"Called to serve, not called to suffer"

[pogi]

There is a really interesting article in deseret news about Missionary service and mental illness. 

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900041718/called-to-serve-not-called-to-suffer-hope-for-early-returned-missionaries.html

There were a few really interesting points that could be discussed here. 

1) Chrch spokesperson Daniel Woodruff states that the actual figures of early returning missionaries for mental health reasons is "significantly lower" than what is reported in Jana Riess' and Benjamin Knoll's survey.

2)  Really interesting data on the differences in mental health outcomes between trusting in our own "good works" and trusting in God's grace.  From the article:

Quote

Judd recently published a study on grace, legalism and mental health, showing that Latter-day Saint BYU students who trusted in their own “good works” reported fewer experiences with God’s grace, and because of that, poorer mental health.

And the reverse was true as well — students who reported experiencing and trusting in God’s grace in their lives reported less anxiety, depression and shame.

“Legalism — this obsession with doing, being exactly obedient — it seems to … block our ability to experience grace,” Judd said.

How can we as a church and church culture better emphasize the grace of Christ without diminishing the emphasis of good works?  What is the proper balance?  How could this be better approached?

How prevalent is legalism in the church?  I certainly see it.  Why is this idea being propagated by many?

3) What does it take to change decades of ingrained culture about missionary service and attitudes?

And finally, 4) Holy Mormonolly Batman!  Batman is a Latter-day Saint?

Quote

In his 9 1/2 weeks out, Batman said he grew closer to God, which he believes is the ultimate reason for going on a mission.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by pogi

[Danzo]

38 minutes ago, pogi said:

There is a really interesting article in deseret news about Missionary service and mental illness. 

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900041718/called-to-serve-not-called-to-suffer-hope-for-early-returned-missionaries.html

There were a few really interesting points that could be discussed here. 

1) Chrch spokesperson Daniel Woodruff states that the actual figures of early returning missionaries for mental health reasons is "significantly lower" than what is reported in Jana Riess' and Benjamin Knoll's survey.

2)  Really interesting data on the differences in mental health outcomes between trusting in our own "good works" and trusting in God's grace.  From the article:

How can we as a church and church culture better emphasize the grace of Christ without diminishing the emphasis of good works?  What is the proper balance?  How could this be better approached?

How prevalent is legalism in the church?  I certainly see it.  Why is this idea being propagated by many?

3) What does it take to change decades of ingrained culture about missionary service and attitudes?

And finally, 4) Holy Mormonolly Batman!  Batman is a Latter-day Saint?

 

Legalism has been with the church since the pharisees, and it probably won't go away soon.  I think it is just part of human nature.  We want the certainty of knowing if we just check the boxes, everything is going to be fine.

When we find out we can't check all of the boxes, that is when a lot of people either give up, or find a way to fake checking the boxes, or try and make up their own list of boxes to check.

It turns out, there aren't that many absolutes that we can rely on.  In the end we just have to trust in the Mercy and Goodness of Christ.

 

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, pogi said:

There is a really interesting article in deseret news about Missionary service and mental illness. 

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900041718/called-to-serve-not-called-to-suffer-hope-for-early-returned-missionaries.html

There were a few really interesting points that could be discussed here. 

1) Chrch spokesperson Daniel Woodruff states that the actual figures of early returning missionaries for mental health reasons is "significantly lower" than what is reported in Jana Riess' and Benjamin Knoll's survey.

2)  Really interesting data on the differences in mental health outcomes between trusting in our own "good works" and trusting in God's grace.  From the article:

How can we as a church and church culture better emphasize the grace of Christ without diminishing the emphasis of good works?  What is the proper balance?  How could this be better approached?

How prevalent is legalism in the church?  I certainly see it.  Why is this idea being propagated by many?

3) What does it take to change decades of ingrained culture about missionary service and attitudes?

And finally, 4) Holy Mormonolly Batman!  Batman is a Latter-day Saint?

The Church and Church culture can, via individual conversion, implement ministering as a way of life (D&C 25:10), which is a better way to emphasize the grace of God and good works.

Legalism is part of the natural man. Lust and materialism are prevalent too! Many (the natural men) are called but few (the saints) are chosen.

A spiritual approach is much more efficient in changing culture than legalistic (and other secular) approaches.

