Joseph Smith on Mormonism

[Avatar4321]

6 minutes ago, halconero said:

Looking up the source of this quote led me to the original letter, which I then realized is the source document for D&C 121. Interestingly, there’s a tremendous amount of content between verses 6-7.

Joseph vents his frustrations futher, calls the wrath of God down on the Saints’ enemies, pleads for the Saviour’s coming. It isn’t until an act of service from a friend that his heart is sufficiently softened for the Lord to speak to him in verse 7. It’s a beatiful letter, and segueys nicely into the Lord’s comforting of Joseph. I like this excerpt (edits made by me, just formatting):

"We need not say to you that the flood gates of our hearts were hoisted, and our eyes were a fountain of tears. But those who have not been enclosed in the walls of a Prison without cause or provocation can have but little idea how sweet the voice of a friend is."

"One token of friendship from any source whatever, awakens and calls into action every sympathetic feeling. It brings up in an instant every thing that is passed. It seizes the present with a vivacity of lightning. It grasps after the future with the fierceness of a tiger. It retrogrades from one thing to another until finally all enmity, malice, hatred, past differences, misunderstandings, and mismanagements are slain victorious at the feet of hope."

"And when the heart is sufficiently contrite, then the voice of inspiration steals along and whispers, 'my Son peace be unto thy soul, thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment, and then if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high, thou shalt triumph over all thy foes, thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again, with warm hearts and friendly hands thou art not yet as Job...'"

Do we have the full letter somewhere to read?

[halconero]

7 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Do we have the full letter somewhere to read?

Yup. On desktop you can bring up the full manuscript below. I’m on mobile, otherwise I’d link to it directly.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-2-november-1838-31-july-1842/84#facts

[blueglass]

16 minutes ago, halconero said:

Yup. On desktop you can bring up the full manuscript below. I’m on mobile, otherwise I’d link to it directly.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-c-1-2-november-1838-31-july-1842/84#facts

Why didn't we canonize all of Joseph's Liberty jail letters? 

 

[blueglass]

Looks like only 2 of the 10 letters were canonized.   D&Cov sec 121-123

https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-installment-of-joseph-smith-papers-includes-letters-from-liberty-jail?lang=eng

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

Would it be that surprising if that is what it means?  The devil's hand is apparent in our history.  I wouldn't expect otherwise.  He is not going to simply bare his neck to his adversary in defeat. He is a fighter and he is good at what he does - so much so that he was able to persuade "a third part of the hosts of heaven" to turn away from the Father. So, this is peanuts compared to that victory. 

Having said that, I don't yet have a conviction of this whole "Mormon" thing yet, but I am giving President Nelson the benefit of the doubt until I do.

In fact the certainty that I have of Satan is one of things that makes God a certainty to me, because it sure feels there are two forces nagging at me from both sides constantly.  I feel like Donald Duck sometimes!

 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, blueglass said:

Why didn't we canonize all of Joseph's Liberty jail letters? 

 

I haven't read all of them (at least I don't recall reading them).

Perhaps 121 & 122 contain the word of God.  But then 123 doesn't and that was also canonized.

There really seems to be no rhyme or reason being which revelations get canonized and which don't.  Personally I think we should live by every word that proceeds forth from God's mouth.

[Robert F. Smith]

22 hours ago, Bane said:

Is the point of the original quotation to illustrate an alleged inconsistency between Joseph Smith's use of the word "Mormonism"  and President Nelson's condemnation of that word to refer to the Restored Church?

Yeah.  We need tulip to explain him/herself.

[Gray]

15 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

No. It was correct the first time

Historically speaking it was wrong. Your theology may vary.

[blueglass]

If President Nelson corrected Joseph Smith in person and  told him  'Mormonism' is inaccurate and should not be used" - how would he react?

 

[HappyJackWagon]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I haven't read all of them (at least I don't recall reading them).

Perhaps 121 & 122 contain the word of God.  But then 123 doesn't and that was also canonized.

There really seems to be no rhyme or reason being which revelations get canonized and which don't.  Personally I think we should live by every word that proceeds forth from God's mouth.

Or at least the edited versions printed in the Ensign.  

[Avatar4321]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I haven't read all of them (at least I don't recall reading them).

Perhaps 121 & 122 contain the word of God.  But then 123 doesn't and that was also canonized.

There really seems to be no rhyme or reason being which revelations get canonized and which don't.  Personally I think we should live by every word that proceeds forth from God's mouth.

So you’re on board with the name of the church?

[CA Steve]

2 hours ago, blueglass said:

If President Nelson corrected Joseph Smith in person and  told him  'Mormonism' is inaccurate and should not be used" - how would he react?

 

He would probably challenge President Nelson to a leg wrestling competition, with the winner getting to speak for God.

My money is on Joseph.

