Calm Posted November 14, 2018 Author Posted November 14, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: All that needs to be done is that there needs to be a training saying that Bishops should not do that. Problem solved. As a leader of an organization you can't tell what some yahoo in the ranks is going to pull. Whatever happens you need to react to it properly and I think the church is doing that. Is there training for interviewing occurring these days? I got the impression there wasn't from what cinepro said. If they aren't, do you think they are reacting properly? (Not a gotcha, trying to understand your reasoning because what cinepro says combine with the above seems like the Church isn't reacting with "all that needs to be done".) Edited November 14, 2018 by Calm
Popular Post bsjkki Posted November 14, 2018 Popular Post Posted November 14, 2018 33 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: And they are completely free to say "I find that question inappropriate and will not be answering it" -- in fact that's the right thing to say. Education is important for bishops, but it's ALSO important for everyone else on the planet. Cause let's face: inappropriate questions can come from anywhere/anyone I don't really think most 12-year-old girls will say that to a Bishop or counselor. There is a power dynamic there that I don't think most 12-year-old's would cross. I discuss questions with my kids before and after interviews. I will now sit-in if requested. I think most parents should sit in with their kids during their first interview. They would be there to help with questions and understanding. 5
Garden Girl Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 26 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: I do have at least three girlfriends who in the last 5 years have shared major line crossings in temple recommend questions, sexually prying questions. (Are those your real breasts? Do silky garments turn you on? This type of nonsense.) Those are just the ones I know about. So it stands that reason that it’s happened to others. Indeed, not everyone. But enough to warrant this conversation. These types of remarks are absolutely inappropriate... I can't believe a member of the bishopric would ask such a question. If I was asked such a question in a TR interview, you can be sure I'd call the interviewer on it in no uncertain words, and advise him I'd be going to the Stake pres immediately... and that he'd better be prepared to explain why or how he believed such questions were appropriate... GG 2
Calm Posted November 14, 2018 Author Posted November 14, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: They did, Jane. If it is okay with you and you have the info, could you provide info on what happened after they said it was an inappropriate question to the Bishop (and kudos to them for speaking up)? Edited November 14, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted November 14, 2018 Author Posted November 14, 2018 11 minutes ago, let’s roll said: Any woman asked a question of that ilk would not just be justified, but would be doing a great service to all members of the Church by immediately standing up, telling the Bishop, “we’re done here” and immediately reporting the incident to the Stake President. You don't have enough points to give you a rep point, so just saying here I completely agree. 1
bsjkki Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 Some historical notes. https://www.jstor.org/stable/23287671?read-now=1&seq=15#page_scan_tab_contents You can read it if you sign up. This is probably the Prince article. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1975/04/a-self-inflicted-purging?lang=eng This one is quite blunt from 1975. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1978/10/the-blessing-of-church-interviews?lang=eng This one is by Tanner. I like his emphasis on expressing love to the interviewee. This is a 1956 conference talk which includes the first conference reference to 'self abuse.' After reading it, it seems the more things change the more things stay the same. https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1956sa/page/n121 Pg. 121 top of 2nd column. 1
bsjkki Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 18 minutes ago, let’s roll said: Any woman asked a question of that ilk would not just be justified, but would be doing a great service to all members of the Church by immediately standing up, telling the Bishop, “we’re done here” and immediately reporting the incident to the Stake President. This should happen. I think, as adult women, we should expect proper conduct and report when it is not received.