[Duncan]

i've heard the missionaries use the term "exact obedience" for years but I have no idea what it means. We had a sister missionary here 5 years ago, she sent home more companions than she had baptisms, she was the most intense , demanding missionary i've seen since my own mission. She thought if you do ABC then baptisms galore  will be the result, so if that doesn't happen  then she and her companion are doing something wrong, well, her comps were driven to cutting themselves and fights and now inactivity. As their WML you saw all this unfold. There has to be a better way

[The Nehor]

In response to the title I was and still am called to do both.

In response to the grace vs. works thing My only response is:

[smac97]

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

There is a really interesting article in deseret news about Missionary service and mental illness. 

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900041718/called-to-serve-not-called-to-suffer-hope-for-early-returned-missionaries.html

There were a few really interesting points that could be discussed here. 

1) Chrch spokesperson Daniel Woodruff states that the actual figures of early returning missionaries for mental health reasons is "significantly lower" than what is reported in Jana Riess' and Benjamin Knoll's survey.

I'm not surprised by this.  Frankly, I do not repose a lot of faith and trust in Jana Riess.  

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

2)  Really interesting data on the differences in mental health outcomes between trusting in our own "good works" and trusting in God's grace.  From the article:

How can we as a church and church culture better emphasize the grace of Christ without diminishing the emphasis of good works?  What is the proper balance?  How could this be better approached?

A few suggestions:

1. Ditch the Caricatures

Some Evangelical Protestants, often of a Calvinist persuasion, disparage good works as being an affront to God, as reflecting a we-are-saved-by-works-and-not-by-Jesus-Christ's-Atonement mindset.  That is not accurate or healthy.

And some Latter-day Saints fixate on the various obligations that come with Church membership (serving in callings, paying tithing, going to the temple), sometimes to the extent of thinking - subconsciously or otherwise - that we must be "perfect" in these things, and perhas even failing to "believe Christ" when He says He can and will save us.  That is also not accurate or healthy.  See Stephen Robinson's excellent remarks here:

Quote

I am particularly fond of the way the Lord says this in Isaiah 1:18: “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” I would like to expand upon this scripture just a little bit to make sure that the significance of it doesn’t get past us. What the Lord is saying here is this: “It doesn’t matter what you did. Whatever it was, no matter how horrible or vile, is not the issue. The issue here is that whatever your sin was or is, I can erase it, I can clean you up and make you innocent, pure, and worthy, and I can do it today; I can do it now.”

Unfortunately, there are many members of the Church who simply do not believe this. Though they claim to have testimonies of Christ and of his gospel, they reject the witness of the scriptures and of the prophets about the good news of Christ’s atonement. Often these people naively hold on to mutually contradictory propositions without even re alizing the nature of the contradiction. For example, they may believe that the Church is true, that Jesus is the Christ, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, while at the same time refusing to accept the possibility of their own complete forgiveness and eventual exaltation in the kingdom of God. They believe in Christ, but they do not believe Christ. He says, “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. I can make you pure and worthy and celestial,” and they answer back, “No, you can’t. The gospel only works for other people; it won’t work for me.”

Yet the “good news” of the gospel is good news to me not because it promises that other people who are better than I am can be saved, but because it promises that I can be saved—wretched, inadequate, and imperfect me. And until I accept that possibility, until I believe Christ when he says he can bring me into his kingdom and set me on a throne, I have not really accepted the good news of the gospel—I have only accepted the messenger while rejecting his wonderful message.

2. Quit Keeping Up with the Joneses

I think many of the Latter-day Saints struggle in having "faith" and "works" in their lives because we are comparing ourselves to each other in unhealthy and unhelpful ways.  We compare our worst to the best of others.  We measure our worth by comparing our lives to others, which is a subjective-and-almost-always-self-defeating yardstick.  We need to calm down, stop the comparisons, and let Jesus Christ work in and through us.

3. Study and Serve

I think the Latter-day Saints need to study the Restored Gospel more.  We need to explore it outside of the three-hour (soon to be two-hour) block.  More regular study of the scriptures (and other "best books") would, I think, go a long way in helping us meaningfully apply and adapt the Gospel to our individual lives and circumstances.  