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, blueglass said:

If President Nelson corrected Joseph Smith in person and  told him  'Mormonism' is inaccurate and should not be used" - how would he react?

 

Joseph would probably seek to excommunicate him for trying to correct him.  "God speaks to only one of us, and it ain't you, bub.  You've gotten too high and mighty making a mountain our of a molehill here--a sure sign of apostasy."  

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In another episode the Boss says, “All change is good,” so Dilbert says, “Let’s change your salary for mine.” Then the Boss says, “Not all change is good.”

[clarkgoble]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There really seems to be no rhyme or reason being which revelations get canonized and which don't.  Personally I think we should live by every word that proceeds forth from God's mouth.

Canon != revelation and vice versa. Canon as a concept is almost useless IMO. I'd put the King Follet Discourse well above the Song of Solomon for instance. As to what got canonized, that's largely due to Orson Pratt and more recently Spencer Kimball. I'd love to put a lot else in the canon though.

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

So you’re on board with the name of the church?

I have no opinion one way or another.  I don't think it matters all that much.  We should follow what God said as much as possible but nearly two centuries of using the word Mormon didn't seem to offend God.  So if it was still MoTab I'd be ok too.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, blueglass said:

If President Nelson corrected Joseph Smith in person and  told him  'Mormonism' is inaccurate and should not be used" - how would he react?

 

He'd almost certainly laugh out loud.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Canon != revelation and vice versa. Canon as a concept is almost useless IMO. I'd put the King Follet Discourse well above the Song of Solomon for instance. As to what got canonized, that's largely due to Orson Pratt and more recently Spencer Kimball. I'd love to put a lot else in the canon though.

Agreed on all counts.  Personally I think we should canonize every authorized revelation, especially the one the Church has acted upon.  It provides a foundation for the actions taken and makes them authoritative.

A great improvement over assumptions and guesswork.

[Hamba Tuhan]

29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Personally I think we should canonize every authorized revelation, especially the one the Church has acted upon.

You want daily updates to the canon??? And what about the ones where the Lotd says, ‘See that you tell no man’?

[clarkgoble]

31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Agreed on all counts.  Personally I think we should canonize every authorized revelation, especially the one the Church has acted upon.  It provides a foundation for the actions taken and makes them authoritative.

A great improvement over assumptions and guesswork.

I'm not sure we should canonize everything - especially since many (most?) revelations are impressions rather than texts. I would like to see excerpts from the King Follet Discourse and Sermon in the Grove added to canon though. Lots of other things as well. But there's minor revelations that are in the JSP that I don't see any point of adding to canon. 

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

He'd almost certainly laugh out loud.

I'm not so sure. He better than most can appreciate persecution and the power of a name. The situation today is simply different from then too. If he learned about today I suspect he might be a bit more sympathetic.

That said I remain convinced that until the Church figures out a legitimate shorthand that attempts to get rid of Mormon will fail.

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, blueglass said:

If President Nelson corrected Joseph Smith in person and  told him  'Mormonism' is inaccurate and should not be used" - how would he react?

 

I think they would enjoy discussing it as adults and comparing experiences they have had in the service of the Lord.

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[blueglass]

53 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think they would enjoy discussing it as adults and comparing experiences they have had in the service of the Lord.

 

What i see in Joseph's usage of Mormon and Mormonism is making lemonade from the lemmons thrown his way.  Do you think the original word in mosiah 18 meant "wild jungle" or "near a fountain of pure water"?

The author of mosiah 18:30 really likes the name repeating it 6times in one verse.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You want daily updates to the canon??? And what about the ones where the Lotd says, ‘See that you tell no man’?

Daily?  The last recorded written revelation that could be canonized was about a century ago.  Hard to canonize a feeling.  Pity God stopped speaking and only makes people feel good about decisions they've already made these days.

But if God legitimately said "see that you tell no man" of course they should be obedient.

Still, the fact remains that an absence of revelation and a claim of revelation with no evidence to examine look remarkably similar.

Edited December 19, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Hamba Tuhan]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Daily?  The last recorded written revelation that could be canonized was about a century ago.

This is the most circular argument I've ever seen. The only way that you'd know about 'recorded written revelation' is if it had been canonised.

Quote

Still, the fact remains that an absence of revelation and a claim of revelation with no evidence to examine look remarkably similar.

'On paper, yes. In lived experience, not at all.

If I were to publish all the spoken revelation that I've experienced the past year, there would be at least 50 sections/chapters. Why would I assume the living prophets of God are somehow receiving less revelation, especially when there is so often so much overlap?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is the most circular argument I've ever seen. The only way that you'd know about 'recorded written revelation' is if it had been canonised.

Nonsense. There are many many recorded written revelations that aren't canonized.  But again, all from the 1800s.  Not a single written revelation in a century.

Edited December 19, 2018 by JLHPROF