Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

[katherine the great]

28 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I disagree if it’s related to her specific abuse case.  It’s important to have closure and know that the abuser was held accountable for his actions.  

I agree. Ordinarily, how the church disciplines its members really should be between the member and the clergy, but there are exceptions. If there really is abuse going on, I think the victim has every reason to be concerned if no action is taken. If one of my children was abused by a religious authority figure and that person was allowed to continue as if nothing had happened I would be devastated. That would be a major stumbling block for me.

[Prof]

8 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

And what about what McKenna (June, before she changed her name) did to male missionionaries in the MTC and while on her mission? Does she just get a pass?

I think I missed this part of the story. Can you elaborate?

[Tacenda]

25 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

And what about what McKenna (June, before she changed her name) did to male missionionaries in the MTC and while on her mission? Does she just get a pass?

What??

[Calm]

In comments when it first broke out, someone claimed to be a missionary at the same time....message board, comments..., said her own behaviour with other missionaries was inappropriate.  Can't remember if it was anonymous or not.  You should be able to find it under June Hughes, her name at the time.

Found it:

https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/64368-the-mtc-abuse-story/?do=findComment&comment=963513

Found a later post from the same:

Quote

I have openly shared my experiences with Sister Hughes in the MTC, and even sent them to reporters who showed absolutely zero interest. Many of my posts on media sites were denied approval because I was "sharing information that was not included in the news articles". But the additional information that I am aware of is highly personal and should only be shared by those involved. Perhaps at some point it will have to come out, but I really would prefer that it didn't for the sake of all those who managed to move on in life.

My point is simply this - the story Ms. Denson told to the press and public about being an innocent and naive Sister missionary at the MTC that was groomed by a predator, and was then raped, is not an accurate or complete portrayal. She was an adult, and one who was sexually experienced and mature by her own admission. I would describe her as clever and wise to the world. Scheming and conniving would also unfortunately be words I would use to describe her. She actively and openly pursued Elders in the MTC and treated me with complete contempt when I confronted her and asked her to stop seeking out and physically touching an Elder in my district. These impressions are based on my own interactions with her at the MTC. Others may have had very different interactions and impressions. 

My prayer is that everyone involved can find a fair and private resolution grounded in humility, accountability, and forgiveness.

https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/65649-more-drama-from-june-hughesmckenna-denson/?do=findComment&comment=988746

Quote

Many of us have been interviewed by defense lawyers in the case, but none of the information has made it into the news. I think all the media outlets are afraid. In almost every news story, the first thing reporters do is seek out people who were there and ask about the applicable person - in this case Sister June Hughes. But not one article that I have seen has does this. I personally confronted this Sister because of her behavior toward an Elder in my district, and I know that several others were affected as well.

https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/65649-more-drama-from-june-hughesmckenna-denson/?do=findComment&comment=988579

If you click on his alias, pulls up more posts on Denson.

It was strange that this poster did post Denson's former name prior to it being released, iirc, especially if Denson's first unusual behaviour by her account started after she left the MTC while this poster claims he knew her at the MTC.

Here is that post:

https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/64368-the-mtc-abuse-story/?do=findComment&comment=961413

Not found anything that confirms the story, save the poster correctly guessed it was Denson making the accusation prior to her name being released.  The poster was a long time poster, so hadn't signed up just to discredit Denson.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

What??

Yeah. This one made me chuckle. McKenna was a really,  really pretty girl as a missionary. Stunning in fact. Did she *prey* on innocent missionaries? Nah. Do missionaries flirt with each other? Yep!.

 

 

[provoman]

...................................................

Edited September 9, 2018 by provoman

[ALarson]

12 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I agree. Ordinarily, how the church disciplines its members really should be between the member and the clergy, but there are exceptions. If there really is abuse going on, I think the victim has every reason to be concerned if no action is taken. If one of my children was abused by a religious authority figure and that person was allowed to continue as if nothing had happened I would be devastated. That would be a major stumbling block for me.