Some of us also need to serve others more.  Not just in callings, but in getting to know our neighbors.  Helping out in small - and sometimes big - ways.  Basic acts of kindness.  Not to the extent that we exhaust and embitter ourselves, of course.

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In response to the title I was and still am called to do both.

A popular saying in 12 step programs is this - "pain is inevitable; suffering is optional"

Suffering being defined as our reaction or response to experience.  I fully agree with that quote.

Quote

“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” —Viktor Frankl

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/some-assembly-required/201401/pain-is-inevitable-suffering-is-optional

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In response to the grace vs. works thing My only response is:

I don't understand.  Are you suggesting that grace is unproductive and unworthy of our consideration?

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i've heard the missionaries use the term "exact obedience" for years but I have no idea what it means. We had a sister missionary here 5 years ago, she sent home more companions than she had baptisms, she was the most intense , demanding missionary i've seen since my own mission. She thought if you do ABC then baptisms galore  will be the result, so if that doesn't happen  then she and her companion are doing something wrong, well, her comps were driven to cutting themselves and fights and now inactivity. As their WML you saw all this unfold. There has to be a better way

Yep.  This is a fairly common mindset of missionaries.  In fact, in my mission, my president regularly had "mission covenants" where we would promise certain behaviors in return for certain baptismal figures.  It is this type of thing that really does damage.  First of all, covenants are not something that we can author.  Only God can make the conditions in covenant making, and we can agree or disagree to participate in that contract.  That is not how many missions worked historically.  We all decided what a good baptismal goal would be, we didn't include God.  Second, it also propagates the false and damaging idea that "exact obedience" results in numbers, which can be damaging and cause one to question worthiness etc. when numbers are not reached.

From the article:

Quote

Missionaries may believe such fallacies because of unintentionally harmful ideas propagated by mission leaders, who preach that exact obedience to mission rules will directly result in baptisms, or that any personal struggle can be overcome with increased diligence to gospel teachings alone, several returned missionaries said.

 

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

A popular saying in 12 step programs is this - "pain is inevitable; suffering is optional"

Suffering being defined as our reaction or response to experience.  I fully agree with that quote.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/some-assembly-required/201401/pain-is-inevitable-suffering-is-optional

I don't understand.  Are you suggesting that grace is unproductive and unworthy of our consideration?

I must choose to suffer a lot.

i am saying I am personally bored of works and grace discussions. I stick to my standby: Focus more on whichever one you like less or are less comfortable with at the moment.

Those kinds of beliefs are probably why I choose to suffer so much:

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Quote

In response to the grace vs. works thing My only response is:

I don't understand.  Are you suggesting that grace is unproductive and unworthy of our consideration?

Nehor can speak for himself, but I construed his remarks as expressing boredom with the endless grace versus works debate, with the idea that reliance on Grace and doing good works is an either/or proposition.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

48 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yep.  This is a fairly common mindset of missionaries.  In fact, in my mission, my president regularly had "mission covenants" where we would promise certain behaviors in return for certain baptismal figures.  It is this type of thing that really does damage.  First of all, covenants are not something that we can author.  Only God can make the conditions in covenant making, and we can agree or disagree to participate in that contract.  That is not how many missions worked historically.  We all decided what a good baptismal goal would be, we didn't include God.  Second, it also propagates the false and damaging idea that "exact obedience" results in numbers, which can be damaging and cause one to question worthiness etc. when numbers are not reached.

From the article:

 

I agree fully! In my Mission it was so incredibly numbers driven, it was unreal. I wasn't there at the time but in June or July of 1996 our mission had 400 ish baptisms, but they later found out that less that 50 were taught all 6 discussions. One can conclude that missionaries will break all kinds of rules to get the numbers, like the mission is forcing me to do this bad stuff or people are number hungry, ladder climber type who will stop at nothing to baptize someone without them really knowing what they are doing. I look back at missionaries the served here since 2013, a lot are active but a good amount aren't, elders and sisters. You wish it was different, a balance but I think a balanced mission is rarely achieved or sustained for long. Too much emphasis on baptisms leads to all kinds of problems and too little emphasis can also lead to problems

[pogi]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

i am saying I am personally bored of works and grace discussions. I stick to my standby: Focus more on whichever one you like less or are less comfortable with at the moment.

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Nehor can speak for himself, but I construed his remarks as expressing boredom with the endless grace versus works debate, with the idea that reliance on Grace and doing good works is an either/or proposition.

