This American Life

[MustardSeed]

And outside the church, people don’t care about that.  I guarantee my son will have hang ups that my non religious neighbors kid won’t.  That makes me very, very sad. 

[MustardSeed]

(I’m sorry if I’ve lost anyone, I’m not used to this format yet)

[stemelbow]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

That being said, they obviously reached out to the Church for input, and they got the Director of Media Relations for the Church (Eric Hawkins).  He did a yeoman's job trying to make the Church not look awful, but there's not much defense for what was being reported in the interviews.

But it goes off the rails at 43:55 where the interviewer makes a very reasonable point that in order for things to get better (and perhaps some degree of comfort to be given to those who were mentally scarred in a Bishop's interview), the Church needs to admit that stuff was being discussed in a way that it shouldn't have been.  But Hawkins, in the best tradition of PR representatives, can't allow himself to admit that anything "wrong" ever happened.  He even offers a hypothetical where the interviewer would find some resolution by...going in and having an interview with a Bishop.  We've just heard 30 minutes of cringe-inducing stories about Bishop's interviews, and the Church PR guy says that the best course of action is for her to go talk to a Bishop so he could "sit down and counsel with you to make sure you understood."  Yes, Eric Hawkins, I'm sure the problem is that it was the young women who just didn't understand what was going on in these interviews, and they should go in for more interviews so they can be told how they should have felt.

He also tries to deflect by saying "what I can't do is go back and change your experience, your perception, your feelings you had at that time."

No dude, what you can do is say "Hey, the questions your Bishop asked you were too invasive and inappropriate, and we know that because of the psychological effect they had on you.  No one should ever feel that way during a Bishop's interview, and if they do, the Bishop has done something wrong. It was also inappropriate for him to come and sit closer to you and put his hand on your knee when asking the questions.  And it happened not just to you but to many other women, too many other women, even if the vast majority of Bishop's interviews didn't involve overly invasive questions.  So on behalf of the Church, we're sorry, and we're taking actions to make sure these interviews are positive experiences for young men and women going forward."

But I guess I would make a terrible PR guy.

 

 

I listened on my bike ride yesterday as per my wife and son's suggestion.  Excellent point, Cinepro, although I want to point out the most cringeworthy of Mr. Hawkins explanation towards the end was he used 11 year old girls to illustrate.  One 11 year old might be pretty naïve, he suggests, while another might not be and a bishop should be able to dig deep if you will.  I was astounded he seemed so extremely dense about the topic at that point.  He was trying to advocate not advising Bishop's further because they need the freedom to go there if needed, or so it seemed.  That along with the reluctance to address the problems describes perfectly the ongoing problem.  

My son posted it on Facebook and said something about how he'd rather had just left it at the conversation with his parents, rather than have the bishop try and address it as he did.  Funny thing, we had a conversation with our bishop when our son was 11 saying, we'd prefer to be present in these one on ones.  He said ok, but somehow he still snuck them in over the years.  Afterward we found how the really inappropriate ways he tried to address things with our son. with that said, there's definitely something more difficult about this stuff when it comes to young women and girls.  scars and all of that.  

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

And outside the church, people don’t care about that.  I guarantee my son will have hang ups that my non religious neighbors kid won’t.  That makes me very, very sad. 

When did resisting sin become a “hang up generator”?

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Well I guess I could write a book but will just simplify by mentioning that girls were taught culturally that sexual sin compared them to a chewed up piece of gum, for example. I’d say, not healthy.  

The podcast explains it pretty well. 

Yes, that metaphor has been discussed for a while.  I am glad that Elizabeth Smart publicly spoke about/against it in 2013 (see here).

Thanks,

-Smac

[MustardSeed]

*

Edited November 13, 2018 by MustardSeed

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Im not worthy to take the sacrament because i touch my penis too often.  

I guess no one else in the ward is touching their penis. 

There must be something wrong with me, that I touch myself. 

I feel shame.  It’s very deep.  I will touch myself because it helps me numb out.

(I just happen to think 1. That it’s normal to touch your own penis. And 2. That not taking the sacrament as a youth for 2 YEARS is damaging on many levels.  I’m aware that most reading this would say well, he’s not worthy.  And.... I just disagree.  ) 

It is probably more about porn.

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes, that metaphor has been discussed for a while.  I am glad that Elizabeth Smart publicly spoke about/against it in 2013 (see here).

Thanks,

-Smac

Ya, boring bla bla example.  But the shame about sex seems pretty obvious to me, as a girl raised in the church. 

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

It is probably more about porn.

Yes. Same cycle. 

[MustardSeed]

If everyone doesn’t mind,I shouldn’t have brought up my son.  

[smac97]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

Ya, boring bla bla example.  But the shame about sex seems pretty obvious to me, as a girl raised in the church. 