Calm Posted November 14, 2018 Author Posted November 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I don't really think most 12-year-old girls will say that to a Bishop or counselor. There is a power dynamic there that I don't think most 12-year-old's would cross. I discuss questions with my kids before and after interviews. I will now sit-in if requested. I think most parents should sit in with their kids during their first interview. They would be there to help with questions and understanding. I think it would be smart for the first interview to always be held with parents or if the bishop wants to ensure the 12 year old has a chance to speak confidentially, have a practice interview with child and parents where questions to be asked are shared, so kids know what to expect and are in a similar situation so that if inappropriate questions are asked, they won't assume that they misheard or misunderstood or that things are okay to be different because they are in a different setting. And parents can decide if they want to have further discussions with their child if they see they haven't had enough parental teaching on a subject or they feel it is important to discuss limits in more detail as in "it is okay to talk/ask about ______ if this is something you feel you need to, but the Bishop should not be asking you details about _____ if you didn't bring it up yourself." 2
blueglass Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 22 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Some historical notes. https://www.jstor.org/stable/23287671?read-now=1&seq=15#page_scan_tab_contents You can read it if you sign up. This is probably the Prince article. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1975/04/a-self-inflicted-purging?lang=eng This one is quite blunt from 1975. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1978/10/the-blessing-of-church-interviews?lang=eng This one is by Tanner. I like his emphasis on expressing love to the interviewee. This is a 1956 conference talk which includes the first conference reference to 'self abuse.' After reading it, it seems the more things change the more things stay the same. https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1956sa/page/n121 Pg. 121 top of 2nd column. In the Edward Kimball paper on the history of temple recommend interviews (Journal of Mormon History Vol. 24, No. 1 (Spring 1998), pp. 135-176) it says that in 1979 the church removed the question asking if candidates live the law of chastity. pg 149, "In 1979 no explicit question was asked about chastity, leaving it to be covered by the general question about any unresolved serious sin. But since 1985 the question has been very direct: "Do you live the law of chastity?" 3
blueglass Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 59 minutes ago, Calm said: 75 would explain why I don't remember any, as that would have been my last year....I remember interviews for BYU. I have always assumed they were too blah to remember. "too blah" is good right? 1
Jane_Doe Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 52 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I don't really think most 12-year-old girls will say that to a Bishop or counselor. There is a power dynamic there that I don't think most 12-year-old's would cross. Going to be blunt here: There are predators in the world that pray on girls and boys age 12 and younger. Teach your daughters and sons what's appropriate and what's not, and encourage them to stand up for themselves, and keep the communication bridge open so they feel comfortable talking to you. Don't depend a system to always protect them. 52 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I discuss questions with my kids before and after interviews. I will now sit-in if requested. I think most parents should sit in with their kids during their first interview. They would be there to help with questions and understanding. TOTAL THUMBS UP!!!!
Calm Posted November 14, 2018 Author Posted November 14, 2018 22 minutes ago, blueglass said: "too blah" is good right? Well, it means there weren't any discussions that I felt were inspiring enough to remember, but good in nothing negative appeared.
The Nehor Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 2 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I don’t think anyone, even the narrator of the podcast said or even thinks that every or even most bishops are out of line. I think most aren’t. But I think there are enough questionable situations that there needs to be much better training and regulation. I do have at least three girlfriends who in the last 5 years have shared major line crossings in temple recommend questions, sexually prying questions. (Are those your real breasts? Do silky garments turn you on? This type of nonsense.) Those are just the ones I know about. So it stands that reason that it’s happened to others. Indeed, not everyone. But enough to warrant this conversation. Where do you live? Just because I do not ever want to live there....... 4
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 2 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I don’t think anyone, even the narrator of the podcast said or even thinks that every or even most bishops are out of line. I think most aren’t. But I think there are enough questionable situations that there needs to be much better training and regulation. I do have at least three girlfriends who in the last 5 years have shared major line crossings in temple recommend questions, sexually prying questions. (Are those your real breasts? Do silky garments turn you on? This type of nonsense.) Those are just the ones I know about. So it stands that reason that it’s happened to others. Indeed, not everyone. But enough to warrant this conversation. Why in heaven's name would they tolerate that and not report it immediately to the Stake President and leave the room? AND call the police. I can't believe those are true accounts- how could someone be so .............................................. passively uninformed as to take that? And you have 3 cases in 5 years? In the same area?? Call the area Seventy if she is not getting this handled immediately then take it to the press if she gets no satisfaction. There is no way I would tolerate that for myself or my kids. It can't be that they would be "afraid" of their authority over their "heavenly reward" or religious authority- when obviously it would be "AMEN to the priesthood of that man" And if no action- I would leave the church. Leave the church and don't look back- there is no authority from the church if that is happening in an area 2
MustardSeed Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 Different areas folks. One of my friends recently passed, cancer. The other friend spoke up and he was released. 2
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: It's still important to state, to remember the big picture. And they are completely free to say "I find that question inappropriate and will not be answering it" -- in fact that's the right thing to say. Education is important for bishops, but it's ALSO important for everyone else on the planet. Cause let's face: inappropriate questions can come from anywhere/anyone. The right thing to say is "Get out of my face and I am going to the police, it's none of your business"? Why don't they do that? Who could be so passive in a case like that. I find it literally unbelievable, meaning I don't believe the accounts. How could there be so many with absolutely no common sense and in one area? Who would even WANT a recommend from someone like that who has no authority by their conduct alone?