 

Gottcha.

I get tired of the works vs. grace discussion too.  What I am asking though is different. This is not about salvation/exaltation and how grace or works plays a role or not.  This is more a question about how we can keep the idea of grace alive and healthy in our culture and lives.  I feel that our strong emphasis on works sometimes overshadows the need for grace in our lives.  It is evident that too many of our youth are developing perfectionist tendencies which can lead to debilitating anxiety/depression.  Studies show that a stronger emphasis on grace can help alleviate that suffering...not surprising as that is what grace does!

[Avatar4321]

Christ was called to suffer as well as serve. Why would we be different?

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Christ was called to suffer as well as serve. Why would we be different?

Because I don’t wanna suffer...............

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

1) Church spokesperson Daniel Woodruff states that the actual figures of early returning missionaries for mental health reasons is "significantly lower" than what is reported in Jana Riess' and Benjamin Knoll's survey.

 

Well, why doesn't Church spokesperson Daniel Woodruff tell us what the correct figures are? 

Edited November 13, 2018 by cinepro

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Christ was called to suffer as well as serve. Why would we be different?

Our leaders are compassionate and agree that missionaries should not be required to serve who have debilitating mental illness such as anxiety or depression.  They also expect us to not judge them, but to be accepting and compassionate.  Yet there is a terrible stigma that lingers over the heads of many of these returned missionaries who are unable to complete 2 years or 1/12 years of service because of cultural expectation that we should both serve and suffer - yet our leaders disagree.   Are you suggesting they are wrong?

Again, how can an emphasis on the grace of Christ be utilized to alleviate the suffering of these poor youth?  When are we going to allow compassion and grace to compensate for the cultural expectation for perfection in works?  It is all too much for many in our church.  This idea that we must suffer through works is backwards in my mind.  The scriptures tell us over and over that "Christ suffered for us", for some reason we de-emphasize the "for us" part and instead place our emphasis on the suffering. 

Christ suffered for us.  That is something to meditate on and allow to be true for us.   

“I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer... (D&C 19:16)."  That includes both spiritual and physical suffering. 

Again, I am distinguishing emotional/physical pain from suffering, which is really a reaction to pain.  We don't have to react that way if we allow the grace of Christ to come upon us as he suffer for us.  

Edited November 13, 2018 by pogi

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Well, why doesn't Church spokesperson Daniel Woodruff tell us what the correct figures are? 

That would be helpful, wouldn't it?

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Our leaders are compassionate and agree that missionaries should not be required to serve who have debilitating mental illness such as anxiety or depression.  They also expect us to not judge them, but to be accepting and compassionate.  Yet there is a terrible stigma that lingers over the heads of many of these returned missionaries who are unable to complete 2 years or 1/12 years of service because of cultural expectation that we should both serve and suffer - yet our leaders disagree.   Are you suggesting they are wrong?

Again, how can an emphasis on the grace of Christ be utilized to alleviate the suffering of these poor youth?  When are we going to allow compassion and grace to compensate for the cultural expectation for perfection in works?  It is all too much for many in our church.  This idea that we must suffer through works is backwards in my mind.  The scriptures tell us over and over that "Christ suffered for us", for some reason we de-emphasize the "for us" part and instead place our emphasis on the suffering. 

Christ suffered for us.  That is something to meditate on and allow to be true for us.   

“I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer... (D&C 19:16)."  That includes both spiritual and physical suffering. 

Again, I am distinguishing emotional/physical pain from suffering, which is really a reaction to pain.  We don't have to react that way if we allow the grace of Christ to come upon us as he suffer for us.  

I think this point is often forgotten in the repentance process.

[JAHS]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

How prevalent is legalism in the church?  I certainly see it.  Why is this idea being propagated by many?

Here's one reason some do it. It makes them feel more secure knowing what the rules are and following them.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by JAHS

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

Here's one reason some do it. It makes them feel more secure knowing what the rules are and following them.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/127657c9-dc66-4f15-90e3-6cd42740f578

It is also a false sense of control. If I do A,B,C = X. Y. Z,  either will or will not happen to me.

[strappinglad]

Many mission presidents were from the corporate world where numbers and performance really matters. Hard to break a lifetime of mindset.