This American Life

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Extrapolating from that that I consider men's lives expendable or we should rejoice in men being tortured or executed, well, that's an unwarranted leap.

One which I never took.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

it's just been my observation that the kids that are cruel learned that from someone.

I am not debating this in the least.

I am however wondering why you apparently see a difference with protectiveness, why it cannot be a learned behaviour.

Why do you believe protectiveness is biological?

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not debating this in the least.

I am however wondering why you apparently see a difference with protectiveness, why it cannot be a learned behaviour.

Why do you believe protectiveness is biological?

Based on my experience, yes. 

[Bernard Gui]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

One which I never took.

We must read things differently. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

We must read things differently. 

Thought that was a given by now.   No one reads things the same way. It is why I ask questions and provide references, in hopes of being better understood and to be better in understanding. 

——

I am curious. Assuming protectiveness is a male biological trait, do you see it as fundamentally different than when females are protective as they often are?

Also what are the implications for you that come with the idea that protectiveness in men is biological, what differences exist in their behaviour because it is instinctual in your view and not learned?

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Isn’t all communication an attempt to manipulate someone else’s subjective experience? 

Obviously not.  Science.

But I have no clue what your point is.

[phaedrus ut]

I just listened to this episode this morning. I expected the story to be about Sam Young but he was only a small part of it. It's nice to that NPR has Mormons on the staff and Elna Baker is a producer now on This American Life. 

Phaedrus 

[Tacenda]

https://www.the-exponent.com/hearldswomen-my-bishop-asked-me-sexually-explicit-questions-i-didnt-understand-so-i-researched-them-i-was-eleven/

This article mentions a girl of eleven being interviewed pre-Young Women's. So all this time we should say 11, not 12 year olds are being asked questions that are inappropriate.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.the-exponent.com/hearldswomen-my-bishop-asked-me-sexually-explicit-questions-i-didnt-understand-so-i-researched-them-i-was-eleven/

This article mentions a girl of eleven being interviewed pre-Young Women's. So all this time we should say 11, not 12 year olds are being asked questions that are inappropriate.

True, but usually the difference between being 11 and being 12 for these girls and boys is only a matter of a few days.  There's not much significant difference.

[MiserereNobis]

On 11/15/2018 at 12:23 PM, Bernard Gui said:

especially when my beloved Italian fiddle and French bow are just 10 feet away and I hear some Bach and Prokofiev calling my name.

Dude, leave European music, get yourself to Appalachia, and play some bluegrass and old-timey on that fiddle.

[MiserereNobis]

On 11/15/2018 at 2:36 AM, mfbukowski said:

There you go again my buddy getting beat up for defending women, you monster! Welcome to the club.

 

Sometimes defending someone is heroic, sometimes defending someone is patronizing.

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Dude, leave European music, get yourself to Appalachia, and play some bluegrass and old-timey on that fiddle.

Better than that, join me and let’s play some Dixie chicks and Charlie Daniels. My fiddle is not French but she sings. 

[MiserereNobis]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Obviously not.  Science.

Just to clarify, are you saying that science is objective? It seems like it, but... you're a post-modern relativist, right? Are you holding science up as an exceptional position in your paradigm? If so, shall I recommend Feyerabend's "How to Defend Society from Science" article to you?  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Just to clarify, are you saying that science is objective? It seems like it, but... you're a post-modern relativist, right? Are you holding science up as an exceptional position in your paradigm? If so, shall I recommend Feyerabend's "How to Defend Society from Science" article to you?  

Lol good for you- when I proofed that post I thought that someone smart might raise that point, but in the context.... I did not find that likely

BUT alas my friend- you err. 

Point 1: - this is the quote

Quote

Isn't all communication an attempt to manipulate someone else’s subjective experience? 

I have no idea what that means.  First how could communication manipulate a SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE of another person?  You see what you see- how can I tell you what YOU have seen??

You see the perpetrator drive away in a red car.  Then someone tries to tell you and "manipulate" you to say the car was black?  Ridiculous!

Point 2:

How does all scientific communication- since "all" was the claim- "manipulate" observation?   How would it do that in the context of the red and black car?

In fact that is the OPPOSITE of what science does- which is to seek for REPLICATION of experiences through experimentation.  Anyone at sea level can verify the boiling point of water and agree with anyone else who does it.  How is that "manipulating" someone's experience of what the thermometer says??

Which brings us to point 3 

The definition of "objective" means agreement on private perception and the expression of that perception- it is all linguistic.  You have a private experience of a red car and I have a private experience of a red car.

I ask you- "What color was the car" and you say "RED!" 

We have had two separate personal experiences and yet both are expressed as a "red car" and not a pink elephant or a blue bus.

THAT is "objectivity".  Language - "communication"- actually CREATES objectivity through expression of the same words to describe the private experiences.  It does NOT "manipulate someone's subjective experience"

The essential point is that the PRIVATE experience is expressed in language but the language does not "correspond to reality" because there is no way of knowing anything BEYOND the subjective experiences

If language "corresponds" to anything it is to human EXPERIENCES about a reality which we know nothing.  