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 42 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Where do you live? Just because I do not ever want to live there....... Same thoughts as me..... this ain't real. And if it is the whole stake/area leadership needs to be ex'ed. Not believable that it has only happened to this guy otherwise everyone in the stake would be up in arms. Doesn't add up.
MustardSeed Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 Wouldn’t it be great if every woman and child were taught to take no crap from anyone? I remember giving my grad school department head the old one two punch verbally when he called me sweatheart in a condescending way in front of the class. I was so rewarded after by my classmates that I never following have felt compelled to take any line crossing from anyone in any power. Not everyone has that clarity. Like Jane says, we have to teach people boundaries and limits. 1
MustardSeed Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 It doesn’t always happen that way because that’s how power works. And yes....not everyone with power is bad.
MustardSeed Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Same thoughts as me..... this ain't real. And if it is the whole stake/area leadership needs to be ex'ed. Not believable that it has only happened to this guy otherwise everyone in the stake would be up in arms. Doesn't add up. No one ever wants to believe that horrible unspeakable things happen. But they do because “humans”. Those that were reported were handled appropriately. I don’t know if my deceased friend reported hers. I think she had other things to worry about.
Calm Posted November 14, 2018 Author Posted November 14, 2018 23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The right thing to say is "Get out of my face and I am going to the police, it's none of your business"? What police would respond to a sexual comment without any sort of threat or physical assault? Surely they would just say report him to his supervisor, not a criminal matter. 1
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: No one ever wants to believe that horrible unspeakable things happen. But they do because “humans”. Those that were reported were handled appropriately. I don’t know if my deceased friend reported hers. I think she had other things to worry about. OK so they were handled appropriately? So your point then? Why did you even bring it up? To tell us that bad things happen like we didn't know that?
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Calm said: What police would respond to a sexual comment without any sort of threat or physical assault? Surely they would just say report him to his supervisor, not a criminal matter. Which is what I suggested. The SP and area authority 70
mfbukowski Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 24 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Wouldn’t it be great if every woman and child were taught to take no crap from anyone? I remember giving my grad school department head the old one two punch verbally when he called me sweatheart in a condescending way in front of the class. I was so rewarded after by my classmates that I never following have felt compelled to take any line crossing from anyone in any power. Not everyone has that clarity. Like Jane says, we have to teach people boundaries and limits. Those are common sense. Yes I suppose we have to teach them. Some have had no parents to do so I suppose.
Tacenda Posted November 14, 2018 Posted November 14, 2018 38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Why in heaven's name would they tolerate that and not report it immediately to the Stake President and leave the room? AND call the police. I can't believe those are true accounts- how could someone be so .............................................. passively uninformed as to take that? And you have 3 cases in 5 years? In the same area?? Call the area Seventy if she is not getting this handled immediately then take it to the press if she gets no satisfaction. There is no way I would tolerate that for myself or my kids. It can't be that they would be "afraid" of their authority over their "heavenly reward" or religious authority- when obviously it would be "AMEN to the priesthood of that man" And if no action- I would leave the church. Leave the church and don't look back- there is no authority from the church if that is happening in an area You seem to be sarcastic, and if so, feels kind of rude. Or are you serious in the last sentence?
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