Forget S.E.T.I. - We're the only ones here!

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not saddling anyone with anything! 🙂 I'm saying that radio is a natural and almost inevitable stage in technological progress.  And if it is superseded by something better, any technological civilization will, if only for a relatively short time, use radio.  And if they are close enough to our solar system, perhaps we could detect their signals.

I would like to see a scientific report on the utility of radio waves in detecting other civilizations in our galaxy.  I understand that they are not that useful or detectable, and you seem to understand that propinquity is an issue.  What does SETI look for, specifically?

[Nofear]

Given that faith is one of the requisite conditions for our mortal probation to meet its primary intended purposes, I do not see a situation where we'll learn of and communicate with extra-terrestrial intelligent life.

I do believe that our galaxy is chalk full of world inhabited by the sons and daughters of various Adams and Eves and that they very probably look very much like this planet's humans. The scientific probability of that occurring is so remote that finding another intelligent civilization and communication enough with them to learn what they are like, that they believe in heavenly parents and such... that would make it much harder, in my opinion, for atheism or even agnosticism to persist. I could be wrong, but I'm going all in on the bet that we won't find and communicate with our fellow siblings on other worlds. Maybe during he Millennium, but even then I would be hesitant.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Since a multiverse is required for eternal progression then I think we shouldn't assume any reference is necessarily to worlds in this universe. There was an interesting theory pushed by Orson Hyde and others that there were twelve worlds and Jesus was savior for all of them. According to this theory (still found in folk theology) only our world was wicked enough to kill Jesus.

Back to your original topic though, there are still so many unknowns in predictions about intelligent life in the universe that I wouldn't rest too much on them. It's an interesting topic going back to Fermi as I recall. There's a recent book on the subject using the latest data, Light of the Stars. I've not read the book although there was an interesting podcast with the author a few months back. At this stage of knowledge I wouldn't put too much credence in calculations of intelligent life.

Just for the sake of my own sanity and clarification in the unlikely case that people like me might actually wonder how I could agree with this, mixing science with religion, let me clarify.

The paradigm that multiple universes exist is more compatible with the paradigm that we can be exalted to our own "universe" than other paradigms, for those that need to show compatibility between science and religion including the belief that religious truth is the same as scientific truth.  Of course I do not hold that position.

Phew.  I feel better.  Thanks for sort of listening. 

 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Since a multiverse is required for eternal progression then I think we shouldn't assume any reference is necessarily to worlds in this universe. There was an interesting theory pushed by Orson Hyde and others that there were twelve worlds and Jesus was savior for all of them. According to this theory (still found in folk theology) only our world was wicked enough to kill Jesus.

 

 

Unfortunately, the other 11 worlds fell to the Cylons.

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Given that faith is one of the requisite conditions for our mortal probation to meet its primary intended purposes, I do not see a situation where we'll learn of and communicate with extra-terrestrial intelligent life.

I do believe that our galaxy is chalk full of world inhabited by the sons and daughters of various Adams and Eves and that they very probably look very much like this planet's humans. The scientific probability of that occurring is so remote that finding another intelligent civilization and communication enough with them to learn what they are like, that they believe in heavenly parents and such... that would make it much harder, in my opinion, for atheism or even agnosticism to persist. I could be wrong, but I'm going all in on the bet that we won't find and communicate with our fellow siblings on other worlds. Maybe during he Millennium, but even then I would be hesitant.

That works for me too!

There are  so many ways to reconcile our beliefs about religion with our beliefs about science that I seldom get into these threads- but I think this is a great illustration that we have no problem in fact RECONCILING these beliefs IF we need to do so.

For the church the main problem reconciling what are perceived as "historical" issues with their religious counterparts can easily be reconciled- IN my opinion- with the admission that prophets are fallible human beings that occasionally get flashes of insight from God- for others like us willing to learn and accept those flashes of insight as "correct"

How or why they get these insights from God is unknowable so why worry about it?

The important thing is to realize that if Joseph really did somethings wrong in his life, that has no bearing on what he did right.

That stuff is between him and God.

So yes we get to pick and choose what paradigm advances us in an Alma 32 sense- that grows a "tree" of belief that creates "sweet fruit" in our lives, and each of us get to create our own universe in this way from the "matter unorganized" of all these paradigms floating around.

This paradigm of paradigms  makes diverse thought and the internet- not our enemy but our friend!

There is just more "matter unorganized" out there from which to choose.  Sometimes we need bricks and sometimes we need silly putty to put it all together.

