What? No authority needed to pass the sacrament?

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What I see in 3 Nephi 18 is that those who have anything to do with administering the sacrament - from preparing, to blessing, to passing, even to cleaning up - must be ordained as Jesus instructed. It is all part of administering. This is the eternal order of the Church when it comes to all ordinances.

 

Can you quote the verses (or parts of verses) that plainly teach that anyone who has anything to do with the sacrament must be ordained?  I think that would be really helpful.  

I appreciate your explanations of why you believe the verse says what you believe it says, but remember that the point of these discussion that some of us have been having with you is not what you say the verse says, but what the verse plainly says.  If you have to interpret the verse for me to show me what it says then it's not plainly in there.

What I'm asking for is a quote from the verse, with no explanation, that teaches that anyone who 1) prepares, 2) blesses, 3) passes and 4) cleans up the sacrament must be ordained. 

[Bernard Gui]

Double post

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Double post

Edited November 3, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

Can you quote the verses (or parts of verses) that plainly teach that anyone who has anything to do with the sacrament must be ordained?  I think that would be really helpful.  

I appreciate your explanations of why you believe the verse says what you believe it says, but remember that the point of these discussion that some of us have been having with you is not what you say the verse says, but what the verse plainly says.  If you have to interpret the verse for me to show me what it says then it's not plainly in there.

What I'm asking for is a quote from the verse, with no explanation, that teaches that anyone who 1) prepares, 2) blesses, 3) passes and 4) cleans up the sacrament must be ordained. 

Forget the clean up. I shouldn't have brought it up, although I consider it to be part of the ordinance and there are instructions for the teacher on how it should be done.

Quote

3 Nephi 18:3 And when the disciples had come with bread and wine, he took of the bread and [1] brake and [2] blessed it; and he [3] gave unto the disciples and commanded that they should eat.

4 And when they had eaten and were filled, he commanded that they should [3] give unto the multitude.

5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall [1] break bread and [2] bless it and [3] give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name.

6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have [1] broken bread and [2] blessed it and [3] given it unto you.

Then later,

Quote

3 Nephi 20 

1 And it came to pass that he commanded the multitude that they should cease to pray, and also his disciples. And he commanded them that they should not cease to pray in their hearts.

2 And he commanded them that they should arise and stand up upon their feet. And they arose up and stood upon their feet.

3 And it came to pass that he [1] brake bread again and [2] blessed it, and [3] gave to the disciples to eat.

4 And when they had eaten he commanded them that they should [1] break bread, and [3] give unto the multitude.

5 And when they had [3] given unto the multitude he also [3] gave them wine to drink, and commanded them that they should [3] give unto the multitude.

For your convenience, I also provide these quotes from the Handbook of Instructions (2) that define the Priesthood order in administering the sacrament.

Quote

Performance of a saving ordinance requires authorization from a priesthood leader who holds the appropriate keys or who functions under the direction of a person who holds those keys. Such authorization is also required for naming and blessing a child, dedicating a grave, giving a patriarchal blessing, and preparing, blessing, and passing the sacrament.

 A priesthood leader who oversees an ordinance or blessing ensures that the person who performs it has the necessary priesthood authority, is worthy, and knows and follows the proper procedures.

 When ordinances or blessings are performed in sacrament meeting, the bishop ensures that they are performed properly.

 Under the direction of the bishopric, priesthood holders bless the sacrament and pass it to members of the congregation during each sacrament meeting. Aaronic Priesthood holders usually perform these duties. Under the direction of the bishopric, the deacons quorum president has the privilege and responsibility to invite others to help pass the sacrament. When there are not enough deacons, he counsels with a member of the bishopric to determine who may be asked to assist.

 Every priesthood holder who participates in this ordinance should understand that he is acting on behalf of the Lord. The bishopric encourages priesthood holders to ponder the Savior’s Atonement as they [1] prepare, [2] bless, and [3] pass the sacrament. 

Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. 

 The sacred nature of this ordinance justifies the greatest care and preparation to ensure order and reverence. Assignments to bless and pass the sacrament should be made in advance. Those who participate should be seated reverently before the meeting begins.

A priesthood holder who has committed a serious transgression should not prepare, bless, or pass the sacrament until he has repented and resolved the matter with his bishop.

Blessing and Passing the Sacrament

Priests and Melchizedek Priesthood holders may bless the sacrament. Deacons, teachers, priests, and Melchizedek Priesthood holders may pass the sacrament.

