Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I can only his family has or would want to get a restraining order or something like that-heck I would. Now they have video evidence to support their reason to get it

Hadn’t thought of that, but you are right. I would definitely be going there if I was him or family. 

[Abulafia]

10 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I just think this is totally inappropriate. Does Bishop deserve this? Probably. Do his children and grandchildren deserve this? No. Do all the families in his ward deserve this? No. I'm sure she is hurt and suffering but visiting her pain on a bunch of people who have nothing to do with his actions is just bizarre. The appropriate audience for her are the people who have joined her circle and who are interested in her experience. These people just wanted to be at church and worship in peace. I hope she will get the help she needs to cope with  her pain in a productive and healing way. I can't think of a single counselor who would recommend this method.

Well, I partly agree with you, (people wanting to be at church and worship in peace) but actually, if any church or organisation has a paedophile or sexual predator in it's midst, then I would personally want to know. 

 

If any organisation has historically given more protections and sympathies to paedophiles and sexual abusers, than it does to someone trying to make the church a safer place, then I would want to know.

 

McKenna is being interviewed for NBC, so my fb account tells me this morning. Her actions have garnered media attention and support. In that sense her actions have been a blazing success.

 

I think rather than going into defensive position, the church leadership should be asking what they can do to improve policies and cultural attitudes. They haven't done enough imho. The current policies, teachings, and procedures aren't enough either for victim or perpetrator.

 

 

 

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Well, I partly agree with you [katherine the great], (people wanting to be at church and worship in peace) but actually, if any church or organisation has a paedophile or sexual predator in it's midst, then I would personally want to know.

And you think fast and testimony meeting is the appropriate venue for that kind of information sharing to take place? 

 

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If any organisation has historically given more protections and sympathies to paedophiles and sexual abusers, than it does to someone trying to make the church a safer place, then I would want to know.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to make the Church a safer place.

I do, however, have a problem with people coming into our sanctuaries and disrupting our religious services. 

 

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McKenna is being interviewed for NBC, so my fb account tells me this morning. Her actions have garnered media attention and support. In that sense her actions have been a blazing success.

Let's be honest, the media attention and any "support" she has garnered are ephemeral.

Mike Norton doesn't care about getting McKenna real help. If he did he would be taking her to see a counselor rather than taking her to disrupt religious services. 

Once the spotlight fades, Norton et. all will move onto something else, and she will be the same troubled woman she is today.

I think that's really sad, because I believe she needs real help.

 

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I think rather than going into defensive position, the church leadership should be asking what they can do to improve policies and cultural attitudes. They haven't done enough imho. The current policies, teachings, and procedures aren't enough either for victim or perpetrator.

The church's policies with respect to these kinds of situations have improved significantly over the last 30 years. I'm not certain what would qualify as being "enough" for your liking, but in my opinion I think the church today does a pretty good job with these kinds of situations. 

 

 

[Abulafia]

4 minutes ago, Amulek said:

1.And you think fast and testimony meeting is the appropriate venue for that kind of information sharing to take place? 

 

2.I don't have a problem with people wanting to make the Church a safer place.

3.I do, however, have a problem with people coming into our sanctuaries and disrupting our religious services. 

 

4.Let's be honest, the media attention and any "support" she has garnered are ephemeral.

5.Mike Norton doesn't care about getting McKenna real help. If he did he would be taking her to see a counselor rather than taking her to disrupt religious services. 

6.Once the spotlight fades, Norton et. all will move onto something else, and she will be the same troubled woman she is today.

7.I think that's really sad, because I believe she needs real help.

 

8.The church's policies with respect to these kinds of situations have improved significantly over the last 30 years. I'm not certain what would qualify as being "enough" for your liking, but in my opinion I think the church today does a pretty good job with these kinds of situations. 

 

 

1. Not normally, no. There are exceptions.

2. Great, me either.

3. Again there are exceptions to that.  Remember Jesus went into the most sacred place of the Jews and pretty much made such a spectacle of himself that the Synoptics portray that event as leading directly to his crucifixion.  Bottom line, he was protesting injustice and corruption.

