changed Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) Although I no longer label myself as LDS, I will be attending church in order to stay connected with friends and family. I have also decided to study "Come follow me" and will be commenting and asking questions rather than being silent as I have been in the past. I wanted to run my questions past you all as a trial run if you don't mind. Pg7 - accepting God's will. How do you know what God's will is? There are many things in my life I don't accept, and have vehemently opposed and succeeded in changing. If I was Mary, I would not have given birth in a stable - would not have accepted that as God's will, I would have come prepared, had reservations- would have fought until I had what I wanted. I don't think God wants us to submit to miserable conditions- I think He also expects us to be self reliant. Thoughts? Edited January 4, 2019 by changed Sp 1
Calm Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, changed said: If I was Mary, I would not have given birth in a stable - would not have accepted that as God's will, I would have come prepared, had reservations- would have fought until I had what I wanted. (Maybe you are making a joke given the use of "reservations"----kind of doubt such things existed back then given how even inns had shared common rooms for staying in and the uncertainties of travel would make reserving a particular room at a particular time very difficult----but just in case you are not).... Before getting upset about what happened to Mary and determining what you would do in her place (trying to figure out how you would do that while in the midst of labour and without ending up being looked at as crazy), you might want to consider that Mary likely didn't want to give birth in a relative's crowded guest room, but wanted some privacy at least from the men...so your option has her turning everyone else the family out of the room for her own comfort/privledge. More likely the men of the family sat outside with the animals while the women (possibly some from the neighbourhood as well as the extended family present) cared for Mary in the family's own quarters while she was giving birth...it just so happens family homes typically included mangers. cinepro put up this useful article on how "inn" is likely "guest room" and Mary just moved to a quieter, roomier part of the house, animals being kept in the home at night (thus the presence of a manger). Since they likely had been staying there for sometime, the area could have easily been prepared for this purpose prior to the need so Mary would be quite comfortable. https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/was-there-really-no-room-in-the-inn Quote A typical Judean house of that day consisted of an area near the door, often with a dirt floor, where the family’s animals were kept at night—so they wouldn’t be stolen or preyed upon and so their body heat could help warm the home on cool nights. The family lived and slept in a raised part of the same room set back from the door. There was also usually a guest room either upstairs on a second floor or adjoining the family common room on the lower floor. Typically the lower area near the door had a manger for food and/or water for the animals. Eric F.F. Bishop, an expert in Middle East culture, noted that the birth of Christ probably took place in “one of the Bethlehem houses with the lower section provided for the animals, with mangers ‘hollowed in stone,’ the dais [or raised area] being reserved for the family. Such a manger being immovable, filled with crushed straw, would do duty for a cradle. An infant might even be left in safety, especially if swaddled, when the mother was absent on temporary business” ( Jesus of Palestine, 1955, p. 42).... This scene of an ox or donkey in the house at night might go against our Western sensibilities. Yet, as Bailey comments: “It is we in the West who have decided that life with these great gentle beasts is culturally unacceptable. The raised terrace on which the family ate, slept and lived was unsoiled by the animals, which were taken out each day and during which time the lower level was cleaned. Their presence was in no way offensive” (p. 105). Of course, the animals could have been taken outside when the actual birth was occurring. Not saying there aren't stories of actual miserable conditions out there for you to use, just saying this isn't really one of them. Edited January 4, 2019 by Calm 2
Popular Post bluebell Posted January 4, 2019 Popular Post Posted January 4, 2019 When I think about accepting God's will I think of Mosiah 3:19- "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." My kids would love it if they never had to suffer through anything they didn't want to deal with, but I would be a bad parent if I didn't require them to do it anyway. They are not a good judge of what is necessary and what isn't, and they don't have the knowledge or maturity yet. A lot of times they fight for things that they want, but that I know will not serve them well in the long run (and might actually harm them). They honestly can't see it though. In their mind, their wants are reasonable and there is no good reason they shouldn't get them. I view my relationship with God in a similar way. 6