After the prayer deacons or other priesthood holders pass the bread to the congregationin a reverent and orderly manner. The presiding officer receives the sacrament first….

While the presiding officer is receiving the sacrament, others who are passing the sacrament may walk to their designated places.

After a priesthood holder hands a sacrament tray to a member, others may pass the tray from one to another for convenience.

When brethren finish passing the bread, they return the trays to the sacrament table. Those officiating at the sacrament table place the cloth over the bread trays and uncover the water trays….

 After the prayer [over the water], deacons or other priesthood holders pass the water to the congregation.When they finish, they return the trays to the sacrament table, wait for the officiators to cover the trays, then reverently take their seats.

 

 

Quote

Matthew 26:

26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and [1] blessed it, and [2] brake it, and [3] gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and [2] gave thanks, and [3] gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

Sorry for the confusion. The formatting of the last quote keeps getting messed up when I save it.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[LittleNipper]

So what exactly makes one a priesthood authority?  

Edited November 4, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Anakin7]

    Here we go again, is this not endless ?

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Christian, Saint, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

So what exactly makes one a priesthood authority?  

Perhaps when Jesus says, "I ordain you and give you power." What do you think?

 

4 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    Here we go again, is this not endless ?

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Christian, Saint, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Thanks for the reminder of the Atonement, but what is your comment? 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[LittleNipper]

And who reported Jesus saying that to any in the Mormon church claiming authority today? And who reported Jesus saying it concerning Mr. Smith?

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks for the reminder of the Atonement, but what is your comment? 

I thought Anakin was replying to Little Nipper. 

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

And who reported Jesus saying that to any in the Mormon church claiming authority today? And who reported Jesus saying it concerning Mr. Smith?

 it's not the Mormon church. it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[BlueDreams]

On 11/3/2018 at 1:14 AM, Bernard Gui said:

I’m afraid you do not understand what I am saying, but not for want of explanation, much of which you appear to ignore, but that’s fine.

it seems to me the sticking point is just who is giving it to the people? The priests do not. They give it to the deacons who carry it to the people. The deacons act as official agents of the priests. To participate in administering the ordinance in this manner the deacons must be ordained. That’s how I see it. We have the evidence in the manner the Church has done this since the beginning.

I can state that it is surely evidence to me. Note the word that I have consistently used....”evidence” not “proof.” This is what you seem not to understand. Once again,  it is simply evidence that those who pass the sacrament (at the altar and carrying it to the congregation - the deacons in our day-) must be authorized to administer the sacrament by virtue of their ordination to the Aaronic Priesthood. I believe this follows the pattern established in the administration of the temple ordinances.

 

You are free to disagree. Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

No, I get what you're saying. I just don't think what you're deeming as evidence is sufficient evidence for the specific practice as you mentioned. It's not saying what you're saying without assuming so from the get go.

A different example would be reading the wording in the WoW and state that it is evidence that we shouldn't misuse prescription drugs or drink caffeine....or that the reason we don't drink tea or coffee is because of said caffeine. No where does it actually say something like that in the WoW...the only way you get to that is by inserting current practices or beliefs into the meaning of the text. Which is okay...I use the WoW to support my current practice in trying to eat healthy, avoiding addictive substances and high-processed food, and being vegetarian. I see it as supportive of what I'm doing. But it should be acknowledged what the text says or doesn't say. I know that the WoW  doesn't actually say you should stop eating high-processed foods or added sugar for example....it's not sufficient evidence for it...but the idea behind it can still support what I view as right. This allows the flexibility for us to change practice when needed and allow for adaptation or differing interpretations for others....while striving in our time to live the foundational doctrine. I do not believe either one of us is talking absolute proofs (though, speaking of synonyms....evidence and proof are also synonyms of each other. Still, I get what you're trying to convey). 

If it is only "evidence to me" and few to no one else can say the same, it's opinion. It's not doing enough to indicate your belief is true or valid (the basic definition of evidence). 

On the bold, as a temple worker who often performs and administers the sacred ordinances to my fellow sisters each week, I don't see the same direct parallel in the sacrament that you are inferring to. In fact in my opinion, it could better parallel by having YW participate. Note, this is my opinion. 

 

Quote

Do you believe any member can take the trays from the priests and pass them to the congregation? If so, what is your evidence? Would the passer even have to be a member? Why?

