Accepting God's Will

[changed]

7 minutes ago, Buffy said:

Bible translation can get tricky.  I too, have heard that "inn" actually translates into "guest room".  She went home to her mother, like all Jewish women did, to give birth.  She would have been attended by her mother and aunts.  He wasn't born in the guest room.  He was born in another room in the house. 

I think your question is a very good one and would be a good stepping stone to thoughtful discussion.  However, your responses on this board have seemed caustic, so if that's is what you plan to do in Church, please don't.  Many of us go to at least try and be edified and worship with fellow believers, not to fight.

 

Sorry for being caustic - regardless of the details, what do you see as fighting God's will vs. accepting it?  

If you study and get a good job - was it God's will or your own work, your own willpower that got you there?  A bit of both I guess?  

Health issues - God's will or genetics and environment?  

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by changed

[Calm]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+2&version=NIV

Quote

2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register.

4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

No " barn" or "stable" mentioned.

Buffy, I agree with what you said except I think it more likely from Joseph's side of the family due to the need to go to his house and line (though Mary's family could have lived there as well).  I also don't know of Jewish societies of the time in detail, but others when married, the wife is included into the husband's family more and it is his mother and unwed sisters, wives of his brothers who are the ones that would be involved....along with any other women of the neighborhood available.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Calm

[Buffy]

I agree with you - we are to problem solve and do what we can improve our situation.  That is why we are given challenges in the first place.  I don't think for a minute you are supposed to just sit and take it.

[let’s roll]

I once took my kids to Tijuana to build a one room home on a landfill for a family that had been living under a tarp.  My kids commented that they had never met such happy children.  I suggested that moving from a tarp home to a one room home might be a reason for their happiness.  My kids replied all the kids they met were happy, even those that weren’t moving into the one room home and still living in a landfill under tarps.

[changed]

29 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Rather than imposing my viewpoint on someone who lived in a way different time and place then me, I'll just use an example from my own life:

This past year I had two miscarriages, both of which had life-threatening complications for me.  It's been a miserable ride in a lot of ways.  Now, that doesn't mean I sat around and did nothing- there was a LOT of advocating for health care, doing what I could myself, etc.  But still life does go down miserable roads sometimes.  I don't think it was "God's will for this to happen"- no I think biology is messy and sometimes downright miserable.  That's just life.   I still advocate for myself the best I can.  I still trust in God the best I can.  I still listen to God's will the best I can.  None of those are contradictory with each other.  

If you want to talk about abuse and this, then I'm cool talking about that as well.  Not as some hypothetical, but as someone who's been there first hand.

Thanks for sharing, and so sorry - I've miscarried too.  I guess I get frustrated as I can ID cause/effect chains for everything in life which leaves little room for "God did it".  The proactive mindset of - research, work, problem solve, you can dig yourself out - is empowering to me.  The mindset of - bow your head and submit to whatever is inflicted on you by God - leaves me feeling helpless.... relying on my own two feet is the only thing that gives me hope. Accepting pain as just part of nature rather than curse from God... My mind feels healthier to just chuck it all up to natural laws.

...a bird does not have to fear the branch breaking - rely on it's own wings...

Submit to God?  It feels healthier to rephrase as "acknowledge and understand the laws of nature, prepare study and work on realistic changes you can accomplish.

Submit - not an action word, it sounds like a victim word.

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by changed

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, changed said:

 Health issues - God's will or genetics and environment?  

One of my prior bishop's has had a life full of really really difficult health issues.  He was diagnosed with cancer as a teenager, suffered through chemo and bone marrow biopsies to get that in complete remission, only to be diagnosed with stage four lung cancer (with only days or hours to live) a few months later.  He survived that (which included a lot of suffering and permanently damaged his heart, which is often in heart failure) but has had multiple other cancers throughout his life (he's in his late 40s) due to the radiation.  The muscles in his throat are frozen because of nerve damage and they sometimes spasm and slam shut, causing him to pass out (and come close to dying).  His lungs are damaged and he is always in oxygen deficiency (his lips are always blue).  The list goes on (he's written a book called Make Room for the Miracle that talks about a lot of it).

He was just down here from Montana a couple of months ago giving a fireside to the youth.  He's a motivational speaker by profession and travels the country, doing team workshops and stuff for companies like Exxon.  During his fireside he said that he has no doubt that it was God's will for him to go through all that he has because of all of the amazing blessings that it as brought into his life, the most important of which is his relationship with God, which is a directly result of all that he has been through.

