said:

In several scriptures we are taught about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yesterday in church someone was talking and they said how illogical it was that Moses would be told to raise up the brazen serpent and if people would look at it they would be healed. I think this statement got me thinking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It kind of sounds illogical that if you eat the fruit of a certain tree it will give you knowledge of good and evil and I have a few questions about this and just wonder what you think. I will take notes of what you say that I believe will help me understand this further, I am not presenting this in order to start an argument. Also, I am interested in your thoughts despite what religion you may be active in and if you wish to use references that you believe will help please do. I will discuss with you some of this if it seems that I can say something helpful.

1. What do you think this tree is? Do you think it is an actual tree or something else?

Of course it is not an actual physical tree - no more than the tree of life is, or that the "days" are actual modern days. The best way I can describe the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is to liken it to the Word. Before the law was given, people were innocent - Adam was innocent. Do you remember what the endowment ordinance says?

Gen 3 :22 And the Lord(Yahovah) God(Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

4 hours ago, CAS said:

2. Do you think there was perhaps some kind of drug in the fruit of this tree or a compound that would in some way enlighten your mind as to what is good and what is evil?

Of course not. See above.

4 hours ago, CAS said:

3. Why do you think this fruit was given this ability to enlighten our minds about good and evil?

The fruit of learning what is wrong or against God's will is to become enlightened as He is/became.

4 hours ago, CAS said:

4. I do not doubt that God can make a tree which has fruit that can do this, if you also believe this what do you think this is telling us about God’s power over things in nature and His ability to make perfect things?

Again see above. 

4 hours ago, CAS said:

For your reference scriptures that I think are useful about this topic are: Genesis 2:9,17, 3:5,22; JST Genesis 2:12, 3:10,28, 4:11; 2 Nephi 2:18; Alma 42:3, Moses 3:9,17, 4:11,28, 5:11; and Abraham 5:9,13. There are a few more pertinent scriptures but for brevity these I think are the most relevant.

I have a slightly different take on the brazen serpent. Yeshua was not the brazen serpent. Looking upon the brazen serpent was to overcome evil like Christ did - In this way it is a likeness off Christ to do so. Looking on evil and overcoming it without fear rather than trying to run from all the serpents trying to bite them was the only way to really overcome or "escape" evil/death. In other words learning to become a man in the gospel is the ultimate lesson. Cheers

[The Nehor]

As a fan of fruit I still hope it is real.

[JAHS]

I don't think we know for sure if the trees were real trees or just being used as symbols:

Regarding the trees in Eden,  Elder Bruce R. McConkie said, "the account is speaking figuratively. What is meant by partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that our first parents complied with whatever laws were involved so that their bodies would change from their state of paradisiacal immortality to a state of natural mortality."  
He also said: "We do not know how the fall was accomplished any more than we know how the Lord caused the earth to come into being and to spin through the heavens in its paradisiacal state." 
(MAN ADAM by Robert L. Millet, Joseph Fielding McConkie)

 

[CAS]

I personally find the input fascinating and appreciate it very much.

[MustardSeed]

I always thought the fruit was sex until someone *****no CFR here**** gave a talk that said it was a sin to even suggest such a thing. 

 

I have no idea what really happened but I think of it quietly as symbolic of a simple lesson in obedience. 

[JAHS]

13 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I always thought the fruit was sex until someone *****no CFR here**** gave a talk that said it was a sin to even suggest such a thing. 

 

I have no idea what really happened but I think of it quietly as symbolic of a simple lesson in obedience. 

According to LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith,
"The transgression of Adam did not involve sex sin as some falsely believe and teach. Adam and Eve were married by the Lord while they were yet immortal beings in the Garden of Eden and before death entered the world" (DS 1:114-15; cf. JC, pp. 29-31)."

[MustardSeed]

13 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Adam and Eve were married by the Lord while they were yet immortal beings in the Garden of Eden and before death entered the world" (DS 1:114-15; cf. JC, pp. 29-31)."

