Hamba Tuhan Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, sunstoned said: Nice response. It's right out of apologetic 101: when your position is indefensible, attack the messenger. Nice response. It's right out of critics 101: when your attempts to paint others as illogical (and 'ridiculous'!) don't hold up, claim they're the ones attacking the messenger. Edited October 11, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 4
RevTestament Posted October 11, 2018 Author Posted October 11, 2018 Unfortunately, this thread had degenerated into more than a page of personal argument. If no one has anything else to say on the OP or close to the subject matter at least, I will request that the thread get shut down. Thank you to those who shared their sincere feelings on the subject, including those with concerns about proper respect to prior Church Presidents and GAs. I will state that it seems the biggest concern doesn't have to do with the instruction itself to the Church to change course. This is encouraging to me. I believe some are somewhat invested in being known as Mormon, and this new instruction may feel a little like a slap on the face. Some don't look forward to the effort involved in switching gears, and feel this is all a bit of an irritation. So that even some of the unorthodox saints who post here have expressed that they are on board with the change in emphasis is especially encouraging. It shows that the Church still has a will to make changes for the better. Let me just state that I believe Pres Nelson that the Lord has impressed upon his mind the need to try to encourage the public to call us The Church of Jesus Christ. All the details around that I accept as his ideas of how to accomplish the task. These may include statements which concern people or cause them to have doubts. I believe most of us believe we have received personal revelation - usually it is a broad confirmation without any detail of how to exactly accomplish a task. To the extent that Pres Nelson gave some reasons or suggestions about the change, i suggest that we accept those in the spirit of trying to help us make the change rather than as direct instruction from the Lord. However, maybe we will get further clarification on some of these concerns which may prove me wrong. I certainly do not wish to put words in the mouth of Pres Nelson. Nevertheless, clearly some of the things he mentioned were merely suggestions... such as how to respond to the question of whether we are a Mormon. Clearly, the instruction is not direct instruction from the Lord, but a suggestion of one of a myriad of possible ways to respond. Treating every word as if the Lord told Pres Nelson exactly what to say, is I think clearly not appropriate, so I am not concerned about minutiae of whether this is change or a correction, for instance. I hope members can get passed the microanalyzing and move ahead in the spirit of the instruction to us. It is scriptural. I believe it will eventually help the Church be more associated with our Savior, Jesus Christ, and perhaps may serve to allay some of the past difficulties for those who wish to convert to the restored gospel. It will take some time, and it will take some patience, but that should be nothing new for the saints. May our Savior bless us in our efforts. Amen. 1
Stargazer Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 34 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Unfortunately, this thread had degenerated into more than a page of personal argument. If no one has anything else to say on the OP or close to the subject matter at least, I will request that the thread get shut down. Thank you to those who shared their sincere feelings on the subject, including those with concerns about proper respect to prior Church Presidents and GAs. Nothing is more certain than the reaction of the critics. It's become a huge monotonic anti-climax. 1
SouthernMo Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Nothing is more certain than the reaction of the critics. It's become a huge monotonic anti-climax. This could be true. The question I’d encourage you to consider is: if you don’t like it, are you going to do something to change it, or just complain about it?
Navidad Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it has been my impression that you don't believe that any utterance from a General Authority is the word of God. That ... or God really is in this. That you don't believe so may tell us more about your attitude towards God and prophets than about what really has happened in this case. People who do believe in both God and prophets can surely be excused for reaching a different conclusion. I suspect this throwaway line may work somewhat better in critical forums than it does here. As I explained above -- and will now repeat -- we don't believe that God holds past prophets accountable for things He may say to their successors. Which God do you have in mind? Well, at least you understand how I frequently feel, then, when I browse apostate forums. Good morning: Just a quick question. You make a number of dichotomies in your reply. Does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that "every" word out of a current prophet's mouth is the voice of God? Not talking about whether he prefers vanilla or chocolate, but every time he says this is from God; do the saints believe it is? I have read the 15 points of Benson about the prophet and believe them to be extreme (not that that matters) and so apparently to members of our ward. Can the prophet/president ever be incorrect when he speaks as the result of a "prompting" as President Nelson first termed this change? This is a genuine question from one who does not know the answer. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Navidad said: This is a genuine question from one who does not know the answer. Brutally honest response: there is only one way to know the answer, and it won't be from my telling you. 3