4. Not sure what you mean by this, but if the goal is to raise public awareness then she is winning hands down.

5. Mike Norton is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by the hands of a currently serving Mission President who has never been reprimanded.

6. Norton understands deeply I would say.  They'll remain friends for a long time. Sad that support should come from Mike rather than many members. 

7. That's very gracious and condescending all at the same time.  I'd say she feels more empowered now than in the last 30 years. 

8. How have things improved in any real sense? 

 

[Calm]

“Again there are exceptions to that.  Remember Jesus went into the most sacred place of the Jews and pretty much made such a spectacle of himself that the Synoptics portray that event as leading directly to his crucifixion.  Bottom line, he was protesting injustice and corruption.“

And was he doing so in front of children?

[Calm]

“Mike Norton is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by the hands of a currently serving Mission President who has never been reprimanded.“

Has he named the man?  Offered evidence outside his own words? Sincere question, not challenge 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

“Mike Norton is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by the hands of a currently serving Mission President who has never been reprimanded.“

Has he named the man?  Offered evidence outside his own words? Sincere question, not challenge 

Yes he has publicly named him.

[Abulafia]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

“Again there are exceptions to that.  Remember Jesus went into the most sacred place of the Jews and pretty much made such a spectacle of himself that the Synoptics portray that event as leading directly to his crucifixion.  Bottom line, he was protesting injustice and corruption.“

And was he doing so in front of children?

That's a really interesting historical question! 

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Yes he has publicly named him.

And evidence?  When did he first make the claim?

Ano the other family members you state were also abused, have they come forward?

Edited September 8, 2018 by Calm

[Amulek]

25 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

1. Not normally, no. There are exceptions.

I have a pretty vivid imagination. I can think of an exception to almost every rule. It's one of my spiritual gifts.

However, the exception to the rule about using fast and testimony meeting to identify a "pedophile or sexual predator in [the congregation]" is going to be a really far out there scenario.

For example, if you witnessed someone being sexually assaulted in the foyer and were powerless to stop them then, sure, go ahead and interrupt the meeting and let everyone know. 

Barring that, or something similar, use a different channel.  

 

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2. Great, me either.

Excellent.

 

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3. Again there are exceptions to that.  Remember Jesus went into the most sacred place of the Jews and pretty much made such a spectacle of himself that the Synoptics portray that event as leading directly to his crucifixion.  Bottom line, he was protesting injustice and corruption.

I'm not saying it's never acceptable to disrupt a religious service. If there's a fire, then pull the fire alarm and disrupt the service. 

If somebody is having a heart attack, feel free to disrupt the service by screaming for someone to call an ambulance. 

But let's not for a moment pretend that what McKenna did here is in any way remotely comparable to Christ cleansing the temple. 

 

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4. Not sure what you mean by this, but if the goal is to raise public awareness then she is winning hands down.

Public awareness among whom? About what?

Outside of Utah, I guarantee nobody would even recognize her name unless they frequent message board like this one or others more hostile to the faith.

 

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5. Mike Norton is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by the hands of a currently serving Mission President who has never been reprimanded.

If you say so. 

As I said before though, if he really cared about McKenna he would be taking her to get professional help. Instead, he took her disrupt a religious service and pretty much guaranty that her ongoing litigation will fail. With friends like that...

 

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6. Norton understands deeply I would say.  They'll remain friends for a long time. Sad that support should come from Mike rather than many members. 

Judging by her behavior, she doesn't appear to be interested in support from many members.

 

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7. That's very gracious and condescending all at the same time.  I'd say she feels more empowered now than in the last 30 years. 

I think you're confusing her feeling important / wanted with a feeling of empowerment. 

In my opinion, the people who are taking her around to disrupt religious services are exploiting her emotional need to feel wanted and important, just like those in her past have done so in order to gain her attention and take advantage of her in other ways. 