I didn't mean to disparage the example.  To the contrary, I acknowledge that example as a harmful concept that should not be taught.

Sex is a wonderful, and sacred and important, thing.  In our increasingly sexualized society, which often treats sex as a mere biological function, or as a transaction, it can be difficult to address.  I think parents need to be the primary - and perhaps exclusive - source of information as to the nuts and bolts of it.  I think YM/YW leaders and bishops should constrain themselves to the spiritual/moral aspects of such things (though a bishop may need to make some generalized inquiries as to misconduct that has occurred).  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

29 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

If everyone doesn’t mind,I shouldn’t have brought up my son.  

Okay.  Sorry.  Shouldn't have followed you down that path.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Kevin Christensen]

There is therapy, which is about addressing the needs of the individual, in their present circumstance and age and situation, as appropriate.  There is institutional policy, which by nature and reality has to do with general principles and overall simplified trends, managed by a motley crew of well-meaning amateurs doing their best according to their lights.  And there is propaganda and scandal, which is all about generalizing from whatever exploitable situation provides the leverage desired to push the political and personal narrative into the desired channels.  And there is the search for greater light and knowledge, which involves the embrace of both information and the telling perspectives that allows it to be integrated into a larger picture.

If you don't want to have hang ups, seek for greater light and knowledge, and along the way, follow Brigham Young's advice to "understand people as they are and not as you are."

Being part of a covenant community, itself populated by a range of people with different cultural backgrounds, different ages, different personality types, different experiences, and at different positions along the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth, inevitably means that we come into contact with people who are, unsurprisingly, imperfect.  However, we can try to bear one another's burdens, when possible, rather than add to them.  Being part of the LDS covenant community, being a believer in Jesus Christ, means that we accept that Jesus did not say, "Because I love you unconditionally, I'm am totally fine with letting everyone make their own commandments, and I will see to it that no one ever has any misfortune or regret as a consequence.  And no one should have to make personal sacrifice, or experience frustration or guilt."

In the real world, there is, as Ecclesiastes has put it, "A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing."  In one of his books on recovery from sex addiction, Patrick Carnes comments that one of the things that comes with age is wisdom, which he defines as "learning what is worth being upset about." 

After having spent more than 15 years in addiction recovery, and hearing lots of life stories, I have learned that there are worse consequences from behavior than having a few hangups.  We have time to work things out.  That is one of the purposes of earth life and mortality.  And it happens that people without boundaries can generate all sorts of hangups in their children as well as those who might be too uptight.  Look up my essay "A Mormon Rashomon" for some observations on that.

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

And outside the church, people don’t care about that.  I guarantee my son will have hang ups that my non religious neighbors kid won’t.  That makes me very, very sad. 

Again something being common doesn't mean it's not a problem.  It doesn't mean that we shouldn't still try to have God in our lives.  And for "Bob" who doesn't have God in their lives to even realize the damage they are doing as he casually does it again and again.... Bob is not to be envied there.  Poison is poison, whether or not you realize it. 

[MustardSeed]

54 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay.  Sorry.  Shouldn't have followed you down that path.

Thanks,

-Smac

My fault, no one elses. 👌

[Jane_Doe]

For me, having been horribly sexually abused as a kid, the Gospel was literally the only think that kept me sane.  That there WAS a healthy good use for sexuality that existed beyond the horror I had experienced, and beyond the stupidity I watched teenagers do.  That our bodies are a GIFT from God, and that the sexuality was supposed to be used to bond a couple together in mutual love and respect- a gift from God.  A value that was taught to me by Church leaders and never by my parents (I refused to touch that subject with my parents).

If I had not had the Gospel in my life, if I had not been taught the Law of Chasity (aka the PROPER use of sex)... I don't know where I would be.  Certainly not the happily married woman I am today.   

[MustardSeed]

27 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

For me, having been horribly sexually abused as a kid, the Gospel was literally the only think that kept me sane.  That there WAS a healthy good use for sexuality that existed beyond the horror I had experienced, and beyond the stupidity I watched teenagers do.  That our bodies are a GIFT from God, and that the sexuality was supposed to be used to bond a couple together in mutual love and respect- a gift from God.  A value that was taught to me by Church leaders and never by my parents (I refused to touch that subject with my parents).

If I had not had the Gospel in my life, if I had not been taught the Law of Chasity (aka the PROPER use of sex)... I don't know where I would be.  Certainly not the happily married woman I am today.   

I’m glad your experience was good. You deserved that. 