The internet is the Walmart of available paradigms.  It's all in one place from the trash cans to the comforters, the food and the book section. 

Oh yeah and in some places the rifles too. 

 

 

 

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

It's also possibly that we're the first within listening distance to have developed any advanced technology. There could be a myriad of other planets in range that are still in their own stone age, or that haven't evolved any life that is even close to the intelligence of homo sapiens.

Yes, I like that one.  It means that we don't have to worry about any of our close neighbors invading us!  We can invade them first!

I recall seeing the bumper sticker: 

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I just read a book that talked about how impossible it would be for us to detect other life using radio waves (or for them to detect us).  I don't own the book but I'll try to go back and look at it again so that I can better explain wha the book said.  

Essentially for us to catch radio waves from space (put there by an alien source) they would have to be beaming them directly at us, closely enough that the signal would still be strong enough for us to detect, and we would have to be pointing our equipment directly at the source at the exact same time it was coming our way.

 

Yes, the inverse-square-law really makes the unintended receipt of radio transmissions very problematic and unlikely.  

Now, consider the Voyager space probes, which are still transmitting data from (now) outside the solar system.  The transmissions are generated from very directional antennas, as you describe, and the amazing this is that we can still "hear" them.  If the antennas had been omnidirectional (meaning, just a rod-shape like on the end of a walkie-talkie), we'd probably have lost their signals years ago.  Their transmission power is similar to that of a standard household light bulb, but we can still pick them up from 13 billion miles away!  Amazing!  But receivers off-axis from the directional antenna would not be able to hear them at all.  

I may try to calculate the signal strength at earth of a very high power omnidirectional radio signal transmitting from the vicinity of Alpha Centauri (the star system closest to us), and see if its signal strength would be more than Voyager's.  I'm not sure how to do the calculation, actually, but it sounds like an interesting problem!

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well as a ham operator that sounds pretty right. On one hand.

But usually "line of sight" is all that's required. But I ain't no expert or nothin

Unquestionably you get a stronger signal by aiming it at one source with a special antenna.

WA7MC here!

Line of sight is more important as the frequency increases.  Lower frequencies are more subject to bending around obstructions.  This is why the 2 meter band can normally only be used for local communications, as the curvature of the earth puts distant antennas within the radio shadow of the transmitting antenna.  And partly why one can use the 20 and 40 meter bands for talking to stations on the other side of the earth. I remember taking my cub scouts to visit a ham (W3OZ) who had some pretty impressive antennas and the legal maximum power amplifier to talk on.  He called up a station in Argentina (from Washington state) and had a chat with the operator there.  The cubs were really impressed.  This was something like 20 years ago now.  W3OZ is still going strong, but he's really "up there" in age these days.

GHz signals (like the Voyager probes use) are the kind that can cut through ionization and keep on going.  That's why the SETI people are looking at signals in those higher frequency bands.  What @bluebell says is correct, however, those signals are going to originate from highly directional antennas that are definitely NOT looking our way.  That's an important reason to believe that SETI is a waste of time.  But it's probably still fun to mess with -- and keeps people off the streets and out of mischief.  Maybe.

One of my atheist friends participated in SETI @ home where he lends his unused processing power for the Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence.  He chuckled when I told him that I communicated with an ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence practically every day!

Edited September 17, 2018 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Just for the sake of my own sanity and clarification in the unlikely case that people like me might actually wonder how I could agree with this, mixing science with religion, let me clarify.

The paradigm that multiple universes exist is more compatible with the paradigm that we can be exalted to our own "universe" than other paradigms, for those that need to show compatibility between science and religion including the belief that religious truth is the same as scientific truth.  Of course I do not hold that position.

Phew.  I feel better.  Thanks for sort of listening. 

 

That's the conclusion I have come to, as well.

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I would like to see a scientific report on the utility of radio waves in detecting other civilizations in our galaxy.  I understand that they are not that useful or detectable, and you seem to understand that propinquity is an issue.  What does SETI look for, specifically?

I'm pretty sure such research has been done.  Apparently someone thinks they might be able to hear something of use.  My opinion is that they aren't going to hear anything -- for a few different reasons, some of which I have given here in this thread.  But I still think there are many of Father's children who have gone through / who are going through / who will go through their own mortal probations in this universe that we will be unable to hear from.