So while I don't believe that health issues are always God's will I do think that sometimes they can be.   

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Although I no longer label myself as LDS, I will be attending church in order to stay connected with friends and family.  I have also decided to study  "Come follow me" and will be commenting and asking questions rather than being silent as I have been in the past.   I wanted to run my questions past you all as a trial run if you don't mind.  

 

Pg7 - accepting God's will.

How do you know what God's will is? 

I don't think you can know what God's will is.  You feel good about doing something or doing it a certain way and let the results pile in.  Some say God works on us individually, guiding us through our own senses, or something.  So be it, but I don't know we can know for certain when it's God's will or not.  Some say you do what feels best and if it's good that means its of God, or something.  Well, if you don't do it the other way you'll never know if the other way was better or not.  

God's will is nothing more than what we assume at any given time, it seems to me.  

1 hour ago, changed said:

There are many things in my life I don't accept, and have vehemently opposed and succeeded in changing.  If I was Mary, I would not have given birth in a stable - would not have accepted that as God's will, I would have come prepared, had reservations- would have fought until I had what I wanted.  

The story in the NT is likely just that, a story.  I wouldn't put too much stock in it.  

1 hour ago, changed said:

I don't think God wants us to submit to miserable conditions- I think He also expects us to be self reliant. 

Thoughts?

Beats me.  is there a God and does he have wants and desires for us?  If he is there, created all things and us, and all of that, then it seems to me he'd have to want us to submit to miserable conditions at times.  Otherwise he'd make it so we wouldn't have to live in the miserable at all.  He'd have made things so it wouldn't be miserable at all.  But then that puts us in the weird position of having to accept that God set us up to have to struggle through misery and all of that.  I mean it makes the issue much tougher when we consider throughout the world's history there have been people who had to suffer in life in ways most of us can't possible understand, while the rest of us suffer some, certainly have difficulties but don't really know what its' like to suffer the way others have.  

[Calm]

Quote

Strong's Number G2646 matches the Greek κατάλυμα (katalyma),
which occurs 3 times in 3 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

View results using the NASB Greek concordance

TOOLS

 Mar 14:14

And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, G2646 where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

TOOLS

 Luk 2:7

And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. G2646

TOOLS

 Luk 22:11

And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, G2646where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2646&t=KJV

[changed]

27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

No, but sometimes misery is a consequences of mortality and agency, and us living in a fallen world and being impacted by agency is His will. 

God wanted Eve to eat the fruit? Gods will for us to live with war, famine, abuse, ignorance? Gods will for all the different religious groups to exist etc. 

I don't know, I would prefer to believe anything evil or painful, anything divisive is not Gods will, to believe God did not ex-nihlo create everything including creating evil.. to believe much exists that was not created or willed by God.

Edited January 4, 2019 by changed

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Compare Elizabeth and Zacharias to Sarah and Abraham. 

Sarah was a problem solver - she knew she was barren, did not just sit around, she solved it by giving Abraham Hagar.  

Elizabeth was barren - was Elizabeth lesser than Sarah because Elizabeth refused to use a handmaid?  

Sarah vs Elizabeth- who better accepted God's will?

Sarah and Abraham were extremely well off and had loads of servants.  I suspect that Elizabeth didn't have a handmaid.

They both accepted God's will according to their circumstances. 

When my wife died, I was very sad and would have welcomed following her -- if it had been God's will -- but God had other plans for me.  Through what seemed to be rather extraordinary circumstances, I became acquainted with a widow living in another country, and I uprooted my life to be with her.  I am living in interesting times, looking forward to what might happen between now and what happens later.  And accepting His will concerning me.

[JAHS]

45 minutes ago, changed said:

How does God help?  ...God helps those who help themselves...

That's true. But God also helps by inspiring others to help you.  He also helps by giving you the strength to endure the hardship. 

[Stargazer]

1 minute ago, changed said:

God wanted Eve to eat the fruit? Gods will for us to live with war, famine, abuse, ignorance? Gods will for all the different religious groups to exist etc. 

I don't know, I would prefer to believe anything evil or painful, anything divisive is not Gods will, to believe God did not ex-nihlo create everything including creating evil.. to believe much exists that was not created or willed by God.

