rockpond Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The only one I’ve seen claiming that past prophets were leading the Church astray is you. Others are referring to it as “throwing previous prophets under the bus”. I’m attempting to be more precise. And I’ve asked for an explanation of how the church wasn’t led astray in light of Pres. Nelson’s conference talk but nobody has been able to offer any reasonable explanations without recasting his message and/or revising history. 2 Link to comment
bluebell Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, rockpond said: Others are referring to it as “throwing previous prophets under the bus”. I’m attempting to be more precise. And I’ve asked for an explanation of how the church wasn’t led astray in light of Pres. Nelson’s conference talk but nobody has been able to offer any reasonable explanations without recasting his message and/or revising history. Do we have a quote of what exactly it was that Pres. Nelson said? I remember the gist but I’d really like to work from a quote if possible. Link to comment
JAHS Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 25 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I’m sorry, but this explanation does not make sense to me because President Nelson clearly called this a “course correction.” A course correction indicates a wrong direction in the past that needed to be changed. If your explanation that the term Mormon has served its purpose, and now we should move on does not make sense. If that were the case, President Nelson would not have called it a course correction, but something like a new direction. It was a course correction but at a time that God wanted the course to be corrected. 2 Link to comment
Teancum Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: If you want to know what President Nelson is saying, I suggest you read or listen to his general conference talk. He was more than clear. Yep. Using the word Mormon is a tool of Satan. Mormon Tabernacle Choir.. a tool of Satan. Meet the Mormons... a tool of Satan. Mormon Newsroom... a tool of Satan And the list can go on. I guess all those prophets between Brigham Young and President Nelson just were not listening to well. They might have been tools of Satan as well. 1 Link to comment
Teancum Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, rockpond said: We should be ashamed for taking that instruction lightly even though the church was spending millions to promote the Mormon name? What did the Lord think of all those other applications of Mormon? If He was going to instruct His prophet in 2018 that using the proper name of the church was non-negotiable, why let previous prophets spend so much time and effort promoting the Mormon name? Well, let's see...you have a point. And this as all utter pablum and foolishness. How sad President Nelson seems to be making this his hallmark. Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, JAHS said: It was a course correction but at a time that God wanted the course to be corrected. Seems like a stretch of an explanation to me. If I was asked how I got from point ‘A’ to point ‘B’, and described how I went straight, then turned right to get to point ‘B’, I would not say: “I was going straight, which was the wrong way, then I corrected my course and went right. It supports Satan to go straight, and we have always been commanded to go right.” Maybe not a perfect analogy. If President Nelson had said that this was a new direction, or that the Lord had revealed to him that it was now time for us to retake the full name of the church, I wouldn’t struggle so much. 2 Link to comment
Teancum Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: It was never promoted as <the name of the Church.> On the contrary, we were explicitly asked <not> to use it for that, and many were cavalier about receiving that instruction. Uhh no Scott. Not really. Yea a few years ago the effort was made then it died out without much effort an o the LDS leaders part. I guess they were tools of Satan. But Not so much before that. But your song and dance on this is funny to watch. Link to comment
JAHS Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: Do we have a quote of what exactly it was that Pres. Nelson said? I remember the gist but I’d really like to work from a quote if possible. You can listen to it again here: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/media/session_4_talk_11/5845645176001?lang=eng Link to comment
JAHS Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: that the Lord had revealed to him that it was now time for us to retake the full name of the church, I wouldn’t struggle so much. That is pretty much what he said. 1 Link to comment
Teancum Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, SouthernMo said: I guarantee you that President Nelson sustained the use of the word Mormon in all those applications when he was a member of the 12 before joining the first presidency. He likely sustained the initiatives because the man in charge LDS church president) wanted them. Now that he’s in charge, he’s asking us to sustain him because he wants these changes - even if they are changes back. This statement by President Nelson has hurt my testimony that the president of the church is a prophet of God. Who got it wrong - President Nelson, or those ‘prophets’ who came before him who so happily took on the Mormon label? BINGO! Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 minute ago, JAHS said: That is pretty much what he said. Not what I heard him say and I’ve watched it three times searching for answers and clarity. Link to comment
JAHS Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Seems like a stretch of an explanation to me. If I was asked how I got from point ‘A’ to point ‘B’, and described how I went straight, then turned right to get to point ‘B’, I would not say: “I was going straight, which was the wrong way, then I corrected my course and went right. It supports Satan to go straight, and we have always been commanded to go right.” Maybe not a perfect analogy. If President Nelson had said that this was a new direction, or that the Lord had revealed to him that it was now time for us to retake the full name of the church, I wouldn’t struggle so much. Sometime the best course to a destination is not always a straight line. Link to comment