I can accept but would prefer to understand.  What does this have to do with sex? Genuinely asking, no trap door here

[JAHS]

34 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I can accept but would prefer to understand.  What does this have to do with sex? Genuinely asking, no trap door here

Many believe that Adam and Eve having sex outside the bonds of marriage is the sin that got them cast out of Eden. It was not because they were married and therefore could not have committed that sin.
In fact its probable they did not even have sex until after they were cast out. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by JAHS

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

Many believe that Adam and Eve having sex outside the bonds on marriage is the sin that got them cast out of Eden. It was not because they were married and therefore could not have committed that sin.
In fact its probable they did not even have sex until after they were cast out. 

Ok I thought they were married from the get go but that they were innocent , meaning sex and pleasure that is preceded by temptation (as is food) was not on the radar until satan came in the scene and introduced temptation, and lusts of the flesh. I am risking real dangers here if I mention how I thought eve was introduced to it by satan but will let you read between my lines. 

Its so logical to me that way, especially since they couldn’t have kids without the fall. Or at least, didn’t. 

And while to some that might make it a dirty story, I think it’s very symbolic and logical but apparently wrong.  Back to confusion I go.

[strappinglad]

Where does one draw the line between literal and figurative? Is physical death literal or figurative? I vote literal. How about spiritual death? Is there an actual spiritual change to the spirit body when it undergoes spiritual death, or is that a metaphor? Is the resurrection literal or figurative? Theologians over the centuries have argued about it. 

John says he "ate" a little book. Perhaps Adam and Eve " ate " a fruit which contained billions of nanobots which...but I digress. 

[Maidservant]

13 hours ago, CAS said:

In several scriptures we are taught about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yesterday in church someone was talking and they said how illogical it was that Moses would be told to raise up the brazen serpent and if people would look at it they would be healed. I think this statement got me thinking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It kind of sounds illogical that if you eat the fruit of a certain tree it will give you knowledge of good and evil and I have a few questions about this and just wonder what you think. I will take notes of what you say that I believe will help me understand this further, I am not presenting this in order to start an argument. Also, I am interested in your thoughts despite what religion you may be active in and if you wish to use references that you believe will help please do. I will discuss with you some of this if it seems that I can say something helpful.

1. What do you think this tree is? Do you think it is an actual tree or something else?

2. Do you think there was perhaps some kind of drug in the fruit of this tree or a compound that would in some way enlighten your mind as to what is good and what is evil?

3. Why do you think this fruit was given this ability to enlighten our minds about good and evil?

4. I do not doubt that God can make a tree which has fruit that can do this, if you also believe this what do you think this is telling us about God’s power over things in nature and His ability to make perfect things?

For your reference scriptures that I think are useful about this topic are: Genesis 2:9,17, 3:5,22; JST Genesis 2:12, 3:10,28, 4:11; 2 Nephi 2:18; Alma 42:3, Moses 3:9,17, 4:11,28, 5:11; and Abraham 5:9,13. There are a few more pertinent scriptures but for brevity these I think are the most relevant.

For me, it represents our voluntary choice to enter mortality from the position of our pre-mortal life, knowing it would be a state unlike the one we previously enjoyed (of glory), and it would be a descent (the descent before and tied into the ascent).  But our participation would have purpose and we would gain treasure of which we could not gain had we remained in our glory.  We will (or may) rise with more glory because of our passage here.  Participating in mortality is "eating the fruit".

I also notice that quite often (not always) the scriptural description is that we would know the 'good from the evil' NOT 'know good and evil'.  I find this choice of phrase very telling, and that the 'knowing the good from the evil' is a much different quest than 'knowing good and evil'.  I no longer think that we are here in order to understand the difference between good and evil; I don't think that's it at all.  I think we are here to encounter hazards from which we will gain treasure, and gain knowledge of LOVE by experience in ways we never could when we once lived in a place without evil.  We are wrestling with the angel for our blessing.