hope_for_things Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 18 minutes ago, changed said: Although I no longer label myself as LDS, I will be attending church in order to stay connected with friends and family. I have also decided to study "Come follow me" and will be commenting and asking questions rather than being silent as I have been in the past. I wanted to run my questions past you all as a trial run if you don't mind. Pg7 - accepting God's will. How do you know what God's will is? There are many things in my life I don't accept, and have vehemently opposed and succeeded in changing. If I was Mary, I would not have given birth in a stable - would not have accepted that as God's will, I would have come prepared, had reservations- would have fought until I had what I wanted. I don't think God wants us to submit to miserable conditions- I think He also expects us to be self reliant. Thoughts? Good luck on your efforts. I've been attending again for about 4 months now and so far it has been working for me. Its a challenge to be thoughtful about contributing positively and sense when your comments might not be appropriate. I try to compare this to attending meeting with the political party that I'm not affiliated with. You are essentially in territory where many people could take offense to what you say. It takes a very delicate and respectful approach, and I'm not perfect at it by any means. When in doubt, I don't say anything, but other times I'm able to offer a differing perspective that contributes to some insightful discussions. The question about what is God's will is a great question to ask. How do we know what God's will is for each of us? I think this is largely a personal question. Comparing it to Mary, you might consider that Mary must have believed that what she was doing was God's will or she wouldn't have done it, and sacrificed so much in that process. (BTW, I don't think its a literal historical account anyway, its a narrative that we can discuss as an archetype to apply to our own lives.) Self reliance is a theme that should resonate with others. Sacrifice and making the difficult choice is also something that could resonate. When to make the choice to sacrifice and when to make the choice for self care is a question about finding a healthy balance. All worthy of discussion. I hope things go well for you! 1
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) Compare Elizabeth and Zacharias to Sarah and Abraham. Sarah was a problem solver - she knew she was barren, did not just sit around, she solved it by giving Abraham Hagar. Elizabeth was barren - was Elizabeth lesser than Sarah because Elizabeth refused to use a handmaid? Sarah vs Elizabeth- who better accepted God's will? Edited January 4, 2019 by changed
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Calm said: (Maybe you are making a joke given the use of "reservations"----kind of doubt such things existed back then given how even inns had shared common rooms for staying in and the uncertainties of travel would make reserving a particular room at a particular time very difficult----but just in case you are not).... Before getting upset about what happened to Mary and determining what you would do in her place (trying to figure out how you would do that while in the midst of labour and without ending up being looked at as crazy), you might want to consider that Mary likely didn't want to give birth in a relative's crowded guest room, but wanted privacy...so your option has her turning everyone else the family out of the room for her own comfort/privledge. cinepro put up this useful article on how "inn" is likely "guest room" and Mary just moved to a quieter, roomier part of the house, animals being kept in the home at night (thus the presence of a manger). Since they likely had been staying there for sometime, the area could have easily been prepared for this purpose prior to the need so Mary would be quite comfortable. https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/was-there-really-no-room-in-the-inn No room in the "Inn" . She knew she was pregnant- she knew when her 9 months were up - she knew the chaos of tax time - bring a tent if there were no caring relatives. Too proud to let relatives serve? Or relatives so insensitive? Everyone went to their own city - their home town. Planned event, not out of the blue. Would you put a family member out to the barn? Who is the crazy one here? Isn't preparedness a good thing? Just because something happened in the scriptures doesn't mean it was right- doesn't mean it was God's will. Edited January 4, 2019 by changed
JAHS Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 45 minutes ago, changed said: I don't think God wants us to submit to miserable conditions- I think He also expects us to be self reliant. Agreed. It's those things that are out of our control that we sometimes have to have faith that God will somehow help us either get out of by means other than our own efforts or that He will give us the strength to bear it.