SETI is primarily looking for data signals.  I'm pretty sure nobody is listening for music -- but who knows?  The most efficient use of high frequency in the gigahertz range is in sending "bits", i.e. digital information.  What SETI is looking for is patterns / non-random sequences that indicate intelligent origins.  If you consider the Wow! signal that I referenced in the OP, you will get the idea.  See the article in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal

[filovirus]

It is my understanding that SETI can indeed focus on stars within our galaxy and perceive if any radio signals are originating from distant stars. But let's take for example our own galaxy. Near the supermassive black hole in the center, the stars are too clustered. It is hypothesized that there is too much ionizing radiation for any life to grow, except for extremophile bacteria that may be able survive. But no multicellular organisms can survive. This would hold true for all cluster galaxies as well. In fact, most scientists believe that only spiral galaxies can reliably host life. And only stars on the outside of a spiral arm can host life.

The problem with Alpha Centari is that the star is too small. This would make the habitable zone small; making a slim chance that a planet would reside there. However, a planet has been found to circle Alpha Centari which may be in the habitable zone that is between 1-2 times larger than earth. Most likely the planet is tidally locked to the star because of it's proximity. This would mean that there probably are no plate tech-tonics, which is necessary for evolution and speciation. This also means that no mountains, and if water is on the planet, it most likely covers the entire planet. Single celled organisms may grow, but unlikely anything past that as there is no stimulus for adaptation. Fire is a necessity for advanced civilizations. A water world would not be able to produce fire, as least no usable fire. So even if there is intelligent life, such as octopi and dolphins, they will never be able to harness fire, much less eventually produce electronics. Life would also need to deal with the extra gravity on a super earth planet like that found at Alpha Centari. A higher gravity probably means more cloud cover. They may not even be able to see their own star, much less space. Also, with more gravity, they probably couldn't ever leave their own planet. We have enough trouble creating enough lift to get out of Earth's gavity.

Here is a link to the "rare earth" hypothesis: https://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw102.html

Here is a link to an enlightening book on life in the universe: https://www.amazon.com/Rare-Earth-Complex-Uncommon-Universe/dp/0387952896

[mfbukowski]

56 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

WA7MC here!

Line of sight is more important as the frequency increases.  Lower frequencies are more subject to bending around obstructions.  This is why the 2 meter band can normally only be used for local communications, as the curvature of the earth puts distant antennas within the radio shadow of the transmitting antenna.  And partly why one can use the 20 and 40 meter bands for talking to stations on the other side of the earth. I remember taking my cub scouts to visit a ham (W3OZ) who had some pretty impressive antennas and the legal maximum power amplifier to talk on.  He called up a station in Argentina (from Washington state) and had a chat with the operator there.  The cubs were really impressed.  This was something like 20 years ago now.  W3OZ is still going strong, but he's really "up there" in age these days.

GHz signals (like the Voyager probes use) are the kind that can cut through ionization and keep on going.  That's why the SETI people are looking at signals in those higher frequency bands.  What @bluebell says is correct, however, those signals are going to originate from highly directional antennas that are definitely NOT looking our way.  That's an important reason to believe that SETI is a waste of time.  But it's probably still fun to mess with -- and keeps people off the streets and out of mischief.  Maybe.

One of my atheist friends participated in SETI @ home where he lends his unused processing power for the Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence.  He chuckled when I told him that I communicated with an ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence practically every day!

Yes but one must have a carefully tuned Biophysical Telepathic Multichannel Neural Network Interfaced Receiver to do that that costs 1/10 of your income. Too expensive for most, and getting that puppy tuned and continually online is another big obstacle.

But when the dang thing works, it's great!

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by mfbukowski

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

WA7MC here!

Line of sight is more important as the frequency increases.  Lower frequencies are more subject to bending around obstructions.  This is why the 2 meter band can normally only be used for local communications, as the curvature of the earth puts distant antennas within the radio shadow of the transmitting antenna.  And partly why one can use the 20 and 40 meter bands for talking to stations on the other side of the earth. I remember taking my cub scouts to visit a ham (W3OZ) who had some pretty impressive antennas and the legal maximum power amplifier to talk on.  He called up a station in Argentina (from Washington state) and had a chat with the operator there.  The cubs were really impressed.  This was something like 20 years ago now.  W3OZ is still going strong, but he's really "up there" in age these days.