Yes, it's not accurate to state that it's none of Denson's business regarding what actions have been taken since she reported the abuse.  Of course, the actual disciplinary court is confidential (and she'd only know about any of it that she was involved in).  I would imagine she'd also end up knowing any decisions that were made (just through the grapevine....)..

Edited September 9, 2018 by ALarson

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

In comments when it first broke out, someone claimed to be a missionary at the same time....message board, comments..., said her own behaviour with other missionaries was inappropriate.  Can't remember if it was anonymous or not.  You should be able to find it under June Hughes, her name at the time.

Found it:

https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/64368-the-mtc-abuse-story/?do=findComment&comment=963513

Found a later post from the same:

https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/65649-more-drama-from-june-hughesmckenna-denson/?do=findComment&comment=988746

https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/65649-more-drama-from-june-hughesmckenna-denson/?do=findComment&comment=988579

If you click on her alias, pulls up more posts on Denson.

It was strange that this poster did post Denson's former name prior to it being released, iirc, especially if Denson's first unusual behaviour by her account started after she left the MTC while this poster claims she knew her at the MTC.

Here is that post:

https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/64368-the-mtc-abuse-story/?do=findComment&comment=961413

Not found anything that confirms the story, save the poster correctly guessed it was Denson making the accusation prior to her name being released.  The poster was a long time poster, so hadn't signed up just to discredit Denson.

Is it confirmed that the person with this knowledge is a woman?

[Scott Lloyd]

40 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Yeah. This one made me chuckle. McKenna was a really,  really pretty girl as a missionary. Stunning in fact. Did she *prey* on innocent missionaries? Nah. Do missionaries flirt with each other? Yep!.

 

 

It’s not the norm, nor is it in keeping with the sacredness of their calling. 

[Abulafia]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s not the norm, nor is it in keeping with the sacredness of their calling. 

Rubbish, Scott. You have been a missionary, right?  Maybe we have different definitions of *flirt*.  Friendly banter?

Look, the attempts to craft the narrative so that a young women is made a predator of innocent young male missionaries is, frankly, ridiculous.  

 

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Rubbish, Scott. You have been a missionary, right?  Maybe we have different definitions of *flirt*.  Friendly banter?

Look, the attempts to craft the narrative so that a young women is made a predator of innocent young male missionaries is, frankly, ridiculous.  

 

Any time a group of young men and young women get together, there's flirting or at least attention given.  I saw it a lot in the MTC and on my mission.  That doesn't mean it's inappropriate or that it went any further than what's been described.  I really dislike anyone trying to paint Denson as if this was unusual and it certainly isn't even close to being on the same level as the MTC president taking a sister missionary into the basement, into a secret room, and sexually abusing her.  It rises to attempting to blame the victim or inferring that she deserved to be abused, IMO (not blaming you here Calm as you've just reported what was posted....).

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Yeah. This one made me chuckle. McKenna was a really,  really pretty girl as a missionary. Stunning in fact. Did she *prey* on innocent missionaries? Nah. Do missionaries flirt with each other? Yep!.

 

 

And lots of missionary born marriages too. McKenna could have been above average in the flirtatious department, but I think it could be because she is a sexual abuse survivor and could have had a distorted view of what love means. And for sure in that MTC basement room, she didn't know how to cope exactly, since it's happened to her before. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Rubbish, Scott. You have been a missionary, right?  Maybe we have different definitions of *flirt*.  Friendly banter?

 

 

If “friendly banter” is all it is, then call it that. Don’t give it a quasi sexual connotation. 

You said: “Look, the attempts to craft the narrative so that a young women is made a predator of innocent young male missionaries is, frankly, ridiculous.“

I’m not addressing that. If you think that’s what’s going on here, then take it up with whomever it is you’re accusing. 

The bone I’m picking is your a’ priori insinuation that female-male flirtation is the norm among missionaries. That sets off the BS meter. 

