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Review of Ex Mormon Gives Most Incredible Testimony EVER! Will Give You Chills!


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1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

So God could have lead this missionary (about whom this post is talking about) to another church and/or faith?  That is possible according to your point of view.  
Moreover, your statement that your testimony is "not built on another human being" contradicts the temple recommend question that confirms you must sustain the current President of the Church (who holds all the keys of the priesthood), along with sustaining the members of the First Presidency and Quorom of the Twelve Apostles and local leaders. You must built part of your belief system on these leaders, IMO, in order to fully sustain them.  

Also, why no mention of the OP's trite, inane, and sarcastic mockery of someone else's testimony just because it is of a different belief/religion?  

This arrogance, need for superiority, and "better-than-others" attitude actually drives a lot of people away from the church, IMO.    

1

You seem to be stretching statements to incredulity. 

1) Yes, I think that some people can choose another path and God will approve it - thus this missionary could have been led by the Spirit on his path to another church. This is not a black and white area and there is a wide area of discussion but at the end of the day, I stand by this position. If God is involved one would expect that the individual would find and exhibit great peace, happiness, and joy with their life. 

2) Do I support prophets and apostles - Yes, of course. It is the organization that Jesus set up himself. Do I depend on these men for my salvation? No. Stop being so silly. You swallow camels and expect me to choke on mosquitos. You are mixing things up rather than staying within my previous statement - my testimony is built on God and an interaction with him.

3)  Do I think some people will tell stories that are stupid about another religion? Ever visited the anti-Mormon section at a bookstore? Most of those attacking the church don't even know our doctrine and/or teachings, much less or history, but it does not stop them from bearing witness against us. Same thing for Catholicism, Islam, etc. 

4) Arrogance is a human characteristic. I have never met a human who in some way or at some time did not exhibit it. Taking offense can be easy as being human. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Do I depend on these men for my salvation? No. 

I disagree.  In order to be "saved" or gain salvation, you must attend the temple, correct?  In order to attend the temple, you must sustain the prophet, apostles and local leaders.  So, yes, you DO depend on these men for your salvation, IMO.  Why follow their counsel at all if you don't depend on them to lead you in the right direction as the "Lord's mouthpiece."  You can't have it both ways...

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4 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Moreover, your statement that your testimony is "not built on another human being" contradicts the temple recommend question that confirms you must sustain the current President of the Church (who holds all the keys of the priesthood), along with sustaining the members of the First Presidency and Quorom of the Twelve Apostles and local leaders. You must built part of your belief system on these leaders, IMO, in order to fully sustain them.  

I have never ever, ever heard a leader tell me that my testimony should be built on anything other than the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. 

We sustain our leaders by following their admonition to gain testimony through direct communion with God. 

There is no contradiction between sustaining our leaders and building a testimony purely through spiritual means. 

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2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

It's not that everybody is right; rather, everybody THINKS he/she is right, which is separate from an underlying reality, IMO.  

What if they are all right to some degree, and all wrong to some degree?  I have no reason to doubt that each individual is being led by God in their own way of light as they seek light in humility and diligence.

Quote

 

It was six men of Indostan, to learning much inclined,
who went to see the elephant (Though all of them were blind),
that each by observation, might satisfy his mind.

The first approached the elephant, and, happening to fall,
against his broad and sturdy side, at once began to bawl:
'God bless me! but the elephant, is nothing but a wall!'

The second feeling of the tusk, cried: 'Ho! what have we here,
so very round and smooth and sharp? To me tis mighty clear,
this wonder of an elephant, is very like a spear!'

The third approached the animal, and, happening to take,
the squirming trunk within his hands, 'I see,' quoth he,
the elephant is very like a snake!'

The fourth reached out his eager hand, and felt about the knee:
'What most this wondrous beast is like, is mighty plain,' quoth he;
'Tis clear enough the elephant is very like a tree.'

The fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said; 'E'en the blindest man
can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an elephant, is very like a fan!'