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, bluebell said: When I think about accepting God's will I think of Mosiah 3:19- "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." My kids would love it if they never had to suffer through anything they didn't want to deal with, but I would be a bad parent if I didn't require them to do it anyway. They are not a good judge of what is necessary and what isn't, and they don't have the knowledge or maturity yet. A lot of times they fight for things that they want, but that I know will not serve them well in the long run (and might actually harm them). They honestly can't see it though. In their mind, their wants are reasonable and there is no good reason they shouldn't get them. I view my relationship with God in a similar way. Do you think everything that happens in life is caused by God? Just submit to everything? My abused kids - up again all night with nightmares last night - that abuse was Gods will? Submitting to things in life is not healthy. Working to change what you do not like is healthy. Personal responsibility, admitting mistakes that led to bad situations (rather than saying its God's will) Things happen through cause and effect... God's will has very little to do with it.... or is Calvanism still a thing? Edited January 4, 2019 by changed
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, JAHS said: Agreed. It's those things that are out of our control that we sometimes have to have faith that God will somehow help us either get out of by means other than our own efforts or that He will give us the strength to bear it. How does God help? ...God helps those who help themselves... Faith in what? Good or bad outcome? Let's say you have cancer - what should you have faith in - faith to be healed? Faith to die peacefully? What do you have faith in? Edited January 4, 2019 by changed
Calm Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, changed said: No room in the "Inn" . She knew she was pregnant- she knew when her 9 months were up - she knew the chaos of tax time - bring a tent if there were no caring relatives. Too proud to let relatives serve? Or relatives so insensitive? Everyone went to their own city - their home town. Planned event, not out of the blue. Would you put a family member out to the barn? Who is the crazy one here? Isn't preparedness a good thing? Just because something happened in the scriptures doesn't mean it was right- doesn't mean it was God's will. You didn't read it, did you? It was not a barn unless those were very rich relatives, which there is no indication of them being. The manger (probably stone, so very safe and easily cleaned up) was in the main part of the house where the family slept on a raised platform while the animals would spend the night on the lower area (so no stepping or pooping on family while sleeping). This kept the family warm and the animals safe. She was likely being housed in the family's own quarters. Edited January 4, 2019 by Calm
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, Calm said: You didn't read it, did you? It was not a barn unless those were very rich relatives, which there is no indication of them being. The manger was in the main part of the house where the family slept on a raised platform. She was likely being housed in the family's own quarters. Luke 2:7, no room in the inn - it was an inn.
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, changed said: Luke 2:7, no room in the inn - it was an inn. Check the translation. 1
bluebell Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, changed said: Do you think everything that happens in life is caused by God? Just submit to everything? No, I don't. Quote My abused kids - up again all night with nightmares last night - that abuse was Gods will? I don't believe so. Quote Submitting to things in life is not healthy. It depends on what it is. Quote Working to change what you do not like is healthy. It depends on what it is. Lots of people like things, and pursue things, that are not healthy or good for them. Quote Personal responsibility, admitting mistakes that led to bad situations (rather than saying its God's will) Things happen through cause and effect... God's will has very little to do with it.... or is Calvanism still a thing? We disagree. Calvinism is still very much a thing for Calvinists, but that doesn't really mean anything. One doesn't have to be a Calvinist to believe that God is involved in our lives. 1
Popular Post Jane_Doe Posted January 4, 2019 Popular Post Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, changed said: Although I no longer label myself as LDS, I will be attending church in order to stay connected with friends and family. I have also decided to study "Come follow me" and will be commenting and asking questions rather than being silent as I have been in the past. I wanted to run my questions past you all as a trial run if you don't mind. Pg7 - accepting God's will. How do you know what God's will is? There are many things in my life I don't accept, and have vehemently opposed and succeeded in changing. If I was Mary, I would not have given birth in a stable - would not have accepted that as God's will, I would have come prepared, had reservations- would have fought until I had what I wanted. I don't think God wants us to submit to miserable conditions- I think He also expects us to be self reliant. Thoughts? Rather than imposing my viewpoint on someone who lived in a way different time and place then me, I'll just use an example from my own life: This past year I had two miscarriages, both of which had life-threatening complications for me. It's been a miserable ride in a lot of ways. Now, that doesn't mean I sat around and did nothing- there was a LOT of advocating for health care, doing what I could myself, etc. But still life does go down miserable roads sometimes. I don't think it was "God's will for this to happen"- no I think biology is messy and sometimes downright miserable. That's just life. I still advocate for myself the best I can. I still trust in God the best I can. I still listen to God's will the best I can. None of those are contradictory with each other. If you want to talk about abuse and this, then I'm cool talking about that as well. Not as some hypothetical, but as someone who's been there first hand. Edited January 4, 2019 by Jane_Doe 5
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Check the translation. I'm on a cell phone - road tripping without Lexicon... I don't know what's worse - relatives telling them "sorry no room", or strangers - it's their home town??