[Scott Lloyd]

36 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Any time a group of young men and young women get together, there's flirting or at least attention given.  I saw it a lot in the MTC and on my mission.  That doesn't mean it's inappropriate or that it went any further than what's been described.  I really dislike anyone trying to paint Denson as if this was unusual and it certainly isn't even close to being on the same level as the MTC president taking a sister missionary into the basement, into a secret room, and sexually abusing her.  It rises to attempting to blame the victim or inferring that she deserved to be abused, IMO (not blaming you here Calm as you've just reported what was posted....).

 

Missionaries are expected to hold themselves to a higher standard, and my impression is that, for the most part, they do. If you say the contrary is true, you bear the burden to prove it. 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Missionaries are expected to hold themselves to a higher standard, and my impression is that, for the most part, they do.

 

That sounds good on paper (and I agree with the higher standards, of course).  But let's deal with reality.  It's very normal and there's nothing wrong with missionaries being human.  They aren't dead once they're called and they still have normal feelings and emotions (which they do their best to keep in check), but they still find each other attractive and there's friendly banter and flirtations that are normal.  If it goes much further than that, they need to stop.  But these are young men and young women with sexual feelings and emotions that don't get turned off once they're called on a mission.  Maybe you didn't feel any or notice the attractive sister missionaries and I'm sure there are others like you.  But that's not the norm...not from my experience on my mission and what I heard from my sons and other family members & friends who served..  

I'm not sure why this is even important to discuss.  Denson could have been flirting with male missionaries.  But that does not mean she deserved what happened to her at the hands of the president of the MTC nor was she asking for it simply because she may have been overly friendly to some of the other missionaries.  I have no idea if she was doing this, but it's not right to try to cast blame on the victim here, IMO.

Edited September 9, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That sounds good on paper (and I agree with the higher standards, of course).  But let's deal with reality.  It's very normal and there's nothing wrong with missionaries being human.  They aren't dead once they're called and they still have normal feelings and emotions (which they do their best to keep in check), but they still find each other attractive and there's friendly banter and flirtations that are normal.  If it goes much further than that, they need to stop.  But these are young men and young women with sexual feelings and emotions that don't get turned off once they're called on a mission.  Maybe you didn't feel any or notice the attractive sister missionaries and I'm sure there are others like you.  But that's not the norm...not from my experience on my mission and what I heard from my sons and other family members & friends who served..  

 

More bald assertion but nothing in the way of substantive evidence that "flirtation" (not mere feeling, but an overt act with its sexual overtones) is the norm (not merely an occasional occurrence) among missionaries. So I'll give this the credence that it deserves.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

More bald assertion but nothing in the way of evidence that "flirtation" (not mere feeling, but an overt act with its sexual overtones) is the norm among missionaries. So I'll give this the credence that it deserves.

Which is what?  If she flirted, then what?

I'd added this edit which is applicable, I think:

14 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I'm not sure why this is even important to discuss.  Denson could have been flirting with male missionaries.  But that does not mean she deserved what happened to her at the hands of the president of the MTC nor was she asking for it simply because she may have been overly friendly to some of the other missionaries.  I have no idea if she was doing this, but it's not right to try to cast blame on the victim here, IMO.

 

[JulieM]

21 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That sounds good on paper (and I agree with the higher standards, of course).  But let's deal with reality.  It's very normal and there's nothing wrong with missionaries being human.  They aren't dead once they're called and they still have normal feelings and emotions (which they do their best to keep in check), but they still find each other attractive and there's friendly banter and flirtations that are normal.  If it goes much further than that, they need to stop.  But these are young men and young women with sexual feelings and emotions that don't get turned off once they're called on a mission.  Maybe you didn't feel any or notice the attractive sister missionaries and I'm sure there are others like you.  But that's not the norm...not from my experience on my mission and what I heard from my sons and other family members & friends who served.

I just asked my husband about this and he laughed and said “Of course the guys noticed the sister missionaries!  I heard them discussed often, which ones they thought were attractive and pretty and so on.  There was friendly, innocent flirting.  We weren’t deaf, dumb and blind just because we’re on a mission”  

He said he never personally knew of anything that went past the innocent flirting.