The sixth no sooner had begun, about the beast to grope,
than, seizing on the swinging tail, that fell within his scope,
'I see,' quothe he, 'the elephant is very like a rope!'

And so these men of Indostan, disputed loud and long,
each in his own opinion, exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right, and all were in the wrong!

So, oft in theologic wars, the disputants, I ween,
tread on in utter ignorance, of what each other mean,
and prate about the elephant, not one of them has seen! 

John Godfrey Saxe

 

 

Edited by pogi
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43 minutes ago, pogi said:

What if they are all right to some degree, and all wrong to some degree?  I have no reason to doubt that each individual is being led by God in their own way of light as they seek light in humility and diligence.

 

And the seventh man listened to the prophet who was not blind and had seen the elephant and was enlightened.

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2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

I disagree.  In order to be "saved" or gain salvation, you must attend the temple, correct?  In order to attend the temple, you must sustain the prophet, apostles and local leaders.  So, yes, you DO depend on these men for your salvation, IMO.  Why follow their counsel at all if you don't depend on them to lead you in the right direction as the "Lord's mouthpiece."  You can't have it both ways...

I disagree with your position because it is incorrect. Whether in this life or the next every child of God will receive the opportunity to receive all of the ordinances of Exaltation - every child. What you are trying to force is a situation prevents an individual from entering the temple - let's take the example of when the temples were closed to Black people. The lived and died as members or not they each will receive their ordinances of Exaltation. If they were valiant in striving to live by the truths they were given they will be exalted in the same way every other individual is exalted. This appears to be an area where you have created straw men arguments due to your lack of understanding of the Plan of Salvation for all of God's children.

Based upon your lack of understanding you have made poor judgments and decisions. The salvation of God's children has never been dependent upon the prophets. There have been times when the Keys of the Priesthood were not on the earth and yet those children will be allowed the opportunity to receive all their ordinances of Exaltation. The role of prophets and apostles are to guide, to facilitate God's children to walk in righteousness. They also hold keys that allow us to receive ordinances in this life - but no child of God is strictly dependent on other men save Jesus Christ. 

Strawman burned up and put away. 

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23 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have never ever, ever heard a leader tell me that my testimony should be built on anything other than the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. 

We sustain our leaders by following their admonition to gain testimony through direct communion with God. 

There is no contradiction between sustaining our leaders and building a testimony purely through spiritual means. 

https://www.lds.org/church/news/read-the-first-presidencys-testimonies-of-joseph-smith-martyred-174-years-ago-today?lang=eng

“Like other faithful Latter-day Saints, I have built my life on the testimony and mission of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” President Oaks said. “In all of my reading and original research, I have never been dissuaded from my testimony of his prophetic calling and of the gospel and priesthood restoration the Lord initiated through him.”


https://www.lds.org/new-era/2017/04/testify-of-the-restoration?lang=eng

"Take away Joseph Smith and the First Vision, take away the events which followed, take away a direct restoration from heaven, and what do we have? We don’t have much—at least not enough to distinguish us from a thousand other good groups of people."

...

"And we cannot testify of Their great introductory appearance in our day without testifying of the divine calling of the young prophet, Joseph Smith Jr., who saw Them. Others have seen Them since and will continue to see Them until Christ comes in His glory."


"From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent”
Journal of Discourses 7:289


"Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy...he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.... It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption."

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Status_in_LDS_belief#Question:_What_is_the_origin_of_the_idea_that_Joseph_Smith_will_participate_in_the_final_judgement.3F


"December is the Prophet Joseph Smith’s birth month and a good time to think about how we can encourage our youth to seek for their own testimonies of Joseph Smith and his divinely inspired call.”

https://www.lds.org/church/news/sister-bonnie-l-oscarson-help-youth-seek-a-testimony-of-the-prophet-joseph-smith?lang=eng






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13 hours ago, Gray said:

Indeed. Jesus was all about works and commandments.

Far more than most people realize.