Once the spotlight fades, she'll be left alone with the same problems she has now. What she really needs is professional help.

 

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8. How have things improved in any real sense? 

Seriously? Do you honestly think that if a recently returned sister missionary were to accuse the MTC president of rape today, that nothing would be done about it? 

 

[Prof]

19 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Yes he has publicly named him.

Do you know if he has sought redress? Sued? Filed charges? Anything like that? Sought church discipline on the perpetrator?

[Judd]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

And evidence?  When did he first make the claim?

Ano the other family members you state were also abused, have they come forward?

I would be interested in knowing this. As of his Mormon Stories interview back a year or so ago, he denied any negative experiences in the church until he went through the temple, and was also asked if there was ecclesiastical abuse (which I suppose could be more specific to not include a separate abuse), but he does not indicate that and denies any. Obviously not saying he couldn’t have come out since then but I’m not finding it.

[katherine the great]

5 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Well, I partly agree with you, (people wanting to be at church and worship in peace) but actually, if any church or organisation has a paedophile or sexual predator in it's midst, then I would personally want to know. 

 

If any organisation has historically given more protections and sympathies to paedophiles and sexual abusers, than it does to someone trying to make the church a safer place, then I would want to know.

 

McKenna is being interviewed for NBC, so my fb account tells me this morning. Her actions have garnered media attention and support. In that sense her actions have been a blazing success.

 

I think rather than going into defensive position, the church leadership should be asking what they can do to improve policies and cultural attitudes. They haven't done enough imho. The current policies, teachings, and procedures aren't enough either for victim or perpetrator.

 

 

 

To my knowledge he's not a pedophile. I believe he's in his eighties now so I doubt he is an active threat to any woman. That doesn't excuse him in any way. I support her recording her conversation with him (as documentation of her claim) and exposing him the way she originally did. I was initially very sympathetic with her cause but now I see an attention seeker--not a woman who is trying to fix a problem. I'm still extremely disturbed by her story and I tend to believe that Bishop did assault her in some way. Even if the church did know that he been guilty of sexual misconduct in the past, it isn't clear to me that he confessed to nonconsensual sexual misconduct. In my mind, there's a gigantic difference. If church leaders knew that he had forced himself on a woman and then put him in a leadership position, I would have a huge problem with that but I don't think that's the case. IIRC, he confessed to a short, consensual affair of sorts (I could be wrong--I haven't read all the reports). My problem at this point is with her increasingly radical method that includes forcing children to hear her account--it is not rational in the least and makes her look a bit crazy--not like a credible person who is trying to correct a problem.

[USU78]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

“Again there are exceptions to that.  Remember Jesus went into the most sacred place of the Jews and pretty much made such a spectacle of himself that the Synoptics portray that event as leading directly to his crucifixion.  Bottom line, he was protesting injustice and corruption.“

And was he doing so in front of children?

I seem to remember that Yeshua was both chosen by G-d and elected by us and endowed with authority to judge such things and choose such extreme teaching methods.

Who elected Denson?

[provoman]

.............

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by provoman

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

3. Again there are exceptions to that.  Remember Jesus went into the most sacred place of the Jews and pretty much made such a spectacle of himself that the Synoptics portray that event as leading directly to his crucifixion.  Bottom line, he was protesting injustice and corruption.

This is a very good point. Perhaps there are some circumstances that require the disruption of a holy place but this lady is not Jesus. In the temple story, the priests and officiators responsible for the corruption and injustice were His primary audience and they were there at the temple. They witnessed Jesus' actions. None of the General Authorities allegedly responsible for Bishop's actions were present at this sacrament meeting.  Maybe Bishop was there, but she's already confronted him in numerous ways. The people she was speaking to in his ward sacrament meeting were just completely innocent families and local leadership. Not the proper forum.

