Forget S.E.T.I. - We're the only ones here!

[Stargazer]

I don't necessarily agree with this gentleman's point of view, but thought it was an interesting seed for discussion.  This relates to LDS matters because there are scriptures that suggest that we are NOT the only ones here (in this Universe).  As for me, I've got a numerical comprehension of the size of the visible Universe (the actual Universe is certainly far larger), and I find it well nigh impossible to imagine that there aren't a very large number of civilizations currently active out there, as well as an even larger number that have been and gone, and are yet to come.  

From P of GP, Moses 1:35:

For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

If we were the only civilization in this galaxy, to quote Matthew McConaughey's character in Contact, "It would be an awful waste of space."

So how do you square the lack of detection of extraterrestrial radio signals with the idea that LDS scriptures agree that there are many civilizations out there and that it seems that there ought to be plenty of civilizations out there within radio range of our most sensitive radio receivers?  By the way, I don't regard that WOW! signal that @6EQUJ5 features on his profile as a likely true ET transmission. I think it was a random transient signal.  Sorry 6EQUJ5!

 

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

I don't necessarily agree with this gentleman's point of view, but thought it was an interesting seed for discussion.  This relates to LDS matters because there are scriptures that suggest that we are NOT the only ones here (in this Universe).  As for me, I've got a numerical comprehension of the size of the visible Universe (the actual Universe is certainly far larger), and I find it well nigh impossible to imagine that there aren't a very large number of civilizations currently active out there, as well as an even larger number that have been and gone, and are yet to come.  

From P of GP, Moses 1:35:

For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

If we were the only civilization in this galaxy, to quote Matthew McConaughey's character in Contact, "It would be an awful waste of space."

So how do you square the lack of detection of extraterrestrial radio signals with the idea that LDS scriptures agree that there are many civilizations out there and that it seems that there ought to be plenty of civilizations out there within radio range of our most sensitive radio receivers?  By the way, I don't regard that WOW! signal that @6EQUJ5 features on his profile as a likely true ET transmission. I think it was a random transient signal.  Sorry 6EQUJ5!

 

We are the only ones HERE because everyone else is THERE.

Proving negatives is a hazardous process.

[Stargazer]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We are the only ones HERE because everyone else is THERE.

Proving negatives is a hazardous process.

Maybe so, but I wasn't using HERE in the localized sense, but in the universal sense!

[katherine the great]

Why on earth (no pun intended) do people assume that other intelligent life uses radio waves to communicate? 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Maybe so, but I wasn't using HERE in the localized sense, but in the universal sense!

Yes. I know.

My point was that one Man's "universal" may be one Org's "nearby" universe, nextdoor.

Besides do people all exist in the same "universe " ? I know a few right here who do not live in "my world " at all.

And that still makes it no easier to prove a negative.

Absolute statements drive me absolutely bonkers.

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Maidservant]

The other people aren't necessarily within this particular program.  I understand our world to be a media presentation.  So 'everyone else' isn't in the 'movie' right now.  Or they are in another movie.  We wouldn't arrive at them by going through the stars; we would arrive at them by finishing the movie and/or obtaining the capacity to see outside of the presentation at the same as participating in the presentation (not sure that's possible except in the sense that everything/anything is--possible).  It's how I think of it right now, but I would be really excited to get communication from another planet showing otherwise!

[Glenn101]

The gentleman is talking probabilities. But according to probabilities, we should not be here at all. The existence of this universe violates the known laws of physics as to the formation of matter and antimatter according to the scientists at Cern. Lee Smolin has decided that we need an infinite number of universes to have a chance of being here. So distressing to understand that I may not be anything but a figment of my imagination or ........

Glenn

[carbon dioxide]

Our planet has had intelligent life on it for thousands of years BUT we have only sent signals out into space for about 100 years.  If a civilization on a world 1000 light years away looking for signals from our solar system of life, they will still have to wait another 900 or so earth years to get evidence that we are here.   Until then, they may just conclude that there no life to be found in our solar system.