The text can support our current practice and I'm currently okay with our current practices. But I am open and can see value in potential changes to said practices that in my mind wouldn't invalidate the same doctrinal edict we're both reading. A change that had Young Women also passing, for example, would not violate the scripture you've quoted several times (in essence my "evidence" is the same scripture you're using....but I wouldn't call it evidence, just feasibly congruent with the doctrine). I could also point to the same quote blueglass pointed out to earlier in this thread about women participating in the work of the priesthood. I could also point to the order in the temple and that having priesthood authority to perform ordinances doesn't just happen for those ordained. That women may also play an active part in priesthood ordinances and giving said emblems. Since it's an ordinance, reaffirming other ordinances and promises we've actively committed to through baptism (and aspire to/taken on through the temple)...it makes sense to me that those who have entered said covenants would be the ones to actively participate in helping with said covenants. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited November 4, 2018 by BlueDreams

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

And who reported Jesus saying that to any in the Mormon church claiming authority today? And who reported Jesus saying it concerning Mr. Smith?

Seriously?

.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I thought Anakin was replying to Little Nipper. 

Ah! I guess there must be a history of which I am not aware. Thanks.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

No, I get what you're saying. I just don't think what you're deeming as evidence is sufficient evidence for the specific practice as you mentioned. It's not saying what you're saying without assuming so from the get go.

I refer you to my reply to Bluebell above for my line of reasoning.

Quote

A different example would be reading the wording in the WoW and state that it is evidence that we shouldn't misuse prescription drugs or drink caffeine....or that the reason we don't drink tea or coffee is because of said caffeine. No where does it actually say something like that in the WoW...the only way you get to that is by inserting current practices or beliefs into the meaning of the text. Which is okay...I use the WoW to support my current practice in trying to eat healthy, avoiding addictive substances and high-processed food, and being vegetarian. I see it as supportive of what I'm doing. But it should be acknowledged what the text says or doesn't say. I know that the WoW  doesn't actually say you should stop eating high-processed foods or added sugar for example....it's not sufficient evidence for it...but the idea behind it can still support what I view as right. This allows the flexibility for us to change practice when needed and allow for adaptation or differing interpretations for others....while striving in our time to live the foundational doctrine. I do not believe either one of us is talking absolute proofs (though, speaking of synonyms....evidence and proof are also synonyms of each other. Still, I get what you're trying to convey). 

The evidence is the repeated explicit command to the 12 give to the people, their subsequent obedience, His commendatiomfor their obedience, and his commandment to always do it that way. Giving opus clearly a part of the ordinsnce he he gave them power to give, It is nothing like extrapolating things from the WoW.

Quote

If it is only "evidence to me" and few to no one else can say the same, it's opinion. It's not doing enough to indicate your belief is true or valid (the basic definition of evidence). 

On the bold, as a temple worker who often performs and administers the sacred ordinances to my fellow sisters each week, I don't see the same direct parallel in the sacrament that you are inferring to. In fact in my opinion, it could better parallel by having YW participate. Note, this is my opinion. 

We decide on the validity of evidence all the time. What is evidence to 7/jurors nut not to 6 can be a serious matter. The pattern I am referring to in the temple is giving the sacred things to each individual by command of God and giving the sacrament to each individual by command of God. This was in response to the “hole” that the sacrament is passed along rows by non-priesthood holders. The Handbook of Instructions verifies that this is done for convenience. It is not done that way in the temple. Clearly it is intended to be a personal thing, and that is what i was pointing out.

Quote

The text can support our current practice and I'm currently okay with our current practices.

Well, thank you. That has been my thesis from the start.

Quote

But I am open and can see value in potential changes to said practices that in my mind wouldn't invalidate the same doctrinal edict we're both reading. A change that had Young Women also passing, for example, would not violate the scripture you've quoted several times (in essence my "evidence" is the same scripture you're using....but I wouldn't call it evidence, just feasibly congruent with the doctrine). I could also point to the same quote blueglass pointed out to earlier in this thread about women participating in the work of the priesthood. I could also point to the order in the temple and that having priesthood authority to perform ordinances doesn't just happen for those ordained. That women may also play an active part in priesthood ordinances and giving said emblems. Since it's an ordinance, reaffirming other ordinances and promises we've actively committed to through baptism (and aspire to/taken on through the temple)...it makes sense to me that those who have entered said covenants would be the ones to actively participate in helping with said covenants. 