[provoman]

6 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

This is a very good point. Perhaps there are some circumstances that require the disruption of a holy place but this lady is not Jesus. In the temple story, the priests and officiators responsible for the corruption and injustice were His primary audience and they were there at the temple. They witnessed Jesus' actions. None of the General Authorities allegedly responsible for Bishop's actions were present at this sacrament meeting.  Maybe Bishop was there, but she's already confronted him in numerous ways. The people she was speaking to in his ward sacrament meeting were just completely innocent families and local leadership. Not the proper forum.

And lets us not forget that the Temple is The Lord's House, as master of the house it is His right to cleanse his house.

There is no comparison between the abusive stunt Mckeena did and Jesus clearing His house to renew its sacred holy purpose.

[Abulafia]

18 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I seem to remember that Yeshua was both chosen by G-d and elected by us and endowed with authority to judge such things and choose such extreme teaching methods.

Who elected Denson?

Actually, that doesn't work USU.  Jesus was not a priest and held no institional authority in the context of 1st Century Judaism.  

[Duncan]

https://www.gofundme.com/mtc-victims-legal-amp-travel-fund

 

I found this-were I donor I don't know how happy i'd be in knowing she went to Chandler, Arizona and not to these depositions and therapy sessions. How did she get the money to get to Arizona? I kind of wonder what kind of therapy she got in the past,when no one knew of her? like all of a sudden she needs this 4 days a week trauma therapy? I realize she didn't put this together but money is coming from somewhere for all this. Maybe someone drive her to Arizona, but if you can get to Arizona you can get to Utah, according to my handy dandy USA map. 

[provoman]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

 

Who elected Denson?

Ethan Krok - who posted a group photo - I believe taken outside the Church they invaded - with the following names attached

Bryce Phillips

Tricia Herber-Pruet

Tammy Jarman

Mckenna Denson

Edited September 8, 2018 by provoman

[provoman]

20 minutes ago, Duncan said:

https://www.gofundme.com/mtc-victims-legal-amp-travel-fund

 

I found this-were I donor I don't know how happy i'd be in knowing she went to Chandler, Arizona and not to these depositions and therapy sessions. How did she get the money to get to Arizona? I kind of wonder what kind of therapy she got in the past,when no one knew of her? like all of a sudden she needs this 4 days a week trauma therapy? I realize she didn't put this together but money is coming from somewhere for all this. Maybe someone drive her to Arizona, but if you can get to Arizona you can get to Utah, according to my handy dandy USA map. 

she had a campaign going - at some point - where a secret donor pledge to match donations. And if I recall correctly, this campaign started after NOVA withdrew a pledge of I think 50K

Edited September 8, 2018 by provoman

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Actually, that doesn't work USU.  Jesus was not a priest and held no institional authority in the context of 1st Century Judaism.  

You presume to put earthly institutional constraints on Him who created the earth as well as “worlds without number” and who is the Author of salvation for all mankind?

I was going to say good luck with that, but actually I don’t wish you luck with it. Rather, my wish is for you to come to your senses. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

And lets us not forget that the Temple is The Lord's House, as master of the house it is His right to cleanse his house.

There is no comparison between the abusive stunt Mckeena did and Jesus clearing His house to renew its sacred holy purpose.

I question whether what Jesus interrupted was a solemn, sacred, religious proceeding as opposed to crass, ad hoc, opportunistic merchandising. It’s a dumb comparison in any respect. 

[Judd]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I question whether what Jesus interrupted was a solemn, sacred, religious proceeding as opposed to crass, ad hoc, opportunistic merchandising. It’s a dumb comparison in any respect. 

Merchandising is where the real money in religion is made. 

 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I question whether what Jesus interrupted was a solemn, sacred, religious proceeding as opposed to crass, ad hoc, opportunistic merchandising. It’s a dumb comparison in any respect. 

I don't know...there are times when the Savior became angry.  Perhaps not in this way...but surely he understands the anger of McKenna..how any success of seeking justice has been taken away by the very pharisees of leaders that seek a different PR???