Edited September 17, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[mrmarklin]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't necessarily agree with this gentleman's point of view, but thought it was an interesting seed for discussion.  This relates to LDS matters because there are scriptures that suggest that we are NOT the only ones here (in this Universe).  As for me, I've got a numerical comprehension of the size of the visible Universe (the actual Universe is certainly far larger), and I find it well nigh impossible to imagine that there aren't a very large number of civilizations currently active out there, as well as an even larger number that have been and gone, and are yet to come.  

From P of GP, Moses 1:35:

For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

If we were the only civilization in this galaxy, to quote Matthew McConaughey's character in Contact, "It would be an awful waste of space."

So how do you square the lack of detection of extraterrestrial radio signals with the idea that LDS scriptures agree that there are many civilizations out there and that it seems that there ought to be plenty of civilizations out there within radio range of our most sensitive radio receivers?  By the way, I don't regard that WOW! signal that @6EQUJ5 features on his profile as a likely true ET transmission. I think it was a random transient signal.  Sorry 6EQUJ5!

 

I live near the SETI probe and observatory here in the US and the search continues with constantly improving technology. 

[Anakin7]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't necessarily agree with this gentleman's point of view, but thought it was an interesting seed for discussion.  This relates to LDS matters because there are scriptures that suggest that we are NOT the only ones here (in this Universe).  As for me, I've got a numerical comprehension of the size of the visible Universe (the actual Universe is certainly far larger), and I find it well nigh impossible to imagine that there aren't a very large number of civilizations currently active out there, as well as an even larger number that have been and gone, and are yet to come.  

From P of GP, Moses 1:35:

For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

If we were the only civilization in this galaxy, to quote Matthew McConaughey's character in Contact, "It would be an awful waste of space."

So how do you square the lack of detection of extraterrestrial radio signals with the idea that LDS scriptures agree that there are many civilizations out there and that it seems that there ought to be plenty of civilizations out there within radio range of our most sensitive radio receivers?  By the way, I don't regard that WOW! signal that @6EQUJ5 features on his profile as a likely true ET transmission. I think it was a random transient signal.  Sorry 6EQUJ5!

 

    I thought the quote " it would be an awful wast of space" was from Jodi Foster ?.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Maybe so, but I wasn't using HERE in the localized sense, but in the universal sense!

Maybe Mark is referring to THERE as heaven qua kingdoms of glory, where primitive radio transmissions are otiose.  That may take care of the Fermi Paradox.

However, see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBf7uAxk6ds. 

 

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes. I know.

Yes, I knew you knew that.  I just had to say it.

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

My point was that one Man's "universal" may be one Org's "nearby" universe, nextdoor.

Well, relativity and all that.

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Besides do people all exist in the same "universe " ? I know a few right here who do not live in "my world " at all.

I noticed this, too.

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And that still makes it no easier to prove a negative.

I wonder if God can prove a negative?  I've never considered that before.  If not even God can prove a negative, then this is a limitation on both omniscience and omnipotence!

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Absolute statements drive me absolutely bonkers.

 

That reminds me of something someone remembered his professor saying during class.  "There are no absolutes!" He stated. Then with a look of dismay, he followed this up with "Good heavens, I've just uttered an absolute!"

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    I thought the quote " it would be an awful wast of space" was from Jodi Foster ?.

 

No, it was the McConaughey character.  I thought her father in the film (played by David Morse) might have said it as well.

 

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I live near the SETI probe and observatory here in the US and the search continues with constantly improving technology. 

Which observatory is that?  Would this be the Allen Telescope Array at the Hat Creek Radio Observatory?

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Maidservant said:

The other people aren't necessarily within this particular program.  I understand our world to be a media presentation.  So 'everyone else' isn't in the 'movie' right now.  Or they are in another movie.  We wouldn't arrive at them by going through the stars; we would arrive at them by finishing the movie and/or obtaining the capacity to see outside of the presentation at the same as participating in the presentation (not sure that's possible except in the sense that everything/anything is--possible).  It's how I think of it right now, but I would be really excited to get communication from another planet showing otherwise!

I've considered that as well.  This is something I call The Matrix Postulate.  It's like we're in The Matrix movie, but with a much better computer controlling it all.

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Why on earth (no pun intended) do people assume that other intelligent life uses radio waves to communicate? 