[bsjkki]

I'm not sure what to say about this thread. I relate. Bishops make huge mistakes. I could listen to the podcast but really don't want to. It will bring me all sorts of anxiety. I feel sorry for your son. I hope he stays active as an adult but the shame cycle leads a lot of youth right out the door. Therapy helped my son but his life has been effected by his struggles with these things. It messed up his schooling and led to an anxiety disorder that he struggles with. He did come back to church and was sealed in the Temple but it was a rough go. A few kind and loving Bishops who helped him in a loving way made all  the difference. The ones that yelled at him and used shaming techniques caused further troubles. In my opinion, the "M" word should not be discussed with Bishops. I don't view it as a sin that warrants confession. In my experience, Bishops do more harm than good in helping young men with this issue and make them feel like sexual deviants when they are very normal. I've seen it cause a downward spiral in the lives of young men over and over again. I've seen those who view it as personal struggle to overcome do much better.  Sometimes making something a "big deal" instead of a "small deal" can be counterproductive. And...I will use the term Bishops very generally here. I think it is appropriate. Some may do really well with these issues and others don't. Since we never know what to expect...My default is to assume the worst and then make an informed decision about Bishops limitations before seeking their help. 

Bishops are not counselors and do not know how to effectively deal with these issues or deal with sexual assault and rape victims.

 The church has made a lot of progress with how it addresses sexual matters and many of the old "analogies" have been denounced. The church took Moroni 9:9 out of the Personal Progress book. There has been progress. They have published new guidelines for Bishop interviews and will allow a parent to be present if requested by the interviewee. I think this is a good standard since youth should be allowed to seek counsel with a Bishop when they don't want their parents involved. Hang in there. It is rough. I still have a testimony after realizing Bishop roulette is a real and very dangerous things to the mental health and well being to many members of the church. 

[MustardSeed]

7 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I'm not sure what to say about this thread. I relate. Bishops make huge mistakes. I could listen to the podcast but really don't want to. It will bring me all sorts of anxiety. I feel sorry for your son. I hope he stays active as an adult but the shame cycle leads a lot of youth right out the door. Therapy helped my son but his life has been effected by his struggles with these things. It messed up his schooling and led to an anxiety disorder that he struggles with. He did come back to church and was sealed in the Temple but it was a rough go. A few kind and loving Bishops who helped him in a loving way made all  the difference. The ones that yelled at him and used shaming techniques caused further troubles. In my opinion, the "M" word should not be discussed with Bishops. I don't view it as a sin that warrants confession. In my experience, Bishops do more harm than good in helping young men with this issue and make them feel like sexual deviants when they are very normal. I've seen it cause a downward spiral in the lives of young men over and over again. I've seen those who view it as personal struggle to overcome do much better.  Sometimes making something a "big deal" instead of a "small deal" can be counterproductive. And...I will use the term Bishops very generally here. I think it is appropriate. Some may do really well with these issues and others don't. Since we never know what to expect...My default is to assume the worst and then make an informed decision about Bishops limitations before seeking their help. 

Bishops are not counselors and do not know how to effectively deal with these issues or deal with sexual assault and rape victims.

 The church has made a lot of progress with how it addresses sexual matters and many of the old "analogies" have been denounced. The church took Moroni 9:9 out of the Personal Progress book. There has been progress. They have published new guidelines for Bishop interviews and will allow a parent to be present if requested by the interviewee. I think this is a good standard since youth should be allowed to seek counsel with a Bishop when they don't want their parents involved. Hang in there. It is rough. I still have a testimony after realizing Bishop roulette is a real and very dangerous things to the mental health and well being to many members of the church. 

THANK you for this.  This is the soft place to fall I needed today.  You are my kind of people, bsjkki. 

[Jeanne]

17 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Wow thank you Calm.  I have no agenda or need to control the direction of this topic, I just need an anonymous place to put my thoughts and feelings out there in the world.  

For point of reference I’ve been a member my whole life and I am in my 50s now. I have always been active and I carry a temple recommendBut I am also a independent thinker. I find myself to be a little bit different than the standard  In that I tend to be accepting of people who are different than I am. I’m usually the first to welcome folks who come to church smelling or looking different than everyone else.  

I am an avid follower of This American life, the program. Or the podcast. I am fascinated by the topics and honesty of the program. 

This morning after listening to Sunday’s broadcast I was very upset.   I see huge value in hearing “the other side” ‘s point of view in most things so kept an open mind to this topic. 

I am having a flurry of thoughts as very little time right now but top of mind here is where I go.

1. Do I trust the involvement the bishop has right now in my teen aged sons journey?  My son hasn’t been deemed worthy to take sacrament in 2 years.  I worry for him.  My son is an avid rule follower but has had some chastity rule breaking that doesnt involve any other person.  Frankly, I think he is normal.  He is also extremely honest and has high expectations of himself.

2.  I’m a counselor in the young women’s program and I am thinking about having a conversation with a young woman after standards night And offer if anyone has appointment with the bishop at any time and is uncomfortable meeting alone or uncomfortable involving their parents that I would be willing to go with them. I know for a fact that when I was a teenager I would never have wanted my parents sitting in on my bishops interview.