Interesting. This would require radical changes to the order of the priesthood as defined in the Doctrine and Covenants and Handbook of Instructions and would most probably require ordination of women to the priesthood. Anything is possible. Time well tell.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[LittleNipper]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

 it's not the Mormon church. it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So why is it called THE BOOK OF MORMON? Why not call it THE BOOK OF THE  LATTER-DAY SAINTS?

[LittleNipper]

18 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    Here we go again, is this not endless ?

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Christian, Saint, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

So when did the water become His blood? Is that anything like the Roman Catholic version of transubstantiation?

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

So why is it called THE BOOK OF MORMON? Why not call it THE BOOK OF THE  LATTER-DAY SAINTS?

Because Mormon was the main author/editor of the book.  The book itself is about the early saints as well, not modern times.

Could you please stop using caps.  That generally signifies yelling, it makes your writing more difficult to read as well.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Calm

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Seriously?

.

Seriously! Protestants certainly accept Bible training and or a seminary education; however, none of these groups believe they've cornered the market on "AUTHORITY". We certainly believe that the Holy Spirit plays an influence in who may become become a pastor, youth pastor, missionary, deacon; however, aside from that we acknowledge that the Bible is authoritative.  And when a new pastor is ordained there is certainly a laying on of hands by the area Evangelical community. but no supernatural power is being claimed or transferred --- only divine guidance and direction. 

[LittleNipper]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because Mormon was the main author/editor of the book.  The book itself is about the early saints as well, not modern times.

Could you please stop using caps.  That generally signifies yelling, it makes your writing more difficult to read as well.

 

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because Mormon was the main author/editor of the book.  The book itself is about the early saints as well, not modern times.

Could you please stop using caps.  That generally signifies yelling, it makes your writing more difficult to read as well.

No, I will not quit using cap where I'm trying to emphasize a point. If that bothers you perhaps you might just consider that there are not a few things you do that bother me; however, I just overlook what I might consider rude to some immaturity on your part. I imagine that you'd have a problem with cursive as well... 

Edited November 4, 2018 by LittleNipper

[bluebell]

20 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Forget the clean up. I shouldn't have brought it up, although I consider it to be part of the ordinance and there are instructions for the teacher on how it should be done.

Then later,

For your convenience, I also provide these quotes from the Handbook of Instructions (2) that define the Priesthood order in administering the sacrament.

 

Sorry for the confusion. The formatting of the last quote keeps getting messed up when I save it.

Thanks for taking the time to answer that and provide the references.  I appreciate it.  Is there any part of the verses that you quoted (in your opinion) that could not be covered by an ordained person giving the sacrament to an unordained person, after they have blessed it.

For example, what reference prohibits a priest, after having prepared and blessed the sacrament, from giving it (or passing it) to an unordained person, rather than to another ordained person? I don't see one in what you have quoted but I'm interested in your take on it.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

 

No, I will not quit using cap where I'm trying to emphasize a point. If That bothers you perhaps you might just consider that there are not a few things you do that bother me; however, I just overlook what I might consider rude to some immaturity on your part.

Or she can just ignore your posts.  That's what I do with posts that I find difficult to read.

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Seriously! Protestants certainly accept Bible training and or a seminary education; however, none of these groups believe they've cornered the market on "AUTHORITY". We certainly believe that the Holy Spirit plays an influence in who may become become a pastor, youth pastor, missionary, deacon; however, aside from that we acknowledge that the Bible is authoritative.  And when a new pastor is ordained there is certainly a laying on of hands by the area Evangelical community. but no supernatural power is being claimed or transferred --- only divine guidance and direction. 

Great.  Members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that God has clarified that the protestants are doing it wrong so we don't do it that way.

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

So why is it called THE BOOK OF MORMON? Why not call it THE BOOK OF THE  LATTER-DAY SAINTS?

Because it's a book that was compiled by a man named Mormon.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

 

No, I will not quit using cap where I'm trying to emphasize a point. If that bothers you perhaps you might just consider that there are not a few things you do that bother me; however, I just overlook what I might consider rude to some immaturity on your part. I imagine that you'd have a problem with cursive as well... 

No, I was going to suggest italics or underlining.

[Calm]

Nvm

Edited November 4, 2018 by Calm