Unless they use telepathy (which doesn't seem to exist), what else would they use?  At least in the beginning.   

Radio is extremely basic.  Once humans discovered the usefulness of electricity, it was but a short while before radio waves were discovered.  It is extremely basic engineering, and it is one of the very first technological principles to be discovered and put to use.  I can't imagine that any other civilization wouldn't use radio.

The thing is, our civilization used very powerful radio transmitters in the beginning when great range was desired because our receivers were not particularly sensitive.  I remember the days when the US broadcast power legal maximum was 50 kilowatts, that one "border blaster" station in Mexico, XERF in Ciudad Acuña, would put out 250 kilowatts, could be heard all over North America, and even into Europe and the Soviet Union at night.  Anyone here remember "Wolfman Jack"?  He got his start on XERF in the 1960s, and I can remember my parents listening to his station driving from place to place when we were on one of our long-distance automobile vacations.  It is said that someone driving from New York to California could hear that station all the way across -- although late at night it would sell airtime to US evangelists, making it less useful for music lovers!  XERF is still on the air these days, but not at 250KW -- "only" 100KW.  Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that for a short time humans have been blasting high power radio waves into the ether.  I suppose another civilization could use blasts of light, instead of radio waves, but unless their bodily senses couldn't detect light, it would be very disrupting.

The whole point of SETI is the perfectly valid assumption that advanced civilizations would use radio to communicate over long distances.  And, like us, at some point they may be blasting out radio waves in order to enable their people to hear music and news.  But I'm thinking that SETI is looking for digital transmissions, not analog, necessarily.  So the "Wolfman Jack" of Tau Ceti might be sendin' out the tunes, but are we listening on the right frequency and transmission mode to hear him?  I don't know.

If you have any alternatives to radio for long-distance communication I'd be interested to hear about them, however!

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Our planet has had intelligent life on it for thousands of years BUT we have only sent signals out into space for about 100 years.  If a civilization on a world 1000 light years away looking for signals from our solar system of life, they will still have to wait another 900 or so earth years to get evidence that we are here.   Until then, they may just conclude that there no life to be found in our solar system.

Yes, but if intelligent life is as prevalent as some have postulated, we should eventually receive signals from some distance away that indicate a civilization that used radio waves existed at some time in the past.  It's not just US, in other words.  A multiplicity of worlds with intelligent and technological life should provide at least one example of radio communication.

On the other hand, if those worlds are places where Heavenly Father has placed His children, it may very well be the case that about 150 years after their first transmissions they have an end of their technological era when their Millenniums begin.  But wouldn't they still continue to use radio for broadcast communications afterwards?  Until alternative techniques began to be used, it seems likely that they would. 

But our civilization is actually reducing the amount of power we're broadcasting with, over time.  Virtually everyone in the world these days seems to be carrying radio transceivers that operate only with a few milliwatts -- our Bluetooth devices flood the aether around us with radio signals, but they have even less power.  As our civilization advances, we undertake to use less and less power (for the cost savings if nothing else), or use copper wire and light pipes (fiber), which do not broadcast.  It may be that as we progress technologically we will eventually go radio-silent -- at least as far as leaking radio transmissions capable of being heard over light-years of distance is concerned.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Unless they use telepathy (which doesn't seem to exist), what else would they use?  At least in the beginning.   

Radio is extremely basic.  Once humans discovered the usefulness of electricity, it was but a short while before radio waves were discovered.  It is extremely basic engineering, and it is one of the very first technological principles to be discovered and put to use.  I can't imagine that any other civilization wouldn't use radio.

The thing is, our civilization used very powerful radio transmitters in the beginning when great range was desired because our receivers were not particularly sensitive.  ..............................

The whole point of SETI is the perfectly valid assumption that advanced civilizations would use radio to communicate over long distances.  .....................

If you have any alternatives to radio for long-distance communication I'd be interested to hear about them, however!

The most advanced humans (or other sentient beings) are not necessarily those whom you saddle with antiquated radio transmissions.  In a short while, all us humans will be using much better, and faster communication methods, perhaps as early as the Millennium, and certainly in kingdoms of glory.