GHz signals (like the Voyager probes use) are the kind that can cut through ionization and keep on going.  That's why the SETI people are looking at signals in those higher frequency bands.  What @bluebell says is correct, however, those signals are going to originate from highly directional antennas that are definitely NOT looking our way.  That's an important reason to believe that SETI is a waste of time.  But it's probably still fun to mess with -- and keeps people off the streets and out of mischief.  Maybe.

One of my atheist friends participated in SETI @ home where he lends his unused processing power for the Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence.  He chuckled when I told him that I communicated with an ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence practically every day!

KI6INT 

[mrmarklin]

15 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Which observatory is that?  Would this be the Allen Telescope Array at the Hat Creek Radio Observatory?

Yes.  But there’s a lot more than just telescopes. 

[strappinglad]

1. Having spent the weekend driving 12 hours on very busy freeways, I conclude that there is WAY too much intelligent life on THIS planet for my liking.

2. Having spent the weekend driving 12 hours on very busy freeways, I conclude that ' intelligent life ' is highly variable.

3. I'm convinced that there are " others" around who are much more advanced than we are.

4. I think " the prime directive " governs in the universe.

5. Wouldn't it be hilarious if the first signal discovered is the ET equivalent of an ' I Love Lucy ' show?

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, filovirus said:

It is my understanding that SETI can indeed focus on stars within our galaxy and perceive if any radio signals are originating from distant stars.

SETI is merely the name of the effort or the organization pursuing it, the SETI Institute.  It's not a particular device, although there is one radio telescope array owned by the SETI Institute, the Allen Telescope Array at the Hat Creek Radio Observatory.  SETI work is carried on in many locations on the earth, anywhere there is a decent radio telescope.  In fact, radio telescopes are constantly looking at radio sources (stars, nebulae, galaxies, etc) for the purpose of scientific research.  The data from these observations are frequently shared with the SETI network -- which actually consists of computers (including home computers) that analyze the received signals looking for LGM.

And every star and some planets (e.g. Jupiter) emit radio signals.  It's just a question of whether the signals are from natural processes or artificial.  So far, no radio source has been shown to be artificial, or been shown to have produced artificial signals.

Quote

But let's take for example our own galaxy. Near the supermassive black hole in the center, the stars are too clustered. It is hypothesized that there is too much ionizing radiation for any life to grow, except for extremophile bacteria that may be able survive. But no multicellular organisms can survive. This would hold true for all cluster galaxies as well. In fact, most scientists believe that only spiral galaxies can reliably host life. And only stars on the outside of a spiral arm can host life.

That's interesting, because I hadn't heard this, that only stars on the outside of a spiral arm can host life.  You have a reference?  I am aware that the region of space around our galaxy's central black hole is a very chaotic and deadly space.

Quote

The problem with Alpha Centari is that the star is too small. This would make the habitable zone small; making a slim chance that a planet would reside there. However, a planet has been found to circle Alpha Centari which may be in the habitable zone that is between 1-2 times larger than earth. Most likely the planet is tidally locked to the star because of it's proximity. This would mean that there probably are no plate tech-tonics, which is necessary for evolution and speciation. This also means that no mountains, and if water is on the planet, it most likely covers the entire planet. Single celled organisms may grow, but unlikely anything past that as there is no stimulus for adaptation. Fire is a necessity for advanced civilizations. A water world would not be able to produce fire, as least no usable fire. So even if there is intelligent life, such as octopi and dolphins, they will never be able to harness fire, much less eventually produce electronics. Life would also need to deal with the extra gravity on a super earth planet like that found at Alpha Centari. A higher gravity probably means more cloud cover. They may not even be able to see their own star, much less space. Also, with more gravity, they probably couldn't ever leave their own planet. We have enough trouble creating enough lift to get out of Earth's gavity.

I think you are confusing Alpha Centauri with Proxima Centauri (also known as Alpha Centauri C).  The Alpha Centauri star system actually consists of three stars, two of which, A and B, are gravitationally bound to each other (i.e. a double or binary star system), and C, which until 2017 was not certainly known to be gravitationally bound to the other two, but now has been confirmed to be.  And you're right about Proxima Centauri, currently the closest star to the Sun. The habitability zone is too close to the star and the planet known to be there is tidally locked to its star. And then, too, α Cen C is a bit of a flare star and during its lifetime has probably stripped any vestiges of an atmosphere away from the planet.  The other two stars, α Cen A and α Cen B, could very well have a planet or planets within their respective habitability zones; the stars are far enough apart that they could each host one or more habitable planets. And they are both of types that could easily provide good illumination to habitable planets. α Cen B has been shown to have one planet, orbiting closer to its sun than Mercury does to ours.  It is considered possible that both stars could have other planets.   The Wikipedia article on Alpha Centauri is quite fascinating.  