It's the reality/ appearance distinction.  No difference.  So what we agree on is the language which corresponds to someone else's use of language but whether or not it corresponds to "reality" is unknowable.

What that does is protect private religious experience which can be seen as as valid as any other private experience- which means all experience period.

It just means that religious experience is not objective by definition- because no one else can describe YOUR religious experience.  Which is why science and thinking that way can ruin society because it tends to destroy the validity of other ways of seeing the world- like religion and morals, art and a host of other wonderful disciplines which are essential to the enrichment of life.

But in no way does science "manipulate" experiences.  That is the opposite of what science does and so is why I said that and that makes you WRONG my dear brother!  😜

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Sometimes defending someone is heroic, sometimes defending someone is patronizing.

But on this one you are totally right.

And sometimes being patronizing can be a good thing. It gets people angry but sometimes it can be used to teach or intentionally anger people for some good purpose like getting them to think.   It's pretty hard to argue "truth" in a relativistic, emotionally dominated context. 

And arrogance can do that as well. 

But of course not very Christlike which is why I keep apologizing.

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

In fact that is the OPPOSITE of what science does- which is to seek for REPLICATION of experiences through experimentation.  Anyone at sea level can verify the boiling point of water and agree with anyone else who does it.  How is that "manipulating" someone's experience of what the thermometer says??

A couple of points here. I'm never quite sure how far along the relativistic scale you are (not an insult, truly), but the thermometer could read differently for each different person because there is no way to know objectively, according to the relativist. So the agreement on the boiling water is purely superficial, just like your color analogy. There is no objectivity in relativism, right?, including in science, as Feyerabend so burlesquely pointed out (his whole rhetorical approach to the subject is fascinating -- his continual insulting of his audience is perfectly in line with his claims).

Then you add in the problem of induction (Hume, Russell, et all) and Popper's solution to it, and now science is not about replication (that's induction) but falsification, so replication plays a more minor role.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

But on this one you are totally right.

And sometimes being patronizing can be a good thing. It gets people angry but sometimes it can be used to teach or intentionally anger people for some good purpose like getting them to think.   It's pretty hard to argue "truth" in a relativistic, emotionally dominated context. 

And arrogance can do that as well. 

But of course not very Christlike which is why I keep apologizing.

 

Perhaps satire fits the definition here, but... satire is funny. You gotta work on your stand up routine, bro  

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Dude, leave European music, get yourself to Appalachia, and play some bluegrass and old-timey on that fiddle.

Thanks for the suggestion.  

You may be surprised to know that I learned to fiddle in the early 60s from a Texas-style fiddler in my ward named Jim Newville (he was from Nevada).  My first tune was Black Mountain Rag. I played with the Burnt Mountain Boys, The Paisanos, and a country-western band in New Mexico, and the Hobble Creek String Band on Friday nights at the old Jimba's joint in Provo. In the early 70s my Bluegrass band Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge performed every weekend in the Tram Room at Snowbird Ski Resort in Utah. I have a heckuva recording of us playing Orange Blossom Special on a Friday at midnight with a bunch of really drunk skiers getting into the groove.

In May, I was visiting my son Celllissimo in Kentucky. One night he, his son, and I drove up in the mountains to McKee and jammed with his friend, the proprietor of the String Bean Memorial Bluegrass Festival and some of his buddies from the hills and hollers. Fabulous musicians who have played bluegrass since they were little kids! Bluegrass cello licks! It was totally awesome, never to be forgotten.

I have 5 dance tune books written by the hands of my grandfather and great-grandfather who were violin players/musicians/ band leaders in the LDS colony at Manassa, Colorado, in the early 1900s. I also play both of their fiddles. I'm in the process of transcribing the books to printable notation and recording them on their fiddles....polkas, schottiches, waltzes, fiddle tunes, two-steps, old cowboy songs, etc. 

I'm a symphony/opera/chamber musician playing regularly in the Tacoma/Seattle area, and learning some Stephan Grappelli jazz improvisations. 

I also do Hudson Bay Company reenactments at Fort Nisqually in Tacoma, playing fiddle for the Scottish dancers, all dressed in period costumes. If you have the interest and patience, you can go to the Facebook page for Fort Nisqually Living History Museum and scroll way down just past the 2017 Sheep Shearing Demonstration photos to the 2017 Queen Victoria Birthday Celebration photos. That's me, the really old dude on the fiddle, the camera looking over my shoulder at the dancers. If you hover the mouse over the photos, it tells you when they were taken. This forum won't let me link to Facebook.

 

Violin's been agooda to me, man!

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[MustardSeed]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Violin's abeen agooda to me, man!

Do you play the local church performances? I know Tacoma does a lot of musical tri stake kind of stuff 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Do you play the local church performances? I know Tacoma does a lot of musical tri stake kind of stuff 

Pretty much all of them. I directed the Mary Poppins orchestra last summer and will be playing in their Messiah next month. Also play in Auburn, Bellevue, Graham stake productions and the Ensign Symphony in Seattle. And a few non-LDS churches. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Pretty much all of them. I directed the Mary Poppins orchestra last summer and will be playing in their Messiah next month. Also play in Auburn, Bellevue, Graham stake productions and the Ensign Symphony in Seattle. 