You know, I kind of think that God doesn't want war, famine, abuse and ignorance.  But people, being people, supply circumstances that we must face because we were put here to deal with what comes.  And that is God's will: to confront your choices and make them.  It's a test, and that is the will of God.

Or should you hide in a corner and complain about the weather?

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, changed said:

God wanted Eve to eat the fruit? Gods will for us to live with war, famine, abuse, ignorance? Gods will for all the different religious groups to exist etc. 

I don't know, I would prefer to believe anything evil or painful, anything divisive is not Gods will, to believe God did not ex-nihlo create everything including creating evil.. to believe much exists that was not created or willed by God.

God's will was for us to learn the difference between good and evil, experience opposition, and use agency to hopefully learn to choose the good, which means living in a fallen world.  It's not HIs will that we live with war, famine, abuse, ignorance, etc, but if people choose those things, He allows them too.

[changed]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

One of my prior bishop's has had a life full of really really difficult health issues.  He was diagnosed with cancer as a teenager, suffered through chemo and bone marrow biopsies to get that in complete remission, only to be diagnosed with stage four lung cancer (with only days or hours to live) a few months later.  He survived that (which included a lot of suffering and permanently damaged his heart, which is often in heart failure) but has had multiple other cancers throughout his life (he's in his late 40s) due to the radiation.  The muscles in his throat are frozen because of nerve damage and they sometimes spasm and slam shut, causing him to pass out (and come close to dying).  His lungs are damaged and he is always in oxygen deficiency (his lips are always blue).  The list goes on (he's written a book called Make Room for the Miracle that talks about a lot of it).

He was just down here from Montana a couple of months ago giving a fireside to the youth.  He's a motivational speaker by profession and travels the country, doing team workshops and stuff for companies like Exxon.  During his fireside he said that he has no doubt that it was God's will for him to go through all that he has because of all of the amazing blessings that it as brought into his life, the most important of which is his relationship with God, which is a directly result of all that he has been through.

So while I don't believe that health issues are always God's will I do think that sometimes they can be.   

On another Buddihst site we had a discussion on human worth / Meaning/Purpose etc.  Instead of defining worth / purpose as solving problems (which requires having problems) ... well, I won't go into their answers - what is everyone's opinion on the main Purpose for life?  Let's say it's billions of years from now, you live in heaven, all problems are solved - what will the motivational speakers of heaven talk about?  Just relive the painful days of mortality to feel good?  Can we all be infinitely and eternally happy when all tears are wiped away - or is everyone clinging to eternal conflict?

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, changed said:

On another Buddihst site we had a discussion on human worth / Meaning/Purpose etc.  Instead of defining worth / purpose as solving problems (which requires having problems) ... well, I won't go into their answers - what is everyone's opinion on the main Purpose for life?  Let's say it's billions of years from now, you live in heaven, all problems are solved - what will the motivational speakers of heaven talk about?  Just relive the painful days of mortality to feel good?  Can we all be infinitely and eternally happy when all tears are wiped away - or is everyone clinging to eternal conflict?

I think that our purpose will be the same as God's purpose right now:  To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of others.  

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, changed said:

On another Buddihst site we had a discussion on human worth / Meaning/Purpose etc.  Instead of defining worth / purpose as solving problems (which requires having problems) ... well, I won't go into their answers - what is everyone's opinion on the main Purpose for life?  Let's say it's billions of years from now, you live in heaven, all problems are solved - what will the motivational speakers of heaven talk about?  Just relive the painful days of mortality to feel good?  Can we all be infinitely and eternally happy when all tears are wiped away - or is everyone clinging to eternal conflict?

The purpose is to find happiness. Experiencing misery for a short time is part of making that eternal happiness sweet. I think I have had enough misery now. Can someone please turn off the misery faucet?

Edited January 4, 2019 by The Nehor

[changed]

22 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't think you can know what God's will is.  You feel good about doing something or doing it a certain way and let the results pile in.  Some say God works on us individually, guiding us through our own senses, or something.  So be it, but I don't know we can know for certain when it's God's will or not.  Some say you do what feels best and if it's good that means its of God, or something.  Well, if you don't do it the other way you'll never know if the other way was better or not.  

God's will is nothing more than what we assume at any given time, it seems to me.  

The story in the NT is likely just that, a story.  I wouldn't put too much stock in it.  