3. It is very disturbing to me when women talk about   Priesthood leaders crossing the line when doing interviews with them. I have heard many of these stories over the years. Wouldn’t be so terribly wrong for priesthood leader to simply ask are you living at the law of chastity, and leave it to the person to resolve that with God on their own?  Bishops our laypeople they are not counselors and most of the time I believe that they are really poorly trained to be interviewers. I’ve never had anybody cross the line with me but I’m told I can be pretty intimidating so I would be surprised if anybody ever would but I have many friends with some pretty heinous stories. Just like in this podcast. I was surprised at the percentage of the results that they received Reporting inappropriate questioning in temple recommend interviews and youth interviews.

4.  I think the Interview with the church representative (I think it is a media guy,I can’t recall ) was absolutely embarrassing.I can only hope that the interview was cut and pasted.

5.  It appears as though the questioning about the law of chastity began in the 1970s around the president Kimball/I would say President Packer era. I don’t know what else to say about this but I do have a lot of feelings about President Packer on a personal level. They aren’t good.

6.  It was very interesting to hear about the women talk about how sex as a married woman is confusing and not as satisfying as they believe it would have been had they been raised either at home or in the church with the healthier view of sexuality. Action is more than interesting it was just really really sad. Really really sad and depressing.

7. I’m not particularly interested in the bishop who got excommunicated recently over the stuff I’m talking about. I think anyone who carries a torch tends to have a bit of imbalance and perhaps I do as well.  But I know nothing about him and wish him well. I just know that I feel really icky after having heard the point of view I the podcast and I know it hit something deep inside of me that I already believe personally and now I just can’t ignore it because it affects my children, my grandchildren, my sisters in the gospel the young women I Have charge over presently. And last but not least, it affects me.

Thank you for listening, I feel lighter already.  No one can fix this for me but at least I can speak. 

Oh my...as a woman in her 60's and a former member for over 40 years...you, my friend, are a breath of fresh air!!

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m glad your experience was good. You deserved that. 

There are many good experiences with LDS views of sexuality (when it's done right).  That's not to say that sometimes it hasn't been done wrong (cause it totally it has), but I do think it's important to remember good things too and get a full-approach, rather than just focusing on the bad (as is the natural man temptation).

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Oh my...as a woman in her 60's and a former member for over 40 years...you, my friend, are a breath of fresh air!!

 

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

THANK you for this.  This is the soft place to fall I needed today.  You are my kind of people, bsjkki. 

I think we have a pretty clear idea of the direction of this thread here on out.....  and it ain't toward the church's side of the equation. 

 

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

There are many good experiences with LDS views of sexuality (when it's done right).  That's not to say that sometimes it hasn't been done wrong (cause it totally it has), but I do think it's important to remember good things too and get a full-approach, rather than just focusing on the bad (as is the natural man temptation).

Thank you Jane, I always appreciate considering the good things.  

Is it ok though that today, I’m concerned for the things that aren’t or haven’t worked?  

It’s almost as if my thoughts and concerns are a problem.   I don’t think it’s what you intend but I’m having an uncomfortable response as it seems as though you might want to change my mind? 

[MustardSeed]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

 

I think we have a pretty clear idea of the direction of this thread here on out.....  and it ain't toward the church's side of the equation. 

 

Is there something I as a newcomer am unaware of?  And are there only two sides? 

[Jane_Doe]

44 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Thank you Jane, I always appreciate considering the good things.  

Is it ok though that today, I’m concerned for the things that aren’t or haven’t worked?  

It’s almost as if my thoughts and concerns are a problem.   I don’t think it’s what you intend but I’m having an uncomfortable response as it seems as though you might want to change my mind? 

I don't think having concerns / questions are a problem at all-- if we don't think on things, we can never improve.  I'm just advocating that we should have a thoughtful approach to improving, rather than knee jerk reactions which can also cause a lot of harm.

For example, that dude who was excommunicated-- he wanted to go to the extreme of banishing all church adults from talking to youth about Law of Chasity / sex. That's a complete knee-jerk reactions and  I don't think that's a healthy solution, as there are folks that have benefited from these instructions and aren't comfortable talking to their parents (such as myself).

Now "chewing gum" analogies can just go in the trash can <= and you'll find the vast vast vast majority of folks agreeing with that.

Your offering to your YW -- I think that's great.  Get people help and support they need.

I've noticed in recent years Law of Chasity talks also include lots of talk about the Atonement.  Which is a great things, both for those that have made mistakes and those that have had mistakes made too them.

Teaching approbate boundaries to people (wether the other person be a bishop, parent, peer, etc) <<-- always a HUGE thing wherever and whoever you are (religious or not).  But I find a lot of people leaving that out of these type of discussions, and that does bother me.  

Edited November 13, 2018 by Jane_Doe