Not least, even if we consider that we must learn the good and not the evil, this is not the difference between two hands, or absolutes.  The scales of our eyes--being opened--are successively being removed, and what we once called good, we now see as evil, and we will continue to rise in this way through much blindness. 

Similarly, when I once had a choice I had to make between two bad choices (whether to work and be away from home so my kids could eat yet be emotionally damaged by my absence; or stay home with them as I desired yet be hungry and without our needs), I told my mother this.  I said, I get how to choose between good and evil; I get how to choose between two good things (good, better, best); but how do you choose between two really bad things?"  My mother said, "Oh, you mean like Eve?"  I got it, I got it, I got it.  Epiphany.

Symbolically, I think that the pomegranate actually is considered the fruit in some cultures or tellings.  The pomegranate is perhaps the most ancient fruit, one of the most ancient agricultures, and it is considered a sacred fruit.  It may be interesting for you to study the symbology of the pomegranate further.  The pomegranate "bleeds".   And it wears a crown; which is why people ever decided that royalty ought to wear a crown, because pomegranate first did.  By the way "pom" means "apple".  The pomegranate also has the bitter and the sweet, the soft and the hard, in its seed/fruit which is eaten.  The hard, bitter seed is horrible, and the soft, sweet flesh is exquisite.  But they must be eaten together, and so the choice for one is the choice for the other.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Maidservant

[CAS]

I have just completed looking over every reference on this subject that I have access to and reading all of your comments.

It is now my belief that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is an actual tree and that it has actual fruit and that Adam and Eve actually partook of this fruit and thereby obtained this knowledge and brought about the fall. I thought that this tree might have only been symbolical or only figurative or metaphorical, but I am now convinced that it is real, literal. I have read the statements of its figurative and symbolical meanings, however, they do not show nor do they seem meant to reveal that the tree was not actual, only that there is polysemy attached to the tree or what it also represents. This is my opinion, but as far as I can tell, using the faulty brain I have, this is correct. I will address my accompanying questions later.  Again, thank you for your input on this subject.

[pogi]

The tree, in my opinion, represents the light of Christ - knowledge of good and evil (Moroni 7).  Like the light of Christ, the tree works based on obedience/disobedience.  Obedience gives us knowledge of good, disobedience gives us knowledge of evil.  It is my opinion that the Lord was preparing Adam and Eve to partake of the sacrament of the fruit of the tree of knowledge (1 Nephi 3:7), which is essential for exaltation.  

Instead of having their eyes opened first to good by receiving the fruit from the hand of the Lord, their eyes were first opened to evil and toxic shame, causing them to hide from God, by receiving the fruit from the hand of Lucifer.

Edited February 26, 2019 by pogi

[Nofear]

I agree with pogi in that I think partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is when Adam and Eve, with their mortal bodies, were able to discern the Light of Christ.
"Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light." D&C 93:31

I also believe that Adam and Eve would have eventually been invited to partake of the fruit without condemnation after a suitable amount of preparation. That this was the way it had been done on countless words prior. Lucifer, however, sought to disrupt the flow of things by prematurely getting Adam and Eve to partake before they had been properly prepared with instruction and experience in the Garden.

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Nofear said:

I agree with pogi...

Really?  That's a first on this topic for me. 

[Maidservant]

17 hours ago, CAS said:

I have just completed looking over every reference on this subject that I have access to and reading all of your comments.

It is now my belief that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is an actual tree and that it has actual fruit and that Adam and Eve actually partook of this fruit and thereby obtained this knowledge and brought about the fall. I thought that this tree might have only been symbolical or only figurative or metaphorical, but I am now convinced that it is real, literal. I have read the statements of its figurative and symbolical meanings, however, they do not show nor do they seem meant to reveal that the tree was not actual, only that there is polysemy attached to the tree or what it also represents. This is my opinion, but as far as I can tell, using the faulty brain I have, this is correct. I will address my accompanying questions later.  Again, thank you for your input on this subject.