JAHS Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 minute ago, SouthernMo said: Not what I heard him say and I’ve watched it three times searching for answers and clarity. I mean the part about the Lord revealing it to him. Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 minute ago, JAHS said: Sometime the best course to a destination is not always a straight line. True. But President Nelson did not characterize this as all part of one godly path. It is very clear that he communicated this as being wrong in the past, and that he is now correcting it. 1 Link to comment
Teancum Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: All I’ve said is that we were asked in the past to use the proper name of the Church and not to substitute “Mormon Church” or “LDS Church” andbthat many have ignored or resisted that instruction. That is true. It is not “revisionist history.” I call on you to stop mischaracterizing my words. In the past? Oh really? Only in the recent past. Before that nope. You really cannot defend this Scott. Mormon has been a label the members of the Church, both leaders and members, have claimed proudly for the majority of the Church's history. It is astounding that the new LDS President is driving a stake in the ground on this. Especially given all the other significant issues he could drive a stake in the ground about if God were really speaking to him. This shows me that God really does not speak to him,. It seem pretty clear to anyone who is willing to challenge their cherished paradigms. 1 Link to comment
rockpond Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 18 minutes ago, bluebell said: Do we have a quote of what exactly it was that Pres. Nelson said? I remember the gist but I’d really like to work from a quote if possible. I don’t have time to transcribe the talk but I’m sure it will be posted soon. 1 Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 minute ago, JAHS said: I mean the part about the Lord revealing it to him. Yes, he said the Lord revealed it to him. We agree there. But, we seem to disagree about whether or not this is, or if President Nelson characterized this as a course correction or as part of a planned out path for the church. Link to comment
Teancum Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Prophets give instruction according to changing needs and conditions. Wise people hearken to them resisting or reviling them. Wise people actually evaluate evidence and facts and try to put aside dearly held preconceived notions. They try to avid confirmation bias. They are willing to set aside cherished beliefs when the facts and evidence contradict the cherished beliefs. Wise people avoid the mental gymnastics you seem to be promoting. Link to comment
rockpond Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Yes, he said the Lord revealed it to him. We agree there. But, we seem to disagree about whether or not this is, or if President Nelson characterized this as a course correction or as part of a planned out path for the church. If the church’s course had to be corrected, doesn’t that indicate the church was “astray” (off course)? Edited October 9, 2018 by rockpond 2 Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, rockpond said: If the church’s course had to be corrected, doesn’t that indicate the church as “astray” (off course)? Exactly. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: If the church’s course had to be corrected, doesn’t that indicate the church as “astray” (off course)? I personally always felt that way about the entire 'I'm a Mormon' branding. 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Exiled said: So, is the name change the go to answer when a non-member asks what the latest word is from the Lord? I would be more likely to mention new temples. Edited October 9, 2018 by Calm 1 Link to comment
RevTestament Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, rockpond said: If the church’s course had to be corrected, doesn’t that indicate the church as “astray” (off course)? 10 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Exactly. When the Church changed direction and stopped allowing polygamy, did that mean it had been astray? Obviously some believed that the Church was going astray, and as a result there are numerous unaffiliated polygamy sects. So here it the new groove: "we are going to split off and start the true Mormon Church." Alrighty then. They will be breaking scripture too which says the Church is comprised of members who confirm their president. Did you confirm your President? What about his words are unscriptural? or difficult to follow? Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, RevTestament said: When the Church changed direction and stopped allowing polygamy, did that mean it had been astray? Obviously some believed that the Church was going astray, and as a result there are numerous unaffiliated polygamy sects. So here it the new groove: "we are going to split off and start the true Mormon Church." Alrighty then. They will be breaking scripture too which says the Church is comprised of members who confirm their president. Did you confirm your President? What about his words are unscriptural? or difficult to follow? When polygamy was abandoned, President Wilford woodruff was clear that it was a change of direction. He did not characterize his revelation as a course correction, implying that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor were wrong to practice it. Your comparison is not apt. 2 Link to comment
rockpond Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, RevTestament said: When the Church changed direction and stopped allowing polygamy, did that mean it had been astray? Obviously some believed that the Church was going astray, and as a result there are numerous unaffiliated polygamy sects. So here it the new groove: "we are going to split off and start the true Mormon Church." Alrighty then. They will be breaking scripture too which says the Church is comprised of members who confirm their president. Did you confirm your President? What about his words are unscriptural? or difficult to follow? I actually do believe that the church had been led astray in how we were practicing polygamy. But there are differences between the manifesto and Pres. Nelson’s message: Pres. Woodruff didn’t claim that polygamy offended the Lord or that it was a victory for Satan. We still believe in polygamy as an eternal principle. Is there a scripture that says the “church is comprised of members who confirm their president”? Can you remind me which scripture that is? And technically, President Nelson was set apart as the president and prophet before any of us had the opportunity to sustain the action. 1 Link to comment
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