Beats me.  is there a God and does he have wants and desires for us?  If he is there, created all things and us, and all of that, then it seems to me he'd have to want us to submit to miserable conditions at times.  Otherwise he'd make it so we wouldn't have to live in the miserable at all.  He'd have made things so it wouldn't be miserable at all.  But then that puts us in the weird position of having to accept that God set us up to have to struggle through misery and all of that.  I mean it makes the issue much tougher when we consider throughout the world's history there have been people who had to suffer in life in ways most of us can't possible understand, while the rest of us suffer some, certainly have difficulties but don't really know what its' like to suffer the way others have.  

If we keep who we are when we cross the veil, perhaps heaven is not so different from Earth - just a bunch of countries and different groups, none all powerful, none with all the answers.... so let's say you're in the spirit world trying to win people over to your little tribe, what do you say?  What brings everyone the most comfort?  

Do I seek comfort above reality?  Some people ignore reality their entire life - refuse to read anything that might change their viewpoint... but they are happy, so whatever works..

[changed]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that our purpose will be the same as God's purpose right now:  To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of others.  

Do you believe there will ever be a time when there are no more others to "save", a time where all intelligence are refined.... 

What would you enjoy more - regardless of beliefs - what would you enjoy more

Eternally being a teacher (requiring others to eternally need help), or.

Eternally living in unity - equality - respect - no hierarchy, no teachers or students, only peers.

 

I prefer being around peers... an infinite number of songs to compose, worlds to garden.  To me heaven is creativity and seeing others face fo face - not saving others.... at least that is what I hope for.

Edited January 4, 2019 by changed

[changed]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

How do you know there weren't any other prego ladies or newborns among them?

Haha, the number of possible different scenarios are endless.  Makes you realize how many details are left out, and how many details we all fill in with our personal narratives.

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, changed said:

everyone's opinion on the main Purpose for life? 

In mortality or the eternities?

If the first...to learn who we are and want to be when not under the extremely powerful, though wonderful and therefore likely overwhelming shadow of our heavenly parents.

If the latter, fulfilling the dreams we figured out we really wanted through mortality and helping others do the same.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, changed said:

Although I no longer label myself as LDS, I will be attending church in order to stay connected with friends and family.  I have also decided to study  "Come follow me" and will be commenting and asking questions rather than being silent as I have been in the past.   I wanted to run my questions past you all as a trial run if you don't mind. 

Pg7 - accepting God's will.

How do you know what God's will is? 

There are many things in my life I don't accept, and have vehemently opposed and succeeded in changing.  If I was Mary, I would not have given birth in a stable - would not have accepted that as God's will, I would have come prepared, had reservations- would have fought until I had what I wanted.  

I don't think God wants us to submit to miserable conditions- I think He also expects us to be self reliant. 

Thoughts?

I think knowing what His will is on any particular subject is most important. Sometimes we seek it (when we have a need and have the faith to look to Him), and sometimes it comes to us unexpectedly (as in Mary’s example). We recognize His will in our thoughts and feelings when we hear it, whether that be by reading, hearing another person, or from within ourselves. It is usually impressed enough upon us that we will consider it to be our conscience, a revelation from God, or a witness of the Holy Ghost.

When you just go ahead and decide to do something without much thought of God, it is your will whether it happens to be aligned with God’s will or not. He may reach out to you anyway!

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, changed said:

Do you believe there will ever be a time when there are no more others to "save", a time where all intelligence are refined.... 

I really don't know.

Quote

 

What would you enjoy more - regardless of beliefs - what would you enjoy more

Eternally being a teacher (requiring others to eternally need help), or.

Eternally living in unity - equality - respect - no hierarchy, no teachers or students, only peers.

 

I prefer being around peers... an infinite number of songs to compose, worlds to garden.  To me heaven is creativity and seeing others face fo face - not saving others.... at least that is what I hope for.

 

I don't think it makes sense to reduce 'bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of others' to being a teacher.  I look at it as being similar to being a mother/aunt/grandmother/sister.  Teaching is certainly a part of being a mother but being a mother is way more than just that.  As I've learned with my own relationship with my mother as I've grown, it includes mutual respect and being together as peers, as much as all the other aspects.