Navidad Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 5 hours ago, RevTestament said: Unfortunately, this thread had degenerated into more than a page of personal argument. If no one has anything else to say on the OP or close to the subject matter at least, I will request that the thread get shut down. Thank you to those who shared their sincere feelings on the subject, including those with concerns about proper respect to prior Church Presidents and GAs. I will state that it seems the biggest concern doesn't have to do with the instruction itself to the Church to change course. This is encouraging to me. I believe some are somewhat invested in being known as Mormon, and this new instruction may feel a little like a slap on the face. Some don't look forward to the effort involved in switching gears, and feel this is all a bit of an irritation. So that even some of the unorthodox saints who post here have expressed that they are on board with the change in emphasis is especially encouraging. It shows that the Church still has a will to make changes for the better. Let me just state that I believe Pres Nelson that the Lord has impressed upon his mind the need to try to encourage the public to call us The Church of Jesus Christ. All the details around that I accept as his ideas of how to accomplish the task. These may include statements which concern people or cause them to have doubts. I believe most of us believe we have received personal revelation - usually it is a broad confirmation without any detail of how to exactly accomplish a task. To the extent that Pres Nelson gave some reasons or suggestions about the change, i suggest that we accept those in the spirit of trying to help us make the change rather than as direct instruction from the Lord. However, maybe we will get further clarification on some of these concerns which may prove me wrong. I certainly do not wish to put words in the mouth of Pres Nelson. Nevertheless, clearly some of the things he mentioned were merely suggestions... such as how to respond to the question of whether we are a Mormon. Clearly, the instruction is not direct instruction from the Lord, but a suggestion of one of a myriad of possible ways to respond. Treating every word as if the Lord told Pres Nelson exactly what to say, is I think clearly not appropriate, so I am not concerned about minutiae of whether this is change or a correction, for instance. I hope members can get passed the microanalyzing and move ahead in the spirit of the instruction to us. It is scriptural. I believe it will eventually help the Church be more associated with our Savior, Jesus Christ, and perhaps may serve to allay some of the past difficulties for those who wish to convert to the restored gospel. It will take some time, and it will take some patience, but that should be nothing new for the saints. May our Savior bless us in our efforts. Amen. Well said!
Navidad Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Brutally honest response: there is only one way to know the answer, and it won't be from my telling you. Ok Thanks. I have no idea what that means, but I'll say thanks and have a good day anyway!
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 Just now, Navidad said: I have no idea what that means, but I'll say thanks and have a good day anyway! Sorry to be unclear -- certainly not my intention. It's one of our basic beliefs. God reveals truth to individuals. If you want to know if He is inspiring Russel M. Nelson, you need to take up the matter with Him. I could attempt to give you an answer, but it would be my answer, and that's not what you need. 2
Navidad Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Sorry to be unclear -- certainly not my intention. It's one of our basic beliefs. God reveals truth to individuals. If you want to know if He is inspiring Russel M. Nelson, you need to take up the matter with Him. I could attempt to give you an answer, but it would be my answer, and that's not what you need. Ok Thanks. Just to clarify, I attend a ward on a very faithful and regular basis, but I am not a member of the Church. So I am trying to learn.
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, Navidad said: Just to clarify, I attend a ward on a very faithful and regular basis, but I am not a member of the Church. So I am trying to learn. I know. I understand and wish you the very best in whatever direction God takes you!
rockpond Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: No it didn’t. It promoted the public image of Latter-day Saints, who happen to be widely known as Mormons. Your derision and mockery does not make you right. Nor does your ridiculous denial of what was done but I get why you feel the need to do it.
rockpond Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Lord never told President Monson or anyone else to “place heavy emphasis on referring to the Church as ‘the Mormon church.’” For at least the past decade or two the Church leaders have been trying to get people NOT to do that. Obviously you haven’t been paying attention. Referring to members as Mormons or using Mormon as a descriptor or Mormonism to refer to the teachings of the Church has been tolerated up to now, but even those things are disallowed now with the recent instruction from President Nelson. Intentionally running a global ad campaign = “tolerated”. 3
rockpond Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Only if God told them not to and they did it anyway. Past prophets aren't accountable for not knowing current instructions. As someone formerly affiliated with the Church, you should know this. I’m concerned with the implication of your statement. I get that past prophets aren’t accountable for knowing current instructions. But this is something that “offends the Lord” and was a “victory for Satan”... should we expect the Lord to not let prophets do such things? Do they not converse?
10THAmendment Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Lord never told President Monson or anyone else to “place heavy emphasis on referring to the Church as ‘the Mormon church.’” For at least the past decade or two the Church leaders have been trying to get people NOT to do that. Obviously you haven’t been paying attention. Referring to members as Mormons or using Mormon as a descriptor or Mormonism to refer to the teachings of the Church has been tolerated up to now, but even those things are disallowed now with the recent instruction from President Nelson. It hasn't been tolerated, it has been encouraged. Do you not remember the whole "I'm a Mormon" campaign that the First Presidency endorsed? What do you mean I haven't been paying attention? Pres. Hinckley wanted to do away with the whole Mormon thing, Pres. Monson encouraged it, and now Pres. Nelson is agreeing with Pres. Hinckley.