If,  however, we only allow for purely non-spiritual communication techniques, I can't imagine us being tied to the old methods for very long.  I expect us to harness quantum entanglement modes of communication -- instant communication across vast reaches of space.

[Stargazer]

37 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The most advanced humans (or other sentient beings) are not necessarily those whom you saddle with antiquated radio transmissions.  In a short while, all us humans will be using much better, and faster communication methods, perhaps as early as the Millennium, and certainly in kingdoms of glory.

If,  however, we only allow for purely non-spiritual communication techniques, I can't imagine us being tied to the old methods for very long.  I expect us to harness quantum entanglement modes of communication -- instant communication across vast reaches of space.

I'm not saddling anyone with anything! 🙂 I'm saying that radio is a natural and almost inevitable stage in technological progress.  And if it is superseded by something better, any technological civilization will, if only for a relatively short time, use radio.  And if they are close enough to our solar system, perhaps we could detect their signals.

[filovirus]

Many reasons why we haven't found signs of "intelligent life". The Rare Earth hypothesis. The Great Filters hypothesis. By just these two hypothesis, we would only expect maybe 1 advanced civilization or less per galaxy. Finding another civilization in the Milky Way or even Andromeda is probably impossible because of the scarcity of intelligent life.

Faster than light travel is not obtainable. The human race will probably never be able to colonize outside of our solar system because space is too vast.  The same could be said of alien life as well in their solar systems.

[Gray]

It's also possibly that we're the first within listening distance to have developed any advanced technology. There could be a myriad of other planets in range that are still in their own stone age, or that haven't evolved any life that is even close to the intelligence of homo sapiens.

[bluebell]

I just read a book that talked about how impossible it would be for us to detect other life using radio waves (or for them to detect us).  I don't own the book but I'll try to go back and look at it again so that I can better explain wha the book said.  

Essentially for us to catch radio waves from space (put there by an alien source) they would have to be beaming them directly at us, closely enough that the signal would still be strong enough for us to detect, and we would have to be pointing our equipment directly at the source at the exact same time it was coming our way.

 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, I knew you knew that.  I just had to say it.

Well, relativity and all that.

I noticed this, too.

I wonder if God can prove a negative?  I've never considered that before.  If not even God can prove a negative, then this is a limitation on both omniscience and omnipotence!

That reminds me of something someone remembered his professor saying during class.  "There are no absolutes!" He stated. Then with a look of dismay, he followed this up with "Good heavens, I've just uttered an absolute!"

Logical laws are grammatical usually true "by definition". Law of language.

A = A because we say so,by definition, but in induction, how do we know that what is "represented" by A1 is "actually" the "same" as A2? 

And so as you say I live in my different world. 😝😉

[clarkgoble]

19 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't necessarily agree with this gentleman's point of view, but thought it was an interesting seed for discussion.  This relates to LDS matters because there are scriptures that suggest that we are NOT the only ones here (in this Universe).

Since a multiverse is required for eternal progression then I think we shouldn't assume any reference is necessarily to worlds in this universe. There was an interesting theory pushed by Orson Hyde and others that there were twelve worlds and Jesus was savior for all of them. According to this theory (still found in folk theology) only our world was wicked enough to kill Jesus.

Back to your original topic though, there are still so many unknowns in predictions about intelligent life in the universe that I wouldn't rest too much on them. It's an interesting topic going back to Fermi as I recall. There's a recent book on the subject using the latest data, Light of the Stars. I've not read the book although there was an interesting podcast with the author a few months back. At this stage of knowledge I wouldn't put too much credence in calculations of intelligent life.

Edited September 17, 2018 by clarkgoble

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I just read a book that talked about how impossible it would be for us to detect other life using radio waves (or for them to detect us).  I don't own the book but I'll try to go back and look at it again so that I can better explain wha the book said.  

Essentially for us to catch radio waves from space (put there by an alien source) they would have to be beaming them directly at us, closely enough that the signal would still be strong enough for us to detect, and we would have to be pointing our equipment directly at the source at the exact same time it was coming our way.

 

Well as a ham operator that sounds pretty right. On one hand.

But usually "line of sight" is all that's required. But I ain't no expert or nothin

Unquestionably you get a stronger signal by aiming it at one source with a special antenna.