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21 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I disagree with your position because it is incorrect. Whether in this life or the next every child of God will receive the opportunity to receive all of the ordinances of Exaltation - every child. What you are trying to force is a situation prevents an individual from entering the temple - let's take the example of when the temples were closed to Black people. The lived and died as members or not they each will receive their ordinances of Exaltation. If they were valiant in striving to live by the truths they were given they will be exalted in the same way every other individual is exalted. This appears to be an area where you have created straw men arguments due to your lack of understanding of the Plan of Salvation for all of God's children.

Based upon your lack of understanding you have made poor judgments and decisions. The salvation of God's children has never been dependent upon the prophets. There have been times when the Keys of the Priesthood were not on the earth and yet those children will be allowed the opportunity to receive all their ordinances of Exaltation. The role of prophets and apostles are to guide, to facilitate God's children to walk in righteousness. They also hold keys that allow us to receive ordinances in this life - but no child of God is strictly dependent on other men save Jesus Christ. 

Strawman burned up and put away. 

If you disagree with my position, then what is the purpose of having a prophet and apostles today who hold the "keys of the kingdom?"  Can temples be dedicated without the prophet/apostles and their priesthood keys?  Nope.  And if you can't enter the temple, then no exaltation, right?  You couldn't do the work for the dead in the first place without all of that...

These ordinances are required for exaltation today (not in some other imaginary plan or scenario); and only the church leadership today holds all the required keys.  

"Requirements for Exaltation

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.

2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

4. We must receive the temple endowment.

5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next."

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

If you would like to explain how exaltation is achieved (not in some what if scenario or under some other plan of salvation), without the priesthood, prophets/apostles, keys, ordaninces etc., I would like to know.

Edited by Ouagadougou
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14 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

If you disagree with my position, then what is the purpose of having a prophet and apostles today who hold the "keys of the kingdom?"  Can temples be dedicated without the prophet/apostles and their priesthood keys?  Nope.  And if you can't enter the temple, then no exaltation, right?  You couldn't do the work for the dead in the first place without all of that...

These ordinances are required for exaltation today (not in some other imaginary plan or scenario); and only the church leadership today holds all the required keys.  

"Requirements for Exaltation

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.

2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

4. We must receive the temple endowment.

5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next."

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

If you would like to explain how exaltation is achieved (not in some what if scenario or under some other plan of salvation), without the priesthood, prophets/apostles, keys, ordaninces etc., I would like to know.

It does not appear this conversation is going anywhere. Cheers

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On 11/4/2018 at 8:18 PM, cdowis said:

Let explain further.

When you are an exMormon, there is alot of competition to get a hearing of your story == you got ex-bishops, an area authority, veil worker,  apologists who have seen the light.  Now you have a missionary who renounced his religion in the middle of his mission and an exBYU professor.  It really takes alot nowdays to get any attention.

It's a tough business to sell books, tapes, give speeches.  You got to have a following.

A while back our local Ex-Mormons for Jesus leader advertised himself as a former Mormon Priest. He was in his 30s when he left the Church.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

"Strawman burned up and put away."

Cheers.

If it makes you sleep at night, go for it. I am not a patient man and don't easily tolerant nonsense. I see no need to keep explaining the same thing. You either understand or you choose to create a false story to fit your own agenda. 

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10 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

If it makes you sleep at night, go for it. I am not a patient man and don't easily tolerant nonsense. I see no need to keep explaining the same thing. You either understand or you choose to create a false story to fit your own agenda. 

Nonsense? Everything I provided was from the "LDS Gospel Principles Manual." 

Not my agenda or story.  

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

A while back our local Ex-Mormons for Jesus leader advertised himself as a form Mormon Priest. He was in his 30s when he left the Church.

And thus, in identifying himself as “a former Mormon priest” who fell away in his 30s, he damned himself with faint praise. 