I'm not there yet (not ever close), but I'm hopeful that eventually I will be as selfless as Christ and not find anything more fulfilling than serving and helping others.  I can't imagine any version of Heaven that doesn't include service or  sometimes being in need of the talents, perspective, or time of others.  I think that unity comes when people are united in purpose.  I don't think that hierarchy hurts unity at all.  Neither do I believe that peers are automatically unified just because they are all equal.

 

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Thanks for sharing, and so sorry - I've miscarried too.  I guess I get frustrated as I can ID cause/effect chains for everything in life which leaves little room for "God did it".  The proactive mindset of - research, work, problem solve, you can dig yourself out - is empowering to me.  The mindset of - bow your head and submit to whatever is inflicted on you by God - leaves me feeling helpless.... relying on my own two feet is the only thing that gives me hope. Accepting pain as just part of nature rather than curse from God... My mind feels healthier to just chuck it all up to natural laws.

...a bird does not have to fear the branch breaking - rely on it's own wings...

Submit to God?  It feels healthier to rephrase as "acknowledge and understand the laws of nature, prepare study and work on realistic changes you can accomplish.

Submit - not an action word, it sounds like a victim word.

 

I totally get what you're saying.  

I don't see being proactive (research, problem solve, work) as being contradictory to following God-- in fact, I believe doing those things (research, problem solve, work) is PART of being His disciple and He helps/empowers me do all those things.  I don't just lazily sit around waiting for someone else (including God) to do things.  In fact, I would call such a couch potato to repentance (which involves getting off your butt).  

And I would not describe vast majority of the bad stuff that goes on in life as "God cursing you" -- such is a lazy scapegoat mentality.  Vast majority of junk happens because life is messy and/or people are sinful jerks.   Submitting to God doesn't mean sit there are cry "woe is me, I'm so cursed!".  Submitting to God means being His active disciple, and He's going to empower you to go through things and guide you on the best way to do so.  

Through my miscarriages, I submitted to God and let Him... first and foremostly give me a hug.  Cause I just really really really needed a hug.  I needed someone who know what I was feeling, whom I could talk to.  And once I started to get back on my feet, He helped me have that courage and to guide me to make the right medical decisions.  He sent people to help me with things- stupid stuff like "can you drive my daughter to school".  He cleared/clearing my mind so I could/can work through all the pain and see strength inside me/Him, instead of just being wrapped up in my own misery.  

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, changed said:

No room in the "Inn" .  She knew she was pregnant- she knew when her 9 months were up - she knew the chaos of tax time - bring a tent if there were no caring relatives.  Too proud to let relatives serve?  Or relatives so insensitive?  Everyone went to their own city - their home town.  Planned event, not out of the blue.  Would you put a family member out to the barn?  Who is the crazy one here?  Isn't preparedness a good thing?

Just because something happened in the scriptures doesn't mean it was right- doesn't mean it was God's will.

We mustn't judge those people and their culture by our standards.  What Mary & Joseph did made good sense in their own context, and there was nothing untoward about it.  In other words, they were not out in the "barn."  They were in a normal Jewish house, which included domestic animals inside on the first floor.

[changed]

5 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I totally get what you're saying.  

I don't see being proactive (research, problem solve, work) as being contradictory to following God-- in fact, I believe doing those things (research, problem solve, work) is PART of being His disciple and He helps/empowers me do all those things.  I don't just lazily sit around waiting for someone else (including God) to do things.  In fact, I would call such a couch potato to repentance (which involves getting off your butt).  

And I would not describe vast majority of the bad stuff that goes on in life as "God cursing you" -- such is a lazy scapegoat mentality.  Vast majority of junk happens because life is messy and/or people are sinful jerks.   Submitting to God doesn't mean sit there are cry "woe is me, I'm so cursed!".  Submitting to God means being His active disciple, and He's going to empower you to go through things and guide you on the best way to do so.  

Through my miscarriages, I submitted to God and let Him... first and foremostly give me a hug.  Cause I just really really really needed a hug.  I needed someone who know what I was feeling, whom I could talk to.  And once I started to get back on my feet, He helped me have that courage and to guide me to make the right medical decisions.  He sent people to help me with things- stupid stuff like "can you drive my daughter to school".  He cleared/clearing my mind so I could/can work through all the pain and see strength inside me/Him, instead of just being wrapped up in my own misery.  

I have never felt comforted by God, nothing but darkness - feeling completely hollow and empty.