Calm Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, changed said: Luke 2:7, no room in the inn - it was an inn. Unless you believe the original text was in English, no it likely wasn't. If you read the link, you will see the better translation is " guest room" which fits much better with the culture (inns weren't exactly the nice motels or pubs we think of nowadays, but possibly dangerous and likely rowdy).
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: No, I don't. I don't believe so. It depends on what it is. It depends on what it is. Lots of people like things, and pursue things, that are not healthy or good for them. We disagree. Calvinism is still very much a thing for Calvinists, but that doesn't really mean anything. One doesn't have to be a Calvinist to believe that God is involved in our lives. So, how do you differentiate between what you believe is God's will, and what is not? Was it God's will for Mary to give birth in an animal stable? Was it God's will for Elizabeth and Sarah to be barren? Is it God's will for us to be miserable?
Buffy Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 Bible translation can get tricky. I too, have heard that "inn" actually translates into "guest room". She went home to her mother, like all Jewish women did, to give birth. She would have been attended by her mother and aunts. He wasn't born in the guest room. He was born in another room in the house. I think your question is a very good one and would be a good stepping stone to thoughtful discussion. However, your responses on this board have seemed caustic, so if that's is what you plan to do in Church, please don't. Many of us go to at least try and be edified and worship with fellow believers, not to fight.
Calm Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, changed said: I'm on a cell phone - road tripping without Lexicon... I don't know what's worse - relatives telling them "sorry no room", or strangers - it's their home town?? They didn't say "sorry, no room at all", they said "no room in the guest room", which was probably filled with other extended family, including women and children. Instead, they likely moved Mary into the family quarters which is where the manger would be.
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Calm said: Unless you believe the original text was in English, no it likely wasn't. If you read the link, you will see the better translation is " guest room" which fits much better with the culture (inns weren't exactly the nice motels or pubs we think of nowadays, but possibly dangerous and likely rowdy). So the relatives told Joseph no guest room for you?
changed Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Calm said: They didn't say "sorry, no room at all", they said "no room in the guest room", which was probably filled with other extended family, including women and children. Instead, they likely moved Mary into the family quarters which is where the manger would be. Whose needs should come first? In my family, prego ladies needs come first - tell all the other mooching relatives to go hang outside If it was your family, how would you have handled it? Edited January 4, 2019 by changed
Calm Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, changed said: So, how do you differentiate between what you believe is God's will, and what is not? Was it God's will for Mary to give birth in an animal stable? Was it God's will for Elizabeth and Sarah to be barren? Is it God's will for us to be miserable? CFR Mary gave birth in a stable. It is not in the scriptures. Only that she laid him in a manger...which in those days was a fixture within the family great room where they ate and slept on a raised portion. Mary was likely given the family's own spot.
bluebell Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, changed said: So, how do you differentiate between what you believe is God's will, and what is not? Prayer, fasting, reading my scriptures, mediation, etc. Quote Was it God's will for Mary to give birth in an animal stable? It seems that it was God's will that His son be born in very humble circumstances. I don't know if the specifics were necessary for that. Quote Was it God's will for Elizabeth and Sarah to be barren? It seems so, at least for a while. Quote Is it God's will for us to be miserable? No, but sometimes misery is a consequences of mortality and agency, and us living in a fallen world and being impacted by agency is His will.
Calm Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, changed said: So the relatives told Joseph no guest room for you? Let's see...which is better for a woman to give birth in a crowded with men, women, and children guest room (they had common rooms, not separate ones for individuals or couples) or to give birth in the family's own quarters where the women of the family and possibly neighborhood would be able to easily care for her, the animals and likely the men being kicked out of the room until the birth was over. (Not stated in scriptures, but follows cultural traditions) Edited January 4, 2019 by Calm
Calm Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, changed said: Whose needs should come first? In my family, prego ladies needs come first - tell all the other mooching relatives to go hang outside How do you know there weren't any other prego ladies or newborns among them?
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