You must so enjoy life...you get to do what you love and do it all over the place.  I miss my music!!!!

Edited November 17, 2018 by Jeanne

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

A couple of points here. I'm never quite sure how far along the relativistic scale you are (not an insult, truly), but the thermometer could read differently for each different person because there is no way to know objectively, according to the relativist. So the agreement on the boiling water is purely superficial, just like your color analogy. There is no objectivity in relativism, right?, including in science, as Feyerabend so burlesquely pointed out (his whole rhetorical approach to the subject is fascinating -- his continual insulting of his audience is perfectly in line with his claims).

Then you add in the problem of induction (Hume, Russell, et all) and Popper's solution to it, and now science is not about replication (that's induction) but falsification, so replication plays a more minor role.

No!

There IS objectivity!

I take Nagel's view of objectivity. 

What we CALL objective is a consensus of descriptions of phenomena.

Google "Nagel what is it like to be a bat PDF" and read it. I am on my phone and don't have time really to reply at this point. But Google that and that's only like a 20-page paper.

To sloganize it objectivity is like voting for the president. A bunch of guys perform an experiment and what the majority gets wins the title of "objective"

Until the Paradigm gets overthrown then I guess you would say it's no longer objective. It's old science that nobody believes anymore, like phrenology. Also Thomas Kuhn writes extensively on the subject. I'm campaigning for both those guys.

science is constantly changing. There's no such thing as objective objective Truth on this side of the veil.

There are just opinions until they are overthrown for new opinions.

Truth is contextual. It is what a community of believers accept.

Science actually works the same way as religion. Your community of believers believes one thing we believe another. But each Community agrees with in itself. Science is the same thing. Some guys believe this theory about cosmology and other guys believe something else. Then something happens to changes at all.

this was dictated into my phone so it might have all kinds of weird mistakes.

 

[MiserereNobis]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks for the suggestion.  

You may be surprised to know that I learned to fiddle in the early 60s from a Texas-style fiddler in my ward named Jim Newville (he was from Nevada).  My first tune was Black Mountain Rag. I played with the Burnt Mountain Boys, The Paisanos, and a country-western band in New Mexico, and the Hobble Creek String Band on Friday nights at the old Jimba's joint in Provo. In the early 70s my Bluegrass band Uncle Lumpy and the Friends of Calvin Coolidge performed every weekend in the Tram Room at Snowbird Ski Resort in Utah. I have a heckuva recording of us playing Orange Blossom Special on a Friday at midnight with a bunch of really drunk skiers getting into the groove.

In May, I was visiting my son Celllissimo in Kentucky. One night he, his son, and I drove up in the mountains to McKee and jammed with his friend, the proprietor of the String Bean Memorial Bluegrass Festival and some of his buddies from the hills and hollers. Fabulous musicians who have played bluegrass since they were little kids! Bluegrass cello licks! It was totally awesome, never to be forgotten.

I have 5 dance tune books written by the hands of my grandfather and great-grandfather who were violin players/musicians/ band leaders in the LDS colony at Manassa, Colorado, in the early 1900s. I also play both of their fiddles. I'm in the process of transcribing the books to printable notation and recording them on their fiddles....polkas, schottiches, waltzes, fiddle tunes, two-steps, old cowboy songs, etc. 

I'm a symphony/opera/chamber musician playing regularly in the Tacoma/Seattle area, and learning some Stephan Grappelli jazz improvisations. 

I also do Hudson Bay Company reenactments at Fort Nisqually in Tacoma, playing fiddle for the Scottish dancers, all dressed in period costumes. If you have the interest and patience, you can go to the Facebook page for Fort Nisqually Living History Museum and scroll way down just past the 2017 Sheep Shearing Demonstration photos to the 2017 Queen Victoria Birthday Celebration photos. That's me, the really old dude on the fiddle, the camera looking over my shoulder at the dancers. If you hover the mouse over the photos, it tells you when they were taken. This forum won't let me link to Facebook.

 

Violin's been agooda to me, man!

 

Ah yes, you had mentioned this before and I had forgotten. You, me, and pogi have similar tastes in music. Do you like basketball? An author friend of mine moved to Ireland for a while, was a basketball coach there, and met a musical mentor who taught him Irish fiddling. He wrote a great book on the whole experience: Paddy on the Hardwood

 

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Ah yes, you had mentioned this before and I had forgotten. You, me, and pogi have similar tastes in music. Do you like basketball? An author friend of mine moved to Ireland for a while, was a basketball coach there, and met a musical mentor who taught him Irish fiddling. He wrote a great book on the whole experience: Paddy on the Hardwood

 

Too short, too slow, too uncoordinated to play hoops and never really became a fan except when Nemelka, Congdon, Raymond, Ainge, and Cosic were playing at BYU.