Gray Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 Quote Anyone who comes to know the man Mormon, through the reading and pondering of his words, anyone who reads this precious trove of history which was assembled and preserved in large measure by him, will come to know that Mormon is not a word of disrepute, but that it represents the greatest good—that good which is of God... I testify that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that when people speak of us by the name of this book, they will compliment us, if we will live worthy of the name, remembering that in a very real sense Mormonism must mean that greater good which the Lord Jesus Christ exemplified. - Gordon B. Hinckley
rockpond Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 33 minutes ago, Gray said: Anyone who comes to know the man Mormon, through the reading and pondering of his words, anyone who reads this precious trove of history which was assembled and preserved in large measure by him, will come to know that Mormon is not a word of disrepute, but that it represents the greatest good—that good which is of God... I testify that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that when people speak of us by the name of this book, they will compliment us, if we will live worthy of the name, remembering that in a very real sense Mormonism must mean that greater good which the Lord Jesus Christ exemplified. - Gordon B. Hinckley Another victory for Satan. 1
RevTestament Posted October 11, 2018 Author Posted October 11, 2018 22 minutes ago, rockpond said: Another victory for Satan. I am tired of the spirit of my OP being ignored. The pursuit of this mono-one liner has gotten old, so I have requested the thread be closed. Again thank you to those who have voiced their opinions and concerns. 3
rockpond Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 24 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I am tired of the spirit of my OP being ignored. The pursuit of this mono-one liner has gotten old, so I have requested the thread be closed. Again thank you to those who have voiced their opinions and concerns. Sorry... I thought quoting the Prophet's address (that you cited in your OP) was okay.
Avatar4321 Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Navidad said: Ok Thanks. I have no idea what that means, but I'll say thanks and have a good day anyway! James 1:5-6
HappyJackWagon Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 43 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I am tired of the spirit of my OP being ignored. The pursuit of this mono-one liner has gotten old, so I have requested the thread be closed. Again thank you to those who have voiced their opinions and concerns. You're wanting/expecting an echo chamber of your praise for Pres. Nelson's talk? Doesn't sound much like a discussion. But I can understand how continually defending the silliness of the name correction and the rationale behind it can be exhausting.
RevTestament Posted October 11, 2018 Author Posted October 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, rockpond said: Sorry... I thought quoting the Prophet's address (that you cited in your OP) was okay. Back on page 11 I requested another poster to stay on topic, which from the OP is: How do you plan to follow Pres. Nelson's admonition? If you are not an LDS Christian, what do you think of the new emphasis not to be labeled "a Mormon"? He chose to bow out of the discussion apparently having little or nothing positive to contribute. I have allowed some to express their concerns with following Pres Nelson's directives, and appreciate their sincere concerns, but the discussion has continued to devolve into more of a cynical attack and jibes.
RevTestament Posted October 11, 2018 Author Posted October 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: You're wanting/expecting an echo chamber of your praise for Pres. Nelson's talk? Doesn't sound much like a discussion. But I can understand how continually defending the silliness of the name correction and the rationale behind it can be exhausting. i will defend the name of our Savior and the name of His Church even against the gates of Hell. Actually I have been doing it for 20 years, and it is the least I can do for Him. What does YHWH mean to you? What's in a name? Sorry you feel it is silly. I suppose I am a little tired after 20 years - I still have a few years to go. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." - Reinhold 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 3 hours ago, 10THAmendment said: It hasn't been tolerated, it has been encouraged. Do you not remember the whole "I'm a Mormon" campaign that the First Presidency endorsed? What do you mean I haven't been paying attention? Pres. Hinckley wanted to do away with the whole Mormon thing, Pres. Monson encouraged it, and now Pres. Nelson is agreeing with Pres. Hinckley. The point of the I’m a Mormon campaign was never to get people to call it “the Mormon Church”, as you falsely asserted. The Church leaders have long disapproved of that even while they tolerated members of the Church being called Mormons. There is a distinction there that you appear to be having trouble recognizing.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 5 hours ago, rockpond said: Intentionally running a global ad campaign = “tolerated”. Again, the point of the campaign was not to promote the name “Mormon.” It was to improve the public image of those who were already being called “Mormon.” As often as you deliberately spread disinformation, I can correct you. Why don’t you just stop the pointless exercise and save us both the bother?
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