Edited September 9, 2018 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, ALarson said:

Which is what?  If she flirted, then what?

I'd added this edit which is applicable, I think:

 

I've already said I'm not interested in discussing what Denson/Hughes did or did not do in the mission field. My point is to dispute the general, blanket assertion or insinuation that flirtation among missionaries is normal and proper. It's not.

In fact, beyond expressing disapproval of what she did at the fast and testimony meeting, I've held myself aloof from any discussion at all about Denson, and I intend to go on doing so.

Add on: And you really do become obnoxious when you veer off into personalizing arguments. There is nothing weird or abnormal about a missionary holding his feelings in check so as to avoid inappropriate behavior. So what I am like, or whether there are “others like [me]” is not germane to this conversation and is really none of your affair. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I just asked my husband about this and he laughed and said “Of course the guys noticed the sister missionaries!  I heard them discussed often, which ones they thought were attractive and pretty an so on.  There was friendly, innocent flirting.  We weren’t deaf, dumb and blind just because we’re on a mission”  

He said he never personally knew of anything that went past the innocent flirting.

Any behavior of a sexual nature, including flirtation, is not innocent for missionaries.

Edited to add: I think we need to establish what is under discussion here. Is it "friendly banter," or is it flirtation? I see a distinction.

Here is a Wikipedia definition of flirting:

Quote

Flirting or coquetry is a social and sexual behavior involving verbal or written communication, as well as body language, by one person to another, either to suggest interest in a deeper relationship with the other person, or if done playfully, for amusement.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

29 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I just asked my husband about this and he laughed and said “Of course the guys noticed the sister missionaries!  I heard them discussed often, which ones they thought were attractive and pretty and so on.  There was friendly, innocent flirting.  We weren’t deaf, dumb and blind just because we’re on a mission”  

He said he never personally knew of anything that went past the innocent flirting.

Yup.  Just think of how many come home and date each other (quite common from what I've seen).  Some even end up married.  It's naive to believe they didn't know there was an attraction or that feelings just "turned on" the second they were off their missions.  They each most likely knew there was an attraction, that the other was interested in them and also there most likely had been friendly flirting or attention during the mission, (but nothing inappropriate).  It's naive to believe this isn't going to take place when one considers the age of the youths serving missions.  

But bottom line regarding this discussion....

Even if Denson did step over the line (I haven't seen anything convincing me of that....but "IF"), that doesn't mean she deserved or asked for what took place in the basement with the MTC president.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

On 9/9/2018 at 11:55 AM, ALarson said:

Yup.  Just think of how many come home and date each other (quite common from what I've seen).  Some even end up married.  It's naive to believe they didn't know there was an attraction or that feelings just "turned on" the second they were off their missions.  They each most likely knew there was an attraction, that the other was interested in them and also there most likely had been friendly flirting or attention during the mission, (but nothing inappropriate). 

 

If a "feeling" was all it ever amounted to during the term of their mission, that is one thing. The moment it develops into an overt expression (flirtation), is the moment it becomes inappropriate.

Quote

It's naive to believe this isn't going to take place when one considers the age of the youths serving missions.  

It's not naive to believe that they will refrain from any expression of even an implied sexual nature. In fact, that is what they are expected to do.

That there are occasional violations of this expectation does not mean such violations are innocent" or "normal" or "not inappropriate".

Edited September 10, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

34 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But bottom line regarding this discussion....

Even if Denson did step over the line (I haven't seen anything convincing me of that....but "IF"), that doesn't mean she deserved or asked for what took place in the basement with the MTC president.

For sure!  Agreed.  What’s next?  Claiming her skirts were too tight or too short?

Edited September 9, 2018 by JulieM

[Calm]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Is it confirmed that the person with this knowledge is a woman?

My misreading, the poster's profile says "male".

[katherine the great]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

My misreading, the poster's profile says "male".

Makes sense. It would likely have been her district leader who would chastise her about inappropriately touching a male missionary in her group (when I say "inappropriately", I mean anything other than a handshake--not necessarily sexual in any way).