By the way, the Alpha Centauri system is not known to have a super-earth planet.

Quote

Here is a link to the "rare earth" hypothesis: https://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw102.html

Here is a link to an enlightening book on life in the universe: https://www.amazon.com/Rare-Earth-Complex-Uncommon-Universe/dp/0387952896

Thanks for these!

Edited September 18, 2018 by Stargazer

[filovirus]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 

By the way, the Alpha Centauri system is not known to have a super-earth planet.

Thanks for these!

Sorry, yes you are correct. I meant Proxima Centari which hosts the planet Proxima Centari b which may be in the habitable zone and is considered a super earth because it is 1.3 times the size of earth.

And I meant to say that conditions are better suited for life in a spiral arm, but near the outer part of a spiral arm, not outside of the spiral arm.

[filovirus]

13 hours ago, strappinglad said:

3. I'm convinced that there are " others" around who are much more advanced than we are.

And that leads to the Fermi Paradox. A much more advance alien race would probably be harnessing the power of stars and be able to colonize the galaxy. But we see no sign of this. To do this they would create a Dyson Sphere or Dyson Swarm. We haven't found anything close to resembling this. The closest we came to finding one was a few years back around the "Tabby" star. Turned out is was a dust cloud dimming the light of the star and not an alien megastructure.

[Stargazer]

42 minutes ago, filovirus said:

And that leads to the Fermi Paradox. A much more advance alien race would probably be harnessing the power of stars and be able to colonize the galaxy. But we see no sign of this. To do this they would create a Dyson Sphere or Dyson Swarm. We haven't found anything close to resembling this. The closest we came to finding one was a few years back around the "Tabby" star. Turned out is was a dust cloud dimming the light of the star and not an alien megastructure.

Which was kind of disappointing, imho!

[Anakin7]

On September 17, 2018 at 2:39 AM, Stargazer said:

No, it was the McConaughey character.  I thought her father in the film (played by David Morse) might have said it as well.

 

    I stand corrected, thank you.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, filovirus said:

And that leads to the Fermi Paradox. A much more advance alien race would probably be harnessing the power of stars and be able to colonize the galaxy. But we see no sign of this. To do this they would create a Dyson Sphere or Dyson Swarm.

That seems a pretty dubious assumption though - particularly the Dyson Sphere which is unstable.

[strappinglad]

I am reminded of a saying which I will paraphrase. " Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we CAN imagine"

In other words, when it comes to the universe, we are only limited by our imagination. That is a sword that cuts both ways.

[Anakin7]

    I remember a few years ago [ I may be off a little on this but... ] I was talking with a friend of mine in my ward who used to work for Jet Propulsion Laboratories  in Pasadena Calif and has rubbed shoulders with scientist from near and abroad [My friend is  a good standing Priesthood and Temple Recommend holder member and is mostly serious but does have a humorous side as well ] and he told me that he was invited a # of years ago to attend a  meeting with some top scientists from around the country and during the lecture the speaker spoke of us having ION engines. He was asked do we really have those and are we talking Warp Drive ?, the answer was in the affirmative and not known by many. He also told me he was invited with a # of individuals [ I do not remember the location where he told he he was ] and he told me that he has seen "The Ship" by that he meant not of this world and that he had the privilege to see one of its inhabitants [ not alive ]. He said he looked like us but different. When asked if the Government knew about this he wait The President is not told everything. You can believe this or not but my friend told me that Beings who are centuries/thousands/millions of years ahead of us would know how to traverse time/space/matter in a reasonably short period of time. Worlds without number has he created and its inhabitants are his begotten sons and daughters. Side note A # of years ago my fellow LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian Brother In Christ Jesus David Pyle sat in a anti LDS meeting here in Southern Calif and sat next to, across from one not of this world. That is another event for another time. May True Grace Be with all of you and those you Love.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

That seems a pretty dubious assumption though - particularly the Dyson Sphere which is unstable.

Dyson didn't mean a rigid shell. He proposed a system of orbiting structures (which he referred to initially as a shell) designed to intercept and collect all energy produced by the Sun. 

[pogi]

Where are all the aliens?

Hasn't this guy ever heard of Xenu? 

If you want to find the aliens you have to look inward, not outward!