Have you been to the temple for your endowment?  If not, don't make any conclusions until then.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Maidservant

[Maidservant]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

 by receiving the fruit from the hand of Lucifer.

 

6 hours ago, Nofear said:

I also believe that Adam and Eve would have eventually been invited to partake of the fruit without condemnation after a suitable amount of preparation. That this was the way it had been done on countless words prior. Lucifer, however, sought to disrupt the flow of things by prematurely getting Adam and Eve to partake before they had been properly prepared with instruction and experience in the Garden.

Interesting.  I do disagree.  I think the way that it happens (not 'has happened') is exactly how it's supposed to go.  The testing itself provides the 'knowledge'.  How else in the world would one obtain knowledge?  Knowledge is not mental information, in my view.  Knowledge is the embodiment of charity, the embodiment of all we could learn by faith, which really is work, creation, growth, and the law of the harvest.  It can't be handed to anyone.  Knowledge comes only by traversing through the cherubim and the flaming sword.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

 

Interesting.  I do disagree.  I think the way that it happens (not 'has happened') is exactly how it's supposed to go.  The testing itself provides the 'knowledge'.  How else in the world would one obtain knowledge?  Knowledge is not mental information, in my view.  Knowledge is the embodiment of charity, the embodiment of all we could learn by faith, which really is work, creation, growth, and the law of the harvest.  It can't be handed to anyone.  Knowledge comes only by traversing through the cherubim and the flaming sword.

I don't think my theory disagrees that work, and life experience play roles in acquiring any type of knowledge.  Keep in mind, we are talking about a specific kind of knowledge here.  Adam and Eve had plenty of knowledge before partaking of the fruit, but they had no moral compass - no way to distinguish good from evil.  As I stated, the light of Christ and the experience of obedience/disobedience is required for the acquisition of moral knowledge. 

So, I 'm not sure what you disagree with exactly.  Do you disagree that the tree represents the light of Christ?  Do you disagree that the light of Christ is what allows us to know good and evil?  Or, do you disagree that the fruit would have been provided through obedience?  I think we likely both acknowledge that disobedience is not the ONLY way to acquire knowledge - so why should we consider that it was the ONLY way for Adam and Eve?  So what further instruction would God have given Adam and Eve had they obeyed?  We will never know because they disobeyed before the promised further knowledge was delivered.

Quote

Knowledge comes only by traversing through the cherubim and the flaming sword.

Keep in mind that it was not the tree of knowledge that was being guarded by cherubim and a flaming sword, but I get what you are saying.  

Cheap knowledge was freely handed to them through the experience of disobedience- no cherub, no flaming sword, no traversing anything required.  Typical of Satan to offer the appeal of cheap and instant gratification.  I believe the Lord was preparing them for something more noble - something worth waiting and working for - a knowledge only gained through persistent obedience inn the face of temptation.  I believe that a way of obedience would have been prepared for them (1 Nephi 3:7). 

I am not saying that they could have lived eternally without transgressing, they were human and would have fallen eventually, I am simply suggesting that maybe it didn't have to happen the way it did.  I don't believe the Lord gives commands without preparing a way to obey and fulfill his will. I don't believe the Lord commands against his will either. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by pogi

[CAS]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

Have you been to the temple for your endowment?  If not, don't make any conclusions until then.

Yes, I have. Even with my endowment (1981) and the many I have done for others I still was not certain-mainly because I had never seriously questioned it-until recently, as far as I myself am concerned I believe it is a real tree with a lot of meanings attached to it, but a real tree and real fruit and I have a good feeling about believing this. My wife on the other hand says it doesn't matter. Which I find that comical. I don't think whether I believe the tree is real or not matters much, so I am not actually worried about it either way. That is pretty much where I stand on this subject.