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2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/read-the-first-presidencys-testimonies-of-joseph-smith-martyred-174-years-ago-today?lang=eng

“Like other faithful Latter-day Saints, I have built my life on the testimony and mission of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” President Oaks said. “In all of my reading and original research, I have never been dissuaded from my testimony of his prophetic calling and of the gospel and priesthood restoration the Lord initiated through him.”


https://www.lds.org/new-era/2017/04/testify-of-the-restoration?lang=eng

"Take away Joseph Smith and the First Vision, take away the events which followed, take away a direct restoration from heaven, and what do we have? We don’t have much—at least not enough to distinguish us from a thousand other good groups of people."

...

"And we cannot testify of Their great introductory appearance in our day without testifying of the divine calling of the young prophet, Joseph Smith Jr., who saw Them. Others have seen Them since and will continue to see Them until Christ comes in His glory."


"From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent”
Journal of Discourses 7:289


"Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy...he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.... It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption."

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Status_in_LDS_belief#Question:_What_is_the_origin_of_the_idea_that_Joseph_Smith_will_participate_in_the_final_judgement.3F


"December is the Prophet Joseph Smith’s birth month and a good time to think about how we can encourage our youth to seek for their own testimonies of Joseph Smith and his divinely inspired call.”

https://www.lds.org/church/news/sister-bonnie-l-oscarson-help-youth-seek-a-testimony-of-the-prophet-joseph-smith?lang=eng

Perhaps you can point out where any of this contradicts what I said.

All testimony is gained via the Holy Spirit - even a testimony in the mantle of a prophet.  Nothing said here alters that.

Of course I could give you a long list of quotes from prophets who teach us not to blindly trust and follow them, but I am too lazy.

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3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Perhaps you can point out where any of this contradicts what I said.

All testimony is gained via the Holy Spirit - even a testimony in the mantle of a prophet.  Nothing said here alters that.

Of course I could give you a long list of quotes from prophets who teach us not to blindly trust and follow them, but I am too lazy.

"I have never ever, ever heard a leader tell me that my testimony should be built on anything other than the confirmation of the Holy Spirit."

Leaders place a great deal on building a testimony of Joseph Smith as well.  

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7 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

"I have never ever, ever heard a leader tell me that my testimony should be built on anything other than the confirmation of the Holy Spirit."

Leaders place a great deal on building a testimony of Joseph Smith as well.  

As they should.  I never said otherwise.  A testimony of a prophet is no different from a testimony of anything else.  It comes after personal communion between the individual and God via the Holy Spirit.

I have a vibrant testimony of the mantle of Joseph Smith.  I have a testimony that he was called of God to restore the gospel in these last days.  I also know that he was a fallible man, as he frequently acknowledged; and as such he encouraged us to verify everything with God.

Im not quite sure what you are getting at here.  I don’t see a problem with asking God about a prophet.

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

Nonsense? Everything I provided was from the "LDS Gospel Principles Manual." 

Not my agenda or story.  

But it had absolutely nothing to do with his comment.  Ah well, hopefully it was fun for you to bash some internet stranger's faith. 

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And the seventh man listened to the prophet who was not blind and had seen the elephant and was enlightened.

The prophet is called a “seer” after all.  But there is still more elephant to be seen even by the prophets.

“We believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God”

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On 11/4/2018 at 1:44 PM, cdowis said:

minute 1 As Micah Wilder approaches the stage, he enjoys the applause of the crowd. Having left Mormonism, he's a real rock star, rather than just another nobody. He's on the speaking tour to tell his amazing story of salvation from this evil cult.

minute 17 At the end of his performance, the crowd roars with approval == he gave them what they wanted to hear He basks in their applause and cheers of approval.

He is saved! He is saved,! Hallelujah, he is saved from the grasp of Satan himself
Gives me chills.

(youtube)

I especially like the 17:06 minute mark.....

Yeah, I've heard this guy before. Actually his whole family left the Church. He seems to enjoy his "ministry" of going around the country collecting money to bad-mouth the Church. To each their own.

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35 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I especially like the 17:06 minute mark.....

Yeah, I've heard this guy before. Actually his whole family left the Church. He seems to enjoy his "ministry" of going around the country collecting money to bad-mouth the Church. To each their own.

CFR that they collect money, I wasn't aware that they